James Kolar's New Book Will Blow the Lid off the JonBenet Ramsey Investigation

[Venom]

KoldKase- Thank you! You are a wealth of information, and you put it out there so coherently.
:rockon:

 

[Venom]

Were these size 12 panties marked how PR marked all of their undies (date bought?) If JB wanted the pack of panties, why weren't they put in her drawer? Or even a pack bought in her size?

Sorry, my mind keeps thinking all these questions.

 

[DeeDee249]

Were these size 12 panties marked how PR marked all of their undies (date bought?) If JB wanted the pack of panties, why weren't they put in her drawer? Or even a pack bought in her size?

Sorry, my mind keeps thinking all these questions.

That's easy, They weren't in her drawer because they were never put in there. They weren't put in there because they were wrapped as a gift for JB's older cousin, to be mailed out after Patsy returned from the trip. It may very well be that a pack was bought in her own size- I cannot imagine Patsy not buying a pair for JB when she bough one for Jenny. They were not in her drawer either because I believe they, too had been wrapped as a gift. They may have been under the tree, among the opened presents still there on the 26th- not unusual to have presents under the tree for days after Christmas. I do nit believe police searched the presents under the tree for panties. They searched her room/bathroom.

 

[Chrishope]

Vernon,

Something to add to the confusion, re: size 12s.

PR said they had been placed in JBs drawer.

PR knew going into the interview that the panties were an issue (because the tabloids were already running stories about it before her police interview) and that she'd be asked about them.

PR knows the police have searched the house, and she knows if there were no size 12s in the underwear drawer that police know that.

Yet, she says they were placed in the underwear drawer.

It has always struck me that this is an instance where "Ramnesia" would have been useful. Yet she doesn't develop Ramnesia as she had done so many times, instead she says the size 12s had been in JBs drawer, knowing full well the police have searched the drawer, and that the size 12s are an important issue.

I can't help feeling she may have actually thought they were in the drawer. It's not necessarily the case, but it seems strange, to me, that she didn't just claim ignorance, or have some better story. Why lie to the police when they know full well you are lying?

Of course that leaves us with questions we can't answer. Were they really ever in the undie drawer? If so who took them out and why?

It just seems strange to lie about something the police can verify.

 

[Chelly]

Because I think there is a good chance the head-bash and Part One of staging began in JB's bedroom (after pineapple snack), I think the size 12's were in JB's panty drawer. JB was willful enough to demand that PR let her have them after first seeing the fresh pkg of big-girl panties. JMO.

I stand corrected. Chrishope just reminded us that police did not find the pkg of size 12's in JB's underwear drawer. Thus, the redressing most likely did not begin in JB's bedroom.

 

[Chrishope]

I stand corrected. Chrishope just reminded us that police did not find the pkg of size 12's in JB's underwear drawer. Thus, the redressing most likely did not begin in JB's bedroom.

They weren't found in the drawer, by police. (Assuming the public info is accurate) That doesn't mean they weren't there, but then someone had to remove them, which seems doubtful to me. But why would PR say they were in the drawer if she knew the police could not have found them in the drawer?

 

[midwest mama]

They weren't found in the drawer, by police. (Assuming the public info is accurate) That doesn't mean they weren't there, but then someone had to remove them, which seems doubtful to me. But why would PR say they were in the drawer if she knew the police could not have found them in the drawer?

If the panties had been in the drawer according to the account that Patsy gave, and JB WAS redressed in her room, whoever did the redressing could have easily gone to the underwear drawer in JB's bathroom looking for panties to put on her body.

Patsy had gathered clothing for both the Michigan trip and the Disney trip, and it would seem logical that she would have taken underwear for JB that were in the best condition and had the best fit and left behind the smaller sizes which were stained, or the larger new ones. If someone had only those types to chose from, and had planned to put long johns over them, I would think they might choose the larger new pair, with the others being too small and appearing soiled.

