JonBenet's Skull Fractures: The Weapon

[BOESP]

The injuries and circumstances of JonBenet's death are all consistent with Steve Thomas's theory as presented in his book and his television face-offs with the Ramseys.

Kolar presents another possibility but I don't agree with his opinion on a lot of the things he lays at Burke's feet as stated in his book.

Linda Arndt thinks John Ramsey did it (or did at the last public report). I can see why she thinks that but based on observing Ramsey in the beginning (on television) and his statements I sit on the fence.

It has never been proved or forensically stated as fact that JonBenet was hit with an object. Also, Patsy's stated corporal cleanings could account for the genital damage done to JonBenet.

Steve Thomas's theory still seems the most plausible to me but the only things I'm certain of is that Patsy wrote the note and she and John know what happened.

 

[DeeDee249]

The injuries and circumstances of JonBenet's death are all consistent with Steve Thomas's theory as presented in his book and his television face-offs with the Ramseys.

Kolar presents another possibility but I don't agree with his opinion on a lot of the things he lays at Burke's feet as stated in his book.

Linda Arndt thinks John Ramsey did it (or did at the last public report). I can see why she thinks that but based on observing Ramsey in the beginning (on television) and his statements I sit on the fence.

It has never been proved or forensically stated as fact that JonBenet was hit with an object. Also, Patsy's stated corporal cleanings could account for the genital damage done to JonBenet.

Steve Thomas's theory still seems the most plausible to me but the only things I'm certain of is that Patsy wrote the note and she and John know what happened.

The autopsy report stated "blunt force trauma" - that means she was hit with an object. All the forensic specialist agree, though they don't all agree on what it was or obviously, who did it.
The corporal cleansing has never been proven. This was stated by some of Patsy's friends, who said that Patsy told them she douched JB because of her soiling herself. This is something that may have been said to police, but we have no official evidence that it was. In court, it would probably be considered inadmissible as "hearsay".

 

[deca]

Dumb question: can the blunt force trauma be caused by JB moving and hitting a stationary object? For example: and angry person picks JB up and swings her and she hits her head on the curved edge of a counter or door jamb?

 

[DeeDee249]

Dumb question: can the blunt force trauma be caused by JB moving and hitting a stationary object? For example: and angry person picks JB up and swings her and she hits her head on the curved edge of a counter or door jamb?

Wouldn't have caused the type of fracture she had. Half her head was cracked, plus the hole in her skull is a depressed type. Being slammed into something, say a doorknob, could cause a fracture but not the one she had. And a counter would never cause this type of fracture. Neither would dropping her or a fall, even down stairs. A fall from a GREAT height can cause major damage, but bodies don't hit the ground in one static movement. There is always some bouncing around, even slightly, and a body wouldn't land in that spot as the first point of contact.
This is exactly what the coroner said it was- blunt force trauma.
Forensic experts can always tell the difference.
One thing I never see when forensic experts discuss this- the location of the depressed fracture (the place of first impact) seems to indicate someone bashing her from a place slightly to the side and behind her. Something about this makes me feel there might have been someone else in the room with JB and the person who bashed her. Something caused her to scream and the scream was said to stop abruptly, so I can imagine a sudden movement with the object at hand- IMO the flashlight- to shut her up FAST. But the apparent position of the basher makes it difficult to imagine what this person could have been doing to her from that position to cause her to scream. I feel the penetration - harsh enough to cause her to bleed- made her scream. The erosion of the hymen indicated to me that someone was in front of her or lying next to her- yet I have a hard time picturing that fracture happening while she is already lying down. Something about the timing is off here. If the bash happened while she screamed, and the perp was in front of her, there is too much of a delay grabbing the flashlight and going behind her to bash her, and why do that anyway- just bash her from the front. But that didn't happen because the fracture itself indicates otherwise.

I hate this case....

