Japan - Miyazawa family of 4 murdered, Setagaya, Tokyo, 30 Dec 2000 #2

[Justoneoftheguests]

3 of the murders happened right outside the bathroom. Which is where the ladder was heard. The central problem remains: the ladder is heard but three people being ripped apart is not. With respect, there is a reason this makes no sense to the first detective querying this, as well as my sound engineer.

No access is permitted. In theory, the house no longer belongs to An Irie either but she still had the keys and nobody had the heart to forbid her entry.

He is possibly wrong, of course. But he lives in Japan in a similar home and he was looking at the video of the interior as he inspected the exterior. He’s knowledgeable about soundproofing *in Japan.* The Chief and subsequent detectives are possibly wrong. But I don’t see there’s a great deal to substantiate that beyond the possibility that sound can behave in unexpected ways.

Could it be that the ladder is also physically attached to the house so sound travels due to vibrations in this way more easily than a scream etc would travel through the air.

Edited to add: Apologies as I posted this before reading the extensive discussion. I do still think this is a potential explanation (at least in part) and I do speak with some knowledge (I have two degrees related to acoustics- I won’t specify what exactly for privacy).

 

[FacelessPodcast]

Could it be that the ladder is also physically attached to the house so sound travels due to vibrations in this way more easily than a scream etc would travel through the air.

The stairs and the walls are too. And as I say, I highly doubt it was only screams. We know there was a struggle with Mikio, I wouldn’t be surprised if Yasuko did too. The space is narrow, almost every surface is wood. Mikio is pushed down the stairs. The detectives are saying it doesn’t make sense. My sound engineer is saying it doesn’t make sense. Of course, playing devil’s advocate is the lifeblood of WS. But those opinions from the professionals are founded on being at the house itself, doing actual experiments.

 

[Justoneoftheguests]

For me the 50min gap is actually extremely surprising and I’m still really stuck on it.

While people do act in unusual ways in times of extreme stress (such as not calling police straight away) I find it very hard to understand that she didn’t even return home during this time. She appears from what I read to have just stayed in the house (with multiple violently murdered family members) for nearly an hour.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

The stairs are directly next to loft ladder. You can see them in my image. How is it Mikio crashing down them cannot be heard but the ladder directly next to them can be?
All we have is the report from the Irie’s who, according to reports, didn’t hear it.

RSBM

Although the loft ladder is "next to" the bathroom and the stairs when it's pulled down onto the landing, it's actually connected to a completely different part of the house structure. The loft ladder closes up into the ceiling; the stairs are on the ground floor and first floor landing. Structurally, they're not "next to" each other at all. They're on completely different floors of the house.

 

[Justoneoftheguests]

The stairs and the walls are too. And as I say, I highly doubt it was only screams. We know there was a struggle with Mikio, I wouldn’t be surprised if Yasuko did too. The space is narrow, almost every surface is wood. Mikio is pushed down the stairs. The detectives are saying it doesn’t make sense. My sound engineer is saying it doesn’t make sense. Of course, playing devil’s advocate is the lifeblood of WS. But those opinions from the professionals are founded on being at the house itself, doing actual experiments.

Yes but in this situation it would be a body against a physical part of the house (so one part is connected to the house, one part not) where as the ladder is two parts of the house. Plus two solid objects (such as wooden stairs against a wooden floor) would cause greater vibration than a body against the floor.

I don’t think it makes sense that other sounds weren’t heard either BUT I can understand acoustically why if there was soundproofing that sound would potentially be louder than other sounds described, and if people were sleeping, that might have been the tipping point.

Without rubbing actual testing IN the house I think it’s impossible to say given they had added soundproofing.

Personally my gut feeling is they either didn’t hear any sounds (& the staircase sound is a red herring/coincidence) or they did hear sounds but brushed them off as nothing and after discovering what has happened now feel extreme guilt and do not wish to disclose/discuss. Or, they don’t wish to have to disclose why that type of noise coming from the house wouldn’t raise suspicions from them as they feel it would place shame on the family.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

The stairs are on the opposite side of the house, so I think it's possible nothing was heard from the struggle on them. Was Niina dragged across the loft and down the ladder? I thought it was believed Yasuko and Niina came down the ladder voluntarily when they thought the killer had gone? Maybe I've misunderstood that detail; hopefully @FacelessPodcast can clarify that.