Since the package of panties was said to have been found and forwarded to LE sometime later, having been found in belongings of the Ramseys that had been packed for moving to Atlanta, and it was referred to as a PACKAGE, I can surmise the other pairs would have been remaining, with the Wednesdays gone. Would it be unreasonable to think whoever redressed JB with those panties might have considered that if her body was discovered by LE, they would be able to match up the pair found on her with the others in the package that they eventually would look for in the house? Wouldn't it then make a great deal of sense for the redresser to plan to try to stash that underwear PACKAGE somewhere LE might never think to look? Any place but back into the underwear drawer, at least! Like maybe into the bottom of a golf bag?

I'm afraid I have to agree with you about Patsy first telling police the panties were placed in the drawer. As far as she knew, they should have been when the house was searched, if they were there the night JB died and she had no involvement in the redressing.

Another thing to consider about the panty thing. The ones on JB were Wednesday - same day as 12/25/96. They would have been in the middle of the package, and IMO, under the duress of the redressing nearly anyone might have just taken the pair closest to the end of the row of panties in the package. I think only someone who almost always had an M.O. of functioning in a highly organized and functional capacity as a lifestyle would have had the innate ability to select the day that matched the holiday occasion.

Which of the 3 Ramseys there in the house that night had the greatest reputation for being detail oriented and functioning quite expediently in situations that might require calm, organized and collected choices.

 

[Chrishope]

If the panties had been in the drawer according to the account that Patsy gave, and JB WAS redressed in her room, whoever did the redressing could have easily gone to the underwear drawer in JB's bathroom looking for panties to put on her body.

Patsy had gathered clothing for both the Michigan trip and the Disney trip, and it would seem logical that she would have taken underwear for JB that were in the best condition and had the best fit and left behind the smaller sizes which were stained, or the larger new ones. If someone had only those types to chose from, and had planned to put long johns over them, I would think they might choose the larger new pair, with the others being too small and appearing soiled.

Since the package of panties was said to have been found and forwarded to LE sometime later, having been found in belongings of the Ramseys that had been packed for moving to Atlanta, and it was referred to as a PACKAGE, I can surmise the other pairs would have been remaining, with the Wednesdays gone. Would it be unreasonable to think whoever redressed JB with those panties might have considered that if her body was discovered by LE, they would be able to match up the pair found on her with the others in the package that they eventually would look for in the house? Wouldn't it then make a great deal of sense for the redresser to plan to try to stash that underwear PACKAGE somewhere LE might never think to look? Any place but back into the underwear drawer, at least! Like maybe into the bottom of a golf bag?

I'm afraid I have to agree with you about Patsy first telling police the panties were placed in the drawer. As far as she knew, they should have been when the house was searched, if they were there the night JB died and she had no involvement in the redressing.

Another thing to consider about the panty thing. The ones on JB were Wednesday - same day as 12/25/96. They would have been in the middle of the package, and IMO, under the duress of the redressing nearly anyone might have just taken the pair closest to the end of the row of panties in the package. I think only someone who almost always had an M.O. of functioning in a highly organized and functional capacity as a lifestyle would have had the innate ability to select the day that matched the holiday occasion.

Which of the 3 Ramseys there in the house that night had the greatest reputation for being detail oriented and functioning quite expediently in situations that might require calm, organized and collected choices.

If I understand correctly, you are saying the panties might have still been in the package, the package being in the drawer. I had not considered that. I just assumed that if they'd been placed in the drawer that they had been removed from the package. The package could have been removed easily.

The Wed pair might have been chosen by someone detail oriented as you suggest. Going along with the detail orientation, I think the Wed panties were selected by someone who mistakenly thought the Wed feature was important. I suspect the person who put them on either noticed that the original panties JB was wearing were "Wed" and thought he needed to "match" that, or just figured that JB rigidly followed the day of the week scheme - after all, why are they marked that way?