 

[UKGuy]

The injuries and circumstances of JonBenet's death are all consistent with Steve Thomas's theory as presented in his book and his television face-offs with the Ramseys.

Kolar presents another possibility but I don't agree with his opinion on a lot of the things he lays at Burke's feet as stated in his book.

Linda Arndt thinks John Ramsey did it (or did at the last public report). I can see why she thinks that but based on observing Ramsey in the beginning (on television) and his statements I sit on the fence.

It has never been proved or forensically stated as fact that JonBenet was hit with an object. Also, Patsy's stated corporal cleanings could account for the genital damage done to JonBenet.

Steve Thomas's theory still seems the most plausible to me but the only things I'm certain of is that Patsy wrote the note and she and John know what happened.

BOESP,
With ST's PDI. Its helpful to consider what evidence is yet to be revealed, and revealed it will be.

Also that ST was subject to litigation regarding the contents of his book, i.e. there was no way he was going to make direct allegations regarding sexual abuse targeting a male Ramsey, without having proof. Remember Holly Smith as head of the Boulder abuse team considered JonBenet had been sexually molested. She who reportd the fecally stained underwear. Who was later removed from the investigation, and had her biography redacted to remove any Ramsey references. Is that a clue or police politics?

Now years later we have all three Ramsey's linked to the wine-cellar artifacts, so I reckon this changes the mood music somewhat. Toss in the Ramsey Christmas Party with JonBenet being abused, and everyone agreeing to keep it quiet and deal with it privately. With a timeline running from 12/23 to 12/25 when she is killed. I reckon this is a credible scenario, particularly when some of those present at the party later said they had intended to talk to Patsy about JonBenet's behaviour, (sic) i.e. they were not denying that they were aware that JonBenet was being abused!!!

So when ST came to edit the final draft of his book I reckon he amended his intended theory and replaced it with an emphasis on his PDI, knowing full well, nobody could confirm or contradict him, since he knew there was little evidence out there.


.

 

[Rashi'sDaughter]

Wouldn't have caused the type of fracture she had. Half her head was cracked, plus the hole in her skull is a depressed type. Being slammed into something, say a doorknob, could cause a fracture but not the one she had. And a counter would never cause this type of fracture. Neither would dropping her or a fall, even down stairs. A fall from a GREAT height can cause major damage, but bodies don't hit the ground in one static movement. There is always some bouncing around, even slightly, and a body wouldn't land in that spot as the first point of contact.
This is exactly what the coroner said it was- blunt force trauma.
Forensic experts can always tell the difference.
One thing I never see when forensic experts discuss this- the location of the depressed fracture (the place of first impact) seems to indicate someone bashing her from a place slightly to the side and behind her. Something about this makes me feel there might have been someone else in the room with JB and the person who bashed her. Something caused her to scream and the scream was said to stop abruptly, so I can imagine a sudden movement with the object at hand- IMO the flashlight- to shut her up FAST. But the apparent position of the basher makes it difficult to imagine what this person could have been doing to her from that position to cause her to scream. I feel the penetration - harsh enough to cause her to bleed- made her scream. The erosion of the hymen indicated to me that someone was in front of her or lying next to her- yet I have a hard time picturing that fracture happening while she is already lying down. Something about the timing is off here. If the bash happened while she screamed, and the perp was in front of her, there is too much of a delay grabbing the flashlight and going behind her to bash her, and why do that anyway- just bash her from the front. But that didn't happen because the fracture itself indicates otherwise.

I hate this case....

I am thinking that the head bash was done with the end of the flashlight where the batteries are. If there were two boys in the WC molesting JB that night, one could have bashed her when she screamed, while the other was simultaneously raping her. A horrible thought. If this is the case, then there has to be corroborating evidence; could it be that it was never leaked?

 

[wengr]

I am thinking that the head bash was done with the end of the flashlight where the batteries are.