The stairs are not, they’re right there in the photo. Niina was carried down the ladder by her mother as best she could, who herself was losing a lot of blood. Carrying a weight down a ladder like that at the best of times is difficult, let alone a child while you’re badly injured. I have a very similar attic ladder at my parents house and it is loud and rickety, particularly when carrying my bag up and down it. As I understand it, Niina is both stabbed and beaten upstairs and then afterwards downstairs at the foot of that ladder.

Do we even know the bathroom window was open at the time of the murders? If the killer entered by the window, it would be open. But if he left by the window, or opened it to leave a false trail, it might not have been open until *after* the family were dead.

The bathroom window was open, almost certainly. The fly screen was removed. We don’t know if this was the killer but if so, it’s possible he was considering entering that way. There were also footprints on the ground beneath the window. However, there is no evidence showing he did enter that way. There would’ve been footprints almost certainly (with mud on them) as per the reconstruction posted by Incoherent. Moreover, it would have made a lot of noise. He had enough time to strangle Rei, my view is that he took the much quieter route. It is almost impossible the killer left by the window given there is zero trace of him there post the murders. His gloves almost certainly come off after stabbing Mikio. Given how careless he was with all the other evidence he leaves, why would he open the window to confuse to police as to his point of exit?

Presumably we don't even know exactly when during the attack the loft ladder was heard slamming shut.

11pm, give or take a few minutes.

Did Yasuko shut it in an attempt to keep the killer out of the loft?

No.

Did the killer slam it shut because it was getting in the way?

Given the blood, I think he did this when everyone was dead.

Were the family alive or already dead when that sound was heard? If the bang of the ladder was early in the attack, you might expect people who had been woken by it to hear what happened afterwards. But if it was slammed shut *after* the attack, anyone woken by it would hear nothing because by that time the family were already dead.

Yes, the family died within that 10:38pm-11pm window.

I don't know if I believe the Iries story. All of my posts have been playing Devil's Advocate, trying to think of reasons why they might not have heard anything.

The Iries claim they were woken by a single loud thud and heard nothing else. It's unlikely the attack was totally silent, but at the same time it seems like that single thud *must* have been the loudest of the noises. Otherwise it makes no sense for the TMPD to single out the loft ladder as the cause of it. If there were other loud noises during the TMPD's experiments, how did they conclude the Iries had heard the loft ladder and not something else?

The TMPD are saying that the single loud bang was only recreated by that ladder. We don’t know the quality or description of it. I can tell you that the Chief was totally satisfied with that part of it. What he is not satisfied by, is that was purportedly the *only* sound. That to me suggests that they were unable to recreate or stage the murders in such a fashion were silence reigned.

Maybe the Iries really did simply sleep through everything, as difficult as that might be to believe.

Yes, for sure. As I’ve said many times, it’s very possible. It’s just hard to envisage that in that single 20 minute window, they slept through everything but the ladder.

 

[Incoherent]

RSBM

Although the loft ladder is "next to" the bathroom and the stairs when it's pulled down onto the landing, it's actually connected to a completely different part of the house structure. The loft ladder closes up into the ceiling; the stairs are on the ground floor and first floor landing. Structurally, they're not "next to" each other at all. They're on completely different floors of the house.

As I have been saying this isn’t a question of why the loft ladder was audible. It is very obvious why and it was reported as such. It is more of a question of why wasn’t anything else at all heard given the circumstances. No other noise at all was apparently reported as being heard.

Personally my gut feeling is they either didn’t hear any sounds (& the staircase sound is a red herring/coincidence) or they did hear sounds but brushed them off as nothing and after discovering what has happened now feel extreme guilt and do not wish to disclose/discuss. Or, they don’t wish to have to disclose why that type of noise coming from the house wouldn’t raise suspicions from them as they feel it would place shame on the family.

Some good points here.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

At any rate, none of us know what went on in either house or the experiments. I don’t think the concerns of the chief / LE around the silence story is going to be based on some sort of acoustic misunderstanding, though.

 

[Janitor101]

Double post. I'm a dork....

 

[FacelessPodcast]

Or, they don’t wish to have to disclose why that type of noise coming from the house wouldn’t raise suspicions from them as they feel it would place shame on the family.

RSBM: I have definitely wondered about this before myself. As I say, An has expressed guilt over that soundproofing. Yet LE / my engineer doubts the soundproofing could’ve blocked out the sound. Perhaps it’s possible they did hear it but didn’t want to get involved / realise it was an intruder. The regret would be entirely understandable JMO

 

[Justoneoftheguests]

What is also interesting is that the killer seemingly had no significant fear of the neighbours coming in to see what all the noise was about. He continued to noisily rummage through drawers, pull things apart etc.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

The photos you posted really brought to life how small a space these murders occurred in.

