Judge's Order re: OP's Mental Health Eval Thread #42

[Trooper]

bearing in mind, that the Assessors can , and have in past times, overridden a decision by the judge, but only on matters of fact.. they cant over ride her on matters of Law.. .. but you know this, because it was all outlined much earlier. and I understand you said you had done 'extensive research' into South African law recently?

 

[nastasya]

but you do know what the judges job is, in applying the Facts to the Law, and what the Assessors job is, collating the facts to present to the judge so that she can apply those facts to the Law.. .

really. what you are requiring is that the Assessors, and Masipa, in concert ,decide to reject the exact same portions of the exact same earwitnesses to fit the Accused various versions.

to wonder how a judge... any judge, will 'come out' of that is inexplicable.

Suppose the judge is even teetering on which way to go... believe OP or the 5-ear witnesses.

Then the assessors bring up some other evidence, like...

"Hmmm.... what about the blood on the duvet and carpeting where the accused dropped the jeans?"

"And yes, what about the bashed on bedroom door from the outside, after he opened the one side to go downstairs?"

"Hmmmm.... what about how he told Baba everything was fine...."

"And how he said he knew she didn't eat anything..."

"Yes, and that whole thing about him walking down the stairs carrying her body, and the garbage bags, rope, and duct tape...."

"Yes... I think the witnesses heard her screaming, and that means he knew he was shooting her, and his entire testimony was one big lie after another."

"Guilty of premeditated murder. Guilty of gun charges."
:jail:

 

[Trooper]

Suppose the judge is even teetering on which way to go... believe OP or the 5-ear witnesses.

Then the assessors bring up some other evidence, like...

"Hmmm.... what about the blood on the duvet and carpeting where the accused dropped the jeans?"

"And yes, what about the bashed on bedroom door from the outside, after he opened the one side to go downstairs?"

"Hmmmm.... what about how he told Baba everything was fine...."

"And how he said he knew she didn't eat anything..."

"Yes, and that whole thing about him walking down the stairs carrying her body, and the garbage bags, rope, and duct tape...."

"Yes... I think the witnesses heard her screaming, and that means he knew he was shooting her, and his entire testimony was one big lie after another."

"Guilty of premeditated murder. Guilty of gun charges."
:jail:

precisely.. .. judge masipa isn't in the position of 'rejecting portions of earwitnesses testimony' for any reason, whether its to fit in with some theory, or because she doesn't like the colour of their hat. The Assessors collect and collate the facts, along with Masipa. They have to task of presenting each item of evidence, whether materiel or spoken as a duty. Not one of the three can outright reject an ear witness testimony, for example, ALONE. it would require the three to be in concert. Actually, on facts ,it requires just the two Assessors..

Why anyone would be wondering how this judge would 'come out' on this, is perplexing.

 

[Budgie]

Hey Trooper,
Just popped in for a minute...happening to be passing whilst on another mission.

Love your point.
Touche

 

[Trooper]

It is easy , sometimes, to forget what those two Assessors are doing up there on the bench with Judge Masipa.. She seems all alone, very still and tiny , but in reality, she is far from alone, in all her decisions and reasonings.

The two Assessors take the place, in one sense, of what is a jury... that there are only two of them, and they are usually chosen by the judge to be the Assessors seems a bit unbalanced... but they hold and use some terrific powers that a jury has never had.

To be there, they have to be highly qualified for this specific position. All their work is peer and hyper peer reviewed, which makes for concentration. A jury has the numbers, but the Assessors have the quals.

They can , without prior permission, ask a witness to repeat or expand or answer a question they may have during testimony.. a jury cant do that.

They can over ride the judge on matters of Fact.. . they can form a quorum , submit a challenge and have that challenge upheld.. a jury cant do that.

They, along with Judge Masipa can call an adjournment .. a jury cant do that.


They can ask the attorneys,.. whether prosecutor or defence a question pertaining to the x-examination. its only happened once so far in this trial. . a jury cant do that.

they can be ill and hold up the trial until they are well enough to continue.. a jury cant do that, a jury is substituted.

They get to see and examine and hold copies for their perusal all the evidence tabled, all the statements, all the various paperwork.. a jury cant do that. .

They are present at meetings in chambers between the judge and the attorneys.. a jury cant do that.

They are accorded the same courtesies by the attorney and witnesses that the judge is , .. a jury doesn't get that.

They get the daily transcript of the trial , just as the judge does.. a jury doesn't get that.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Suppose the judge is even teetering on which way to go... believe OP or the 5-ear witnesses.

Then the assessors bring up some other evidence, like...

"Hmmm.... what about the blood on the duvet and carpeting where the accused dropped the jeans?"

"And yes, what about the bashed on bedroom door from the outside, after he opened the one side to go downstairs?"

"Hmmmm.... what about how he told Baba everything was fine...."

"And how he said he knew she didn't eat anything..."

"Yes, and that whole thing about him walking down the stairs carrying her body, and the garbage bags, rope, and duct tape...."