In reality of course the Wed feature is of no importance at all. Consistent with the overall story, they could have said the panties were changed when she was put to bed. Changed w/o regard to DOTW. Someone more familiar with dressing JB would have realized that DOTW probably wasn't adhered to very rigorously, especially with her soiling episodes - she'd quickly run out of the right day panties.

I tend to think the reason for the size 12s is that either nothing else was available, or nothing else could be obtained w/o risk. If nothing was available because they'd been packed away that would account for the lack of choice - but only if they were in a suitcase already on the plane. If they were packed in suitcases, but the suitcases were still in the home, then there's no reason a correct size pair couldn't have been chosen. If someone were in the basement and couldn't go upstairs for the correct size, the 12s might have been chosen for that reason.

It seems obvious that if JR and PR were in it together, correct size panties would have been selected unless they were physically not in the house. Since PR going to JBs undie drawer in the middle of the night would not have aroused suspicion, there is no reason in a PDI theory why the wrong size panties were used.


I don't think the panties are deliberate staging. There would be no reason for an intruder to wipe down JB or redress her at all, but even if he did that, why would he worry about the "Wed" marking? I think the panties are an attempt to restore her to her pre-murder pre-molestation state of dress, so far as was possible.

If she were redressed in the bedroom would that be prior to the molestation/mutilation? Was she redressed after some sexual activity then taken to the basement for the bloody molestation? Eseentially redressed twice?

 

[ozazure]

I think the newer nicer perhaps 8-10 undies were packed on the plane, hence the poor state of undies in the drawer. Maybe the too large ones were chosen for proximity (any Ramsey), for better condition (more likely patsy than john, but not Burke) or out of ignorance of what was reasonable for her to wear (not patsy). The big undies tell me nothing bar her original ones had to go.

 

[madeleine]

Another thing to consider about the panty thing. The ones on JB were Wednesday - same day as 12/25/96. They would have been in the middle of the package, and IMO, under the duress of the redressing nearly anyone might have just taken the pair closest to the end of the row of panties in the package. I think only someone who almost always had an M.O. of functioning in a highly organized and functional capacity as a lifestyle would have had the innate ability to select the day that matched the holiday occasion.

Which of the 3 Ramseys there in the house that night had the greatest reputation for being detail oriented and functioning quite expediently in situations that might require calm, organized and collected choices.

excellent point MM:goodpost:

and how can they claim JB picked that pair herself,she couldn't read ,or do they want me to believe this is another coincidence?

 

[midwest mama]

If I understand correctly, you are saying the panties might have still been in the package, the package being in the drawer. I had not considered that. I just assumed that if they'd been placed in the drawer that they had been removed from the package. The package could have been removed easily.

The Wed pair might have been chosen by someone detail oriented as you suggest. Going along with the detail orientation, I think the Wed panties were selected by someone who mistakenly thought the Wed feature was important. I suspect the person who put them on either noticed that the original panties JB was wearing were "Wed" and thought he needed to "match" that, or just figured that JB rigidly followed the day of the week scheme - after all, why are they marked that way?

In reality of course the Wed feature is of no importance at all. Consistent with the overall story, they could have said the panties were changed when she was put to bed. Changed w/o regard to DOTW. Someone more familiar with dressing JB would have realized that DOTW probably wasn't adhered to very rigorously, especially with her soiling episodes - she'd quickly run out of the right day panties.

I tend to think the reason for the size 12s is that either nothing else was available, or nothing else could be obtained w/o risk. If nothing was available because they'd been packed away that would account for the lack of choice - but only if they were in a suitcase already on the plane. If they were packed in suitcases, but the suitcases were still in the home, then there's no reason a correct size pair couldn't have been chosen. If someone were in the basement and couldn't go upstairs for the correct size, the 12s might have been chosen for that reason.

It seems obvious that if JR and PR were in it together, correct size panties would have been selected unless they were physically not in the house. Since PR going to JBs undie drawer in the middle of the night would not have aroused suspicion, there is no reason in a PDI theory why the wrong size panties were used.