I thought from other photos posted elsewhere on this thread, that the bathroom window faced the back of the house where a rose bush was growing, and a park was beyond the fence.

After reading your post, does the bathroom share a wall with the grandmother's house? And are there any photos I may have missed on this thread?

So the

Early on in Thread 1 you can see both photos and a video of An walking the house. I think the small, cramped feeling of the house is misunderstood by some people only seeing photos. An even says in that video she wants people to understand how they (Miyazawas) lived

 

[FacelessPodcast]

What is also interesting is that the killer seemingly had no significant fear of the neighbours coming in to see what all the noise was about. He continued to noisily rummage through drawers, pull things apart etc.

This has been part of the paradox and, I am guessing, part of the Chief’s concern. My best guess: he figured he hadn’t been caught by 11pm so no one was coming. Or he was losing blood and not in a right state of mind to make good choices. Maybe he heard silence on the other side of the wall? Maybe he watched both houses and figured the lights were off chez Irie so he could pull this off without making noise? Whichever way you slice it, it’s weird.

 

[Janitor101]

Some interesting conversations going on!

Here’s an image to help with proximity and why I find it odd the ladder was heard but nothing else was. The circles are where the 3 family members were found dead:

View attachment 496596

The bathroom is right next to where Mikio, Niina, and Yasuko were all killed and the window was open.
I believe it was determined that Mikio also fell down the stairs as he was lying at the bottom of it.
There was a lot of noise going on in the same vicinity and yet only the ladder was supposedly heard.
The bathroom also partially shares a wall with next door and has a window from the other side close to it too. I wonder if anyone was in there and still couldn’t hear anything?

It’s a lot of luck for the killer… but then I feel I’ve never read about a luckier killer ever than this one.

Thanks for this photo,

Some interesting conversations going on!

Here’s an image to help with proximity and why I find it odd the ladder was heard but nothing else was. The circles are where the 3 family members were found dead:

View attachment 496596

The bathroom is right next to where Mikio, Niina, and Yasuko were all killed and the window was open.
I believe it was determined that Mikio also fell down the stairs as he was lying at the bottom of it.
There was a lot of noise going on in the same vicinity and yet only the ladder was supposedly heard.
The bathroom also partially shares a wall with next door and has a window from the other side close to it too. I wonder if anyone was in there and still couldn’t hear anything?

It’s a lot of luck for the killer… but then I feel I’ve never read about a luckier killer ever than this one.

This photo really captures how confining a space these murders occurred in.


Is it true that the bathroom window shared a wall with the grandmother's house? In a photo I've seen previously on this thread, this window backed up to a fence with a rose bush which then backed up to a park?

Any photos would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Justoneoftheguests]

This has been part of the paradox and, I am guessing, part of the Chief’s concern. My best guess: he figured he hadn’t been caught by 11pm so no one was coming. Or he was losing blood and not in a right state of mind to make good choices. Maybe he heard silence on the other side of the wall? Maybe he watched both houses and figured the lights were off chez Irie so he could pull this off without making noise? Whichever way you slice it, it’s weird.

I feel like he either had good reason to know no one was going to come or he actually did not care at all if he was caught (he was in such a rage/irrational state etc).

I know you have a POI and he isn’t specifically connected to the family but I really feel that there is either something SERIOUSLY off about the murderer (as in significant mental illness- as we know he wasn’t on drugs etc, although could he have been on something that wasn’t tested for?) or he is connected to the family and this is intensely personal.

(I realise there is obviously something seriously off about any murderer, but this case has some very very weird aspects that normally would scream drug influenced or mental health related).

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

The stairs are not, they’re right there in the photo. Niina was carried down the ladder by her mother as best she could, who herself was losing a lot of blood. Carrying a weight down a ladder like that at the best of times is difficult, let alone a child while you’re badly injured. I have a very similar attic ladder at my parents house and it is loud and rickety, particularly when carrying my bag up and down it. As I understand it, Niina is both stabbed and beaten upstairs and then afterwards downstairs at the foot of that ladder.

Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to the stairs being on the opposite side of the house to the Irie house. The Irie house is to the left of the Miyazawa house, and the stairs are to the right. I, too, have a loft ladder, and it makes the most noise if I don't close it carefully, because as it slams up into position it shakes the whole ceiling. Which seems to be what the Iries heard.