Exactly. Imo if one was to hit someone with the flashlight, the natural tendency would be to grab it between the thumb and index finger right where it flares out to encompass the reflector. The weight of the three D cell batteries now make it very effective baton. I am a middle aged man with a 3 cell maglight, and I really would not want to be hit in the head with it, no matter the age of the person wielding it.

 

[BOESP]

The autopsy report stated "blunt force trauma" - that means she was hit with an object. All the forensic specialist agree, though they don't all agree on what it was or obviously, who did it.
The corporal cleansing has never been proven. This was stated by some of Patsy's friends, who said that Patsy told them she douched JB because of her soiling herself. This is something that may have been said to police, but we have no official evidence that it was. In court, it would probably be considered inadmissible as "hearsay".

I agree that hitting someone's head with certain instruments or devices would be blunt force trauma but the head hitting an object and causing trauma can also be diagnosed as blunt force trauma. I've posted excerpts from medical literature several times about this so I can't just automatically conclude JonBenet was hit with an object, especially since (based on the on-line autopsy report and photos) the injury is more consistent with a low velocity/high pressure type injury.

Steve Thomas had access to the evidence so I believe he was in a good position to judge what happened just as much as Kolar was. I disagree with how Kolar viewed some of the things he believed pointed to Burke because many of those actions can be innocently explained, such as (among others) peeping at Christmas gifts.

Unfortunately, without seeing all the evidence I am not comfortable settling on any conclusion, especially if there are opposing ideas that make sense.

Thomas, Arndt, and Kolar ... all were trained and saw things first-hand although Kolar entered the picture many years later. Patsy is dead, Burke can't be prosecuted, yet there are many who think the case may still be prosecuted. That leaves two options: John Ramsey or someone unknown. Based on Thomas's "arrow of history" hitting a "deserving target," he must know something since he said this, iirc, in 2009.

 

[BOESP]

Dumb question: can the blunt force trauma be caused by JB moving and hitting a stationary object? For example: and angry person picks JB up and swings her and she hits her head on the curved edge of a counter or door jamb?

Yes, it can. It also happens quite often in automobile accidents when the head strikes something in the car.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes, it can. It also happens quite often in automobile accidents when the head strikes something in the car.

Very true for an auto accident= the speed of the car adds a tremendous amount of force to the impact. NOT so when someone is standing in a room and being slammed. Very different outcomes. Physics. Those laws aren't really that flexible.

 

[Darlene733510]

I would like to know your opinion on where JB was attacked. Do you think it started in her room, kitchen, or do you think the head bash and sexual assault were all done in the basement?
We know Patsy said she put on the long johns. Am I right on that? So what was JB wearing on top; was it the shirt she wore to the party?
Then there was the red shirt soaking in the sink by her bedroom. Red shirt bleeding red dye, or was it something else? It seems the m.o. In that house was just to take clothes off and leave them on the floor. What was on the red shirt that made PR turn into Mrs. Clean, and decided to put the shirt in the sink to soak?
There are so many items in that house that could have caused that head injury. They could be in her room, bathroom, kitchen , BR's room, or the basement. What a dilemma we have here. I still have hopes that this case will be solved, but if it is will there be punishment to fit the crime?

 

[BOESP]

Very true for an auto accident= the speed of the car adds a tremendous amount of force to the impact. NOT so when someone is standing in a room and being slammed. Very different outcomes. Physics. Those laws aren't really that flexible.

If she were hit with something that would create the bi-directional 8 1/2 inch lineal fracture the damage at the impact point would likely be a much greater "crushing" type point of entry with significantly more damage.

We'll just have to agree to disagree because low velocity/high pressure trauma does exist in the forms I've discussed here, which includes a child being manhandled and their head hitting an object. The word is "relative." It takes a relatively high amount of pressure to creature a lineal fracture like the one JonBenet suffered with a relatively low velocity force based on the relative lack of penetration by whatever supposedly hit her.