I don't think the panties are deliberate staging. There would be no reason for an intruder to wipe down JB or redress her at all, but even if he did that, why would he worry about the "Wed" marking? I think the panties are an attempt to restore her to her pre-murder pre-molestation state of dress, so far as was possible.

If she were redressed in the bedroom would that be prior to the molestation/mutilation? Was she redressed after some sexual activity then taken to the basement for the bloody molestation? Eseentially redressed twice?

Is it impossible to think that JB might have been cognizant following a sexual encounter and could have asked specifically for the size 12s during a cleanup. If there was a history of daddy love or even sibling incest that she was trained to accept as normal, it's conceivable to me that she would expect a cleanup.

I wonder if the inner thigh bruises and some of the internal vaginal damage evident during the autopsy happened on the 23rd, prompting the 911 call that day. If so, a digital penetration on the 25/26 might easily explain her suffering enough pain to cause the molester to want to placate her as much as possible....I.e. use the new, clean panties, go downstairs with her to look back over Christmas toys or wait for another visit from Santa? How about allowing a pinch of the pineapple left there on the table from Burke's earlier snack?

What if the molester then thought some additional sexual activity would be in order and that's what caused JB to fight and scream prompting the head blow? Once felled she could have been taken to the basement where the jabbing and strangulation took place?

 

[Chrishope]

I think the newer nicer perhaps 8-10 undies were packed on the plane, hence the poor state of undies in the drawer. Maybe the too large ones were chosen for proximity (any Ramsey), for better condition (more likely patsy than john, but not Burke) or out of ignorance of what was reasonable for her to wear (not patsy). The big undies tell me nothing bar her original ones had to go.

The size 12s tell us that either correct sizing was never considered, which I'd find strange, or that there was some reason to prefer the 12s to the available 6s.

In a JR/PR joint venture, or in PDI, there would seem to be no reason 6s couldn't be retrieved from the underwear drawer.

In BDI/JDI the 6s may not have been available w/o running the risk of being caught going through JBs underwear drawer. Might be hard to explain. (PR doing the same would probably not arouse suspicion).

In BDI/JDI the panties, might have been used simply because they were close at hand and covering her up was the urgency of the moment.

IMO it's unlikely the 12s were chosen to further the intruder theory. Why would an intruder wipe her down, redress her, and fuss about the Wed. label ? And if he did all that why would he select size 12s.

I tend to think the 12s were used because they were close at hand, and/or because getting the 6s from the drawer was too risky.

I keep coming back to PR's claim that the 12s were in the drawer. It's such an odd thing to tell police when she'd know they had searched the drawer and knew, if the 12s were never there, that the police would know that. It seems likely to me that PR was telling what she understood to be the truth.

Veering a bit, Panties of any size/dotw do not contribute to the kidnapping scenario, other than she should have panties on if that's what she actually wore to bed. Panties don't contribute to the sex killer angle either, in fact they tend to make us ask why an intruder would bother. I think the panties were an effort to cover the body and nothing more.

 

[Chrishope]

Is it impossible to think that JB might have been cognizant following a sexual encounter and could have asked specifically for the size 12s during a cleanup. If there was a history of daddy love or even sibling incest that she was trained to accept as normal, it's conceivable to me that she would expect a cleanup.

Could be I guess. Hadn't thought of that. I'm sort of assuming the bloody vaginal injuries were not part of any "daddy love" activities, so that would mean she'd been redressed in 12s after "daddy love" then undressed for the mutilation, then the 12s put back on. Possible I suppose.

I wonder if the inner thigh bruises and some of the internal vaginal damage evident during the autopsy happened on the 23rd, prompting the 911 call that day. If so, a digital penetration on the 25/26 might easily explain her suffering enough pain to cause the molester to want to placate her as much as possible....I.e. use the new, clean panties, go downstairs with her to look back over Christmas toys or wait for another visit from Santa? How about allowing a pinch of the pineapple left there on the table from Burke's earlier snack?