The bathroom window was open, almost certainly. The fly screen was removed. We don’t know if this was the killer but if so, it’s possible he was considering entering that way. There were also footprints on the ground beneath the window. However, there is no evidence showing he did enter that way. There would’ve been footprints almost certainly (with mud on them) as per the reconstruction posted by Incoherent. Moreover, it would have made a lot of noise. He had enough time to strangle Rei, my view is that he took the much quieter route. It is almost impossible the killer left by the window given there is zero trace of him there post the murders. His gloves almost certainly come off after stabbing Mikio. Given how careless he was with all the other evidence he leaves, why would he open the window to confuse to police as to his point of exit?

This has always confused me, because if he took the time to cut out the fly screen and open the window, why NOT enter through it? And as you say, why create a false lead when so much other evidence has been left behind. The logical conclusion is that he did either enter or leave by the window, despite the total lack of trace evidence of him having done so. Exactly when the window was opened could also make a difference to what would or wouldn't have been heard.

11pm, give or take a few minutes.

No.

Given the blood, I think he did this when everyone was dead.

Yes, the family died within that 10:38pm-11pm window.

The TMPD are saying that the single loud bang was only recreated by that ladder. We don’t know the quality or description of it. I can tell you that the Chief was totally satisfied with that part of it. What he is not satisfied by, is that was purportedly the *only* sound. That to me suggests that they were unable to recreate or stage the murders in such a fashion were silence reigned.

Yes, for sure. As I’ve said many times, it’s very possible. It’s just hard to envisage that in that single 20 minute window, they slept through everything but the ladder.

Thank you for clarifying. The ladder being slammed shut *after* the family were dead means it was likely the final "loud" (loud being relative) sound made by the killer. So if it *was* the first sound the Iries heard, they wouldn't have heard anything else afterwards. Could they have genuinely slept through everything that happened before? Only the Iries know.

 

[fridaybaker]

The stairs are directly next to loft ladder. You can see them in my image. How is it Mikio crashing down them cannot be heard but the ladder directly next to them can be?
All we have is the report from the Irie’s who, according to reports, didn’t hear it.

“Dragged” is more my own wording to be honest. But Yasuko and Niina were stabbed in the bed in the loft before making their way down the ladder. I’m not sure what else to describe a stabbed and bleeding 8 year old moving across the loft floor and down a ladder with her mother other than “dragged”. Highly doubt Niina was walking by herself at this point, more so her mother using her strength to try and get her out of there.

Maybe because they were sound asleep, and it wasn't so much the decibel of the sounds heard/not heard, but the intensity and pitch. So, there's struggling, perhaps screaming going on, but it doesn't register in the sleeping persons' ears. However, at some point, the slamming of the ladder going up into place registers because it's a single slam at a certain, critical pitch, along with felt reverberations. Enough to register, but not enough to fully awaken, the sleepers, who easily and quickly drift back to deep sleep.

Don't know, but possible?

 

[fridaybaker]

Regarding the killer staying in the house and seemingly being unconcerned about the neighbors hearing him slaughtering four people, I seem to remember Nic saying something about how some first-time killers react to their crimes. They're stunned by the level of violence, and never commit another murder. Perhaps the killer here was physically done in and mentally stunned at what he'd done and simply couldn't gather himself mentally/emotionally to leave. As luck would have it, no one next door had indeed heard, so weren't phoning LE.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

As I have been saying this isn’t a question of why the loft ladder was audible. It is very obvious why and it was reported as such. It is more of a question of why wasn’t anything else at all heard given the circumstances. No other noise at all was apparently reported as being heard.

That's exactly what I have (seemingly unsuccessfully) been trying to explain.

Your contention is that if one sound was heard, others should have been also. But it's not necessarily that simple. The loft ladder was likely heard because of a combination of factors specific to the loft ladder.

Those exact factors most likely don't apply to any other person, object, or part of the house. Different floor levels, different wooden beams, different acoustics, echoes, resonances, amplification and propagation of the sound.

None of that means other sounds *wouldn't* have been audible. I'm just saying we don't know. The only people who really know are the TMPD investigators who conducted experiments in the house. But whilst we know they had concerns, they've never published the full results of those experiments so we can see precisely what those concerns were.

 

[Sor Juana]

This video captures a nighttime stroll through Setagaya. Despite the late hour, the streets appear bustling with activity, with many people still out and about. The video also features scenes of train stations and trains.