"Yes... I think the witnesses heard her screaming, and that means he knew he was shooting her, and his entire testimony was one big lie after another."

"Guilty of premeditated murder. Guilty of gun charges."
:jail:

Some more questions -

Why did OP say only he and Reeva were on the premises if Frank was there? It doesn't matter whether Frank says he heard/saw nothing, he is still a living, breathing human being who was at the premises at the time. So OP lied!!!

Why did OP say he couldn't dial emergency because Reeva's phone was locked? I've checked it out and afaik, you can still dial emergency. So OP lied!!

OP says Netcare told him to bring Reeva in to hospital, not to wait for them?! So in a 66 second call, OP described her injuries while in a panic state and Netcare gave him instructions? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

OP is a trained athlete who knows first aid care, OP KNOWS not to move the body, he could have brought towels and sat with Reeva till help came. This to me is a big red flag!

Of course, the other big clanger was OP telling Baba 'everything is fine' or 'I'm fine' or 'I'm okay'. Take your pick, they all spell cover up, imo.

MOO

 

[sicknote]

Some more questions -

Why did OP say only he and Reeva were on the premises if Frank was there? It doesn't matter whether Frank says he heard/saw nothing, he is still a living, breathing human being who was at the premises at the time. So OP lied!!!

It's the blatant lies that will get him a long stretch eventually. Some of the lies make no sense whatsoever.

 

[lithgow1]

Thanks for those posts Trooper - all very well reasoned and presented. You may not be a lawyer but then again some lawyers are more Lionel Hutz than Clarence Darrow.

PS As a little aside, years ago when travelling the US I went into a 'voodoo' shop in New Orleans and among all the different vials of love potions and so on was one which was labelled 'May the other lawyer be stupid'.

 

[K.T]

One thing that is deeply concerning about defense psychiatrist Dr Vorster’s testimony is she claimed Pistorius' response as authentic for anxiety issues, from his operation as a baby until the present day. Yet she had met him recently, only twice, and did not bother to read the court transcript.

Compare this to criminologist interviewed on Channel 199, Laurie Pieters, who was actually at the trial watching Pistorius testify and noted that the accused reactions were not in the end physiological – possible signs of malingering or an inauthentic response:

Criminologist Laurie Pieters: “It quite clear that he’s using emotions as a decoy: You know every time things get rough for Mr. Pistorius he cries or he vomits or he covers his head.

On the stand it was very, very interesting when things because difficult he spoke in a whining, irritated crying voice. And what I didn’t see, in the beginning it was there, but at the end what I didn’t see was the accompanying physiological reactions.

There was no nose running which you would expect when someone is crying. There were no tears and there was no excess swallowing. All the associated physiological reactions were not apparent to me.”

I’ve posted this information before but I think it’s important in terms of Pistorius' true mental and psychological state and an ability to possibly manufacture an emotional response.

 

[K.T]

Here’s a bit of history on Dr Leon Fine, Pistorius’ chosen defense forensic psychiatrist.

He’s also on the panel for Sterkfontein Hospital, (Edit: Sorry, Shrien Dewani is not there he is at Valkenberg Hospital)

In 1995, Dr Fine was the defense team’s psychiatrist for heinous murderer Moses Sithole who raped and killed 37 women. Dr. Leon Fine wrote a letter to the court about how Moses Sithole needed clinical observation as his head injuries from boxing matches may have “prevented [Sithole] from realizing the wrongness of his actions.” Sithole was sent by the court to the hospital for three thirty-day assessments (3 months!) until finally psychiatrist reports concluded no evidence of injury and that the accused had a full comprehension of right and wrong.

Micki Pistorius, Pistorius' Aunt, was the police psychologist on the Sithole case and saw the first ten dead female victims. She wrote a book about the case ‘Catch Me a Killer – Serial Murder a Profiler’s Story’.

She obviously knows Dr Leon Fine and his special interests in: “Psychosis, Depression, all Anxiety Syndromes, Personality Disorders and Interpersonal or Interfamilial Conflict Situations.”

Uncle Arnold is adamant the whole family is behind his nephew and Micki Pistorius was there every day of the bail hearing supporting the athlete.

I wonder if Micki Pistorius recommended Dr Leon Fine. Is Dr Fine going to be writing another letter about head injuries possibly diminishing Pistorius' sense of right and wrong…

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/moses_sithole/10.html

On Dec. 5, Sithole reappeared in the magistrates court. His attorney, Tony Richard, presented a letter from psychiatrist Dr. Leon Fine to the judge, proposing that Sithole be sent for clinical observation. Apparently, Sithole had suffered some head injuries during previous assaults and boxing matches, and these may have prevented him from realising the wrongfulness of his actions. It is interesting, however, that, despite not realizing that killing these women was wrong, he nevertheless went to tremendous lengths to cunningly mislead them, to lure them far away from other people, to leave almost no evidence behind, and to remove the victims belongings so as to prolong their identification. The judge ordered that Sithole be transferred to the Krugersdorp Prison, where he could be observed at nearby Sterkfontein Psychiatric Hospital.