Well, I tend to think nothing very serious happened on the 23rd. Yes there was a 911 call, but a party is a strange venue committing a sexual assault - too many witnesses. I can't account for the 911 call, but injuries that would make her yell and scream, unless her mouth were covered, during a party seems unlikely to me. Also there is a great chance of her telling someone, there being a house full of guests to tell. And where would an assault take place during a party? Would someone notice the host was absent? If it wasn't the host where would the perp take her where he could be sure no one would walk in on them?

What if the molester then thought some additional sexual activity would be in order and that's what caused JB to fight and scream prompting the head blow? Once felled she could have been taken to the basement where the jabbing and strangulation took place?

Possible.

 

[traacker13]

I am new to this section on web sleuths but have been a web sleuths member for awhile. Please redirect me if I put this in the wrong spot, but I just finished James Kolar's book and I had some questions that I am hoping someone is able to help shed some light on. I apologize if these have been asked previously (I am sure some most definitely have):

- If JR and PR were "accessories after the fact" why then would PR be wearing the same clothes as she was the night before? Especially, as it has been noted that PR took special notice of her appearance and would never be known to wear the same clothes two days in a row according to friends. If PR hadn't been awake during the murder, why then would she still be in the same clothes?

-Why also would PR's DNA be found on the bowl of pineapple in the kitchen? Would she typically feed her kids late at night and then go up to bed without ensuring that both were asleep before going to bed herself (leaving opportunity for BR and JBR to be alone downstairs)? And even if she did feed them pineapple and tuck both kids in bed, why deny that she did serve JBR pineapple?

-Why would the light be on in JBR's room if she were asleep when they came home? If PR went to check on JBR and noticed she wasn't there, would she think to turn the light on in her room if it were morning and she was able to see that she wasn't there? Would a child think to turn the light on in her room if the intent were to go downstairs?

-When did JR and PR typically take showers? Was JR known to take a shower in the morning? Why would JR take a shower and PR not take a shower? Again, especially if she has been noted to take special notice of her appearance.

-What was JR wearing when police arrived? Was it what he typically wore?

-The order of events indicates that the sexual assault using the paint brush occured after the traumatic head injury. The sequence also points to strangulation occuring after the head injury as well. What point would strangulation serve at such a late point after her head injury? Why such a large gap in between the blow to the head and the strangulation? Was the blow to subdue her?

-Why would both JBR and BR exhibit signs of bed-wetting at ages six and nine? Wouldn't that possibly point to both of them being sexually abused?

-Who redressed and wiped down JBR?

-In the phone call to 911 when PR ends the call but it stays on-line for a few seconds and you can hear the conversation between them, why does the supposed voice of BR ask "What did you find?" What is BR referring too and why is JR not "speaking to him"?

-Why was the half unwrapped present in the basement? Could this have possibly been a bribe? It was noted that the wrapping paper on the present was the same wrapping paper used on the presents that were unwrapped on Christmas day of 1996.

 

[midwest mama]

Could be I guess. Hadn't thought of that. I'm sort of assuming the bloody vaginal injuries were not part of any "daddy love" activities, so that would mean she'd been redressed in 12s after "daddy love" then undressed for the mutilation, then the 12s put back on. Possible I suppose.



Well, I tend to think nothing very serious happened on the 23rd. Yes there was a 911 call, but a party is a strange venue committing a sexual assault - too many witnesses. I can't account for the 911 call, but injuries that would make her yell and scream, unless her mouth were covered, during a party seems unlikely to me. Also there is a great chance of her telling someone, there being a house full of guests to tell. And where would an assault take place during a party? Would someone notice the host was absent? If it wasn't the host where would the perp take her where he could be sure no one would walk in on them?

Possible.