I really don't know which of us is correct in our theory but the physics argument also works for low velocity/high pressure trauma and it fits Steve Thomas's theory. He hasn't recanted his theory.

Tossing a child or pushing a child would create a variable speed (one that could be in excess of 25 mph) and when that child is stopped by an immovable object it is the same effect as vehicular trauma when the traveling body meets an immovable object. It really makes no difference what is supplying the speed, whether it be a vehicle or a human. It's the rate of speed the body travels and what object stops the speed that is important.

 

[UKGuy]

If she were hit with something that would create the bi-directional 8 1/2 inch lineal fracture the damage at the impact point would likely be a much greater "crushing" type point of entry with significantly more damage.

We'll just have to agree to disagree because low velocity/high pressure trauma does exist in the forms I've discussed here, which includes a child being manhandled and their head hitting an object. The word is "relative." It takes a relatively high amount of pressure to creature a lineal fracture like the one JonBenet suffered with a relatively low velocity force based on the relative lack of penetration by whatever supposedly hit her.

I really don't know which of us is correct in our theory but the physics argument also works for low velocity/high pressure trauma and it fits Steve Thomas's theory. He hasn't recanted his theory.

Tossing a child or pushing a child would create a variable speed (one that could be in excess of 25 mph) and when that child is stopped by an immovable object it is the same effect as vehicular trauma when the traveling body meets an immovable object. It really makes no difference what is supplying the speed, whether it be a vehicle or a human. It's the rate of speed the body travels and what object stops the speed that is important.

BOESP,
I reckon either of you could be correct. A stationary object meeting with JonBenet's head which is travelling at 25 mph, does not appear in effect much different from a stationary JonBenet meeting with an object travelling at 25 mph? The resulting downward pressure per sqare inch to her cranium would be much the same in either case.

Another scenario which would allow for the same result as above would be where JonBenet and her assailant were moving towards each other at a lower mph, but on impact, alike two cars crashing head on.

I could imagine JonBenet attempting to run past her assailant to escape only to be hit a glancing blow on the side of the head, then falling to the ground?


.

 

[M.James]

This is more what I meant by something 'saucer-shaped'. I'm not saying this is what I was thinking it was because I have no idea what she was hit with.

Although, if I found out that the Ramseys had something very similar to this in their house I could be easily convinced that it was what caused the damage, and could conjur a theory not knowing everything about the case.

Anyway, to me, this is more what makes sense with the skull damage posted on this thread.

I hope the picture shows (it's not in my previews):

Sorry, the link shows a picture, but none here.*sigh*

 

[DeeDee249]

This is more what I meant by something 'saucer-shaped'. I'm not saying this is what I was thinking it was because I have no idea what she was hit with.

Although, if I found out that the Ramseys had something very similar to this in their house I could be easily convinced that it was what caused the damage, and could conjur a theory not knowing everything about the case.

Anyway, to me, this is more what makes sense with the skull damage posted on this thread.

I hope the picture shows (it's not in my previews):

Sorry, the link shows a picture, but none here.*sigh*

We'll never know whether they had that type of shower head in JB's bathroom. The house was sold several times, including not long after JB's murder, to a group of R friends and "investors". The house was completely whitewashed (figuratively as well as literally) with all carpets being pulled up and all wallpaper being removed. Ever wall was painted white and the winecellar walled up. The house today is unrecognizable. It was completely beautifully redecorated an renovated on the inside, with the basement undergoing a remarkable transformation. It has been for sale for a very long time, and from time to time the house can be seen on real estate sites like Zillo or Trulia.