On Jan. 5, 1996, the process repeated itself, bar the letter and bar the presence of Sithole. On Feb. 6, Sithole did attend, and a third period of 30 days was added. On March 6, the psychiatric reports were finally complete, and the court was informed that Sithole did not exhibit any evidence of injury or disorder which would preclude his comprehension of right and wrong. Hence, he was deemed fit to stand trial.

...Like [Ted] Bundy, Sithole apparently didn’t lack female company, although his relationships tended to be fleeting. Sithole told some of his rape victims that a girlfriend had wronged him. Thus we have an absent father figure, a mother who deserted him and a woman who, whether real or imagined, mistreated him in some way.

...Interestingly, both had on occasion helped others, even to the point of saving a life…Sithole helped streetchildren and even reunited some runaways with their parents.

 

[Budgie]

She's going to have to reject some portions of ear witness testimony and reconcile it with he physical evidence. I don't know how the judge will come out on this.

So you... 'don't know how the judge will come out on this'...your own words firstly.

And could you please tell us all why 'She's going to have to reject some portions of ear witness testimony and reconcile it with the physical evidence'?

Incredibly heavy statement ( some would say presumptuous) by you saying...
'She's going to have to...'

<modsnip>

IMO....You'd be great for the OP defence team.

 

[Fuskier]

Here&#8217;s a bit of history on Dr Leon Fine, Pistorius&#8217; choosen defense forensic psychiatrist.

He&#8217;s also on the panel for Sterkfontein Hospital, where Shrien Dewani is currently being &#8216;observed&#8217;.

In 1995, Dr Fine was the defense team&#8217;s psychiatrist for heinous murderer Moses Sithole who raped and killed 37 women. Dr. Leon Fine wrote a letter to the court about how Moses Sithole needed clinical observation as his head injuries from boxing matches may have &#8220;prevented [Sithole] from realizing the wrongness of his actions.&#8221; Sithole was sent by the court to the hospital for three thirty-day assessments (3 months!) until finally psychiatrist reports concluded no evidence of injury and that the accused had a full comprehension of right and wrong.

Micki Pistorius, Pistorius' Aunt, was the police psychologist on the Sithole case and saw the first ten dead female victims. She wrote a book about the case &#8216;Catch Me a Killer &#8211; Serial Murder a Profiler&#8217;s Story&#8217;.

She obviously knows Dr Leon Fine and his special interests in: &#8220;Psychosis, Depression, all Anxiety Syndromes, Personality Disorders and Interpersonal or Interfamilial Conflict Situations.&#8221;

Uncle Arnold is adamant the whole family is behind his nephew and Micki Pistorius was there every day of the bail hearing supporting the athlete.

I wonder if Micki Pistorius recommended Dr Leon Fine. Is Dr Fine going to be writing another letter about head injuries possibly diminishing Pistorius' sense of right and wrong&#8230;

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/moses_sithole/10.html

BUMP

[modsnip]

Dr. Fine : http://www.mayoclinic.co.za/doctors_fine.htm
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/artic.../#.U3whc_mSyuI
"Dr. Leon Fine, the defence&#8217;s choice of psychiatrist, has a speciality in anxiety syndromes and &#8220;extensive experience&#8221; in giving evidence in court".

Just an opinion, I'd wager a guess that OP's auntie helped source Dr Fine for the DT as his quals, position and experience 'fit the call for psych evaluation in this case' perfectly.
JMO.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

1) ANNAMARIE UP TO HER OLD TRICKS
It wouldn’t be a Pistorius trial without disturbance caused by the infamous Annamarie. The woman, who is only identified by her assumed first name, had attempted to interrupt the bail hearings in the Pistorius case last year already and went on to try the same on the first day of the actual trial, claiming she needed to speak to the judge, Dunstan Mlambo.

It is unknown what Annamarie is trying to accomplish with her repeated interruptions, but she insists that Oscar Pistorius needs to be psychologically evaluated on account of allegedly having known Oscar Pistorius’s mother.

Does anyone remember this happening? I wonder who Annamarie is and what does she know? :websleuther:

http://www.thesouthafrican.com/news/the-seven-deadly-sins-of-the-oscar-pistorius-trial-so-far.htm

 

[Interested Bystander]

Here’s a bit of history on Dr Leon Fine, Pistorius’ chosen defense forensic psychiatrist.

He’s also on the panel for Sterkfontein Hospital, where Shrien Dewani is currently being ‘observed’.

In 1995, Dr Fine was the defense team’s psychiatrist for heinous murderer Moses Sithole who raped and killed 37 women. Dr. Leon Fine wrote a letter to the court about how Moses Sithole needed clinical observation as his head injuries from boxing matches may have “prevented [Sithole] from realizing the wrongness of his actions.” Sithole was sent by the court to the hospital for three thirty-day assessments (3 months!) until finally psychiatrist reports concluded no evidence of injury and that the accused had a full comprehension of right and wrong.

Micki Pistorius, Pistorius' Aunt, was the police psychologist on