Re possible party activity: There was a published account of JB appearing very unhappy during the party. An assault against her that day might have easily involved multiple persons. There were at least a dozen young people in attendance and some guests who weren't in the usual reported circle of Ramsey friends. Could they have sequestered themselves away from crowd notice? Do you recall that the house was considered a maze and have you ever tried to keep your eyes everywhere during a major holiday party with that many people involved in activities, eating, etc?? No doubt in my mind it could have happened. Especially to a child who was trained to accept that behavior.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Re possible party activity: There was a published account of JB appearing very unhappy during the party. An assault against her that day might have easily involved multiple persons. There were at least a dozen young people in attendance and some guests who weren't in the usual reported circle of Ramsey friends. Could they have sequestered themselves away from crowd notice? Do you recall that the house was considered a maze and have you ever tried to keep your eyes everywhere during a major holiday party with that many people involved in activities, eating, etc?? No doubt in my mind it could have happened. Especially to a child who was trained to accept that behavior.

Why do you think any possible assault had to involve multiple persons (more than two)?

 

[Nom de plume]

RE the size 12s. For all of Patsy's changing her stories, Ramnesia, etc it does seem odd that she was clear that the package of size 12s was in JB's underwear drawer. So for once, it would seem she was telling the truth. IF they were there, I would presume they were probably still in the package. Why take them out if they were too big for her? Might as well wait until she grew into them.

The other possibility is that they were out of the package to be worn over the pull-ups. It's been said that her bedwetting had subsided for a while, then started up again. Maybe PR bought the 12s for her to spare her the embarrassment of wearing pull-ups at her age.

Either way, they weren't there when LE checked. If they were to hide the pull-ups I don't see any reason to remove the rest of them. For that matter, why take them out even if they were still in the package? I can't see any reason to remove them regardless of the reason they might have been there.

So having said all this, the only thing that makes sense to me is that the pair JB was wearing when she was found came from the package wrapped for PR's niece and left in the WC.

Regardless of where they came from, or who they belonged to, why make the rest of them disappear? There must be some reason that we're just not seeing. I can't remember, did LE find the package of 12's that were wrapped for the niece in the WC?

 

[UKGuy]

RE the size 12s. For all of Patsy's changing her stories, Ramnesia, etc it does seem odd that she was clear that the package of size 12s was in JB's underwear drawer. So for once, it would seem she was telling the truth. IF they were there, I would presume they were probably still in the package. Why take them out if they were too big for her? Might as well wait until she grew into them.

The other possibility is that they were out of the package to be worn over the pull-ups. It's been said that her bedwetting had subsided for a while, then started up again. Maybe PR bought the 12s for her to spare her the embarrassment of wearing pull-ups at her age.

Either way, they weren't there when LE checked. If they were to hide the pull-ups I don't see any reason to remove the rest of them. For that matter, why take them out even if they were still in the package? I can't see any reason to remove them regardless of the reason they might have been there.

So having said all this, the only thing that makes sense to me is that the pair JB was wearing when she was found came from the package wrapped for PR's niece and left in the WC.

Regardless of where they came from, or who they belonged to, why make the rest of them disappear? There must be some reason that we're just not seeing. I can't remember, did LE find the package of 12's that were wrapped for the niece in the WC?

Nom de plume,
If the evidence is in conflict with some theory what should be revised?

Patsy told lies about the size-12's simply because she thought she was protecting another R, with a believable version of events.

Her interview answers are enough to suggest who else was involved.


.

 

[Nom de plume]

Nom de plume,
If the evidence is in conflict with some theory what should be revised?

Patsy told lies about the size-12's simply because she thought she was protecting another R, with a believable version of events.

Her interview answers are enough to suggest who else was involved.


.

How is what she said about the size 12s protecting anyone? She said they were in the drawer and they weren't. How does that protect BR?

Her answers suggest TO YOU that she was protecting BR, but they don't suggest that to me. Sounds to me like you're the one making the evidence fit the theory here UK, not me. I honestly don't have any idea why she said what she did, or how it fits into any theory, yours, mine or anyone else's.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Let's assume BDI, and after JR departs this world, BR confesses in an attempt to clear his conscience, what could he possibly be charged with?

Not one damn thing. Burke missed it by three weeks.