 

[DeeDee249]

I would like to know your opinion on where JB was attacked. Do you think it started in her room, kitchen, or do you think the head bash and sexual assault were all done in the basement?
We know Patsy said she put on the long johns. Am I right on that? So what was JB wearing on top; was it the shirt she wore to the party?
Then there was the red shirt soaking in the sink by her bedroom. Red shirt bleeding red dye, or was it something else? It seems the m.o. In that house was just to take clothes off and leave them on the floor. What was on the red shirt that made PR turn into Mrs. Clean, and decided to put the shirt in the sink to soak?
There are so many items in that house that could have caused that head injury. They could be in her room, bathroom, kitchen , BR's room, or the basement. What a dilemma we have here. I still have hopes that this case will be solved, but if it is will there be punishment to fit the crime?

Many people think the head bash may have happened in her room or bathroom. There is some evidence that there may have been small amounts of blood on her pillowcase. We really just don't know for sure where the assault happened. The police released the house back to the family so fast that there just wasn't time to do a more thorough investigation.
I haven't seen anything that says the red turtleneck was bleeding dye or anything else, and I have seen it stated variously that it was in the sink soaking, or lying on a counter near the sink.
We DO know without a doubt that JB did NOT wear the red shirt to the White's party. Police have photographs taken at the White's that day (which we have never seen) and she was wearing the WHITE shirt with a silver sequin star- the shirt she was found in. Her parents claim that they put the longjohns on a sleeping JB that night when they returned home, and Patsy said she just left the white shirt that she had been wearing on her.
JB's body was found wearing the white shirt she wore that day to the party and the longjohns her parents claim they put on her when they got home that night. Unfortunately there is no way to verify whether the parents really DID dress her like that for bed, or if she was dressed in something else and then RE-dressed in the white shirt and longjohns after death. There was a pink Barbie nightie with JB's own blood on it that was found on top of the white blanket that JB was wrapped in. She may have been actually wearing that. As there are no eyewitnesses other than the three suspects who were in the house at the time of her death, we have no way to know the truth.

 

[M.James]

My picture is showing. Weird, I didn't see it until I left and came back.

We'll never know whether they had that type of shower head in JB's bathroom.

It actually would be interesting to know, I suppose, although I never meant to suggest it as the weapon used. I was trying to get an image of any household item that could fit the description I was trying to describe earlier as I seem to be misunderstood a lot here. It's more for myself than anyone, as I'm not trying to change any minds, or convince anyone of anything, just mostly thinking out loud.

You and a couple others have always been great to jump in and help me out when I ask, and I really appreciate your voices.

As usual, thanks again for the information.
Sad that house couldn't be 'preserved' until the crime is solved. Even if it never is.

Appreciate your time.

 

[DeeDee249]

the[/I] weapon used. I was trying to get an image of any household item that could fit the description I was trying to describe earlier as I seem to be misunderstood a lot here. It's more for myself than anyone, as I'm not trying to change any minds, or convince anyone of anything, just mostly thinking out loud.
Appreciate your time.

Actually, if there WAS that type of shower head, it would be a very possible alternative. Late-night scrubbing because she soiled herself again, wriggling, crying JB, stressed-out Patsy with SO much to do before the early flight and the last things she wants to do is have to clean up a poopy JB before bed. One thing leads to another and she's slammed with that heavy metal shower head, maybe a bit harder than Patsy intended.

 

[Darlene733510]

Very early on in this case I mentioned the shower head. If I remember correctly
there was an unusual smell in the bathroom , and I think it was the smell that comes from hair dye. Wasn't one of the bathrooms out of order, and did Patsy dye either her hair, or lighten JB,s hair that day?
I wonder if the "keystone cops" checked the basement toilet seat for prints or DNA?
I know that so much of what we need to,help solve this case has been sealed.
Too bad someone can't use The Freedom Of Information Act.
I guess we could see from the autopsy pictures if JB's hair was darker at the roots, or as light as the rest of her hair.

 

[anne11]

On the "Perfect Town, Perfect murder" mini-series, there was a photo showing PR and JBR at the Whites party and JBR was wearing a red top, if there was insider info or if it was speculation by the shows producer I don't know.
For some reason I've always assumed the head blow too place in the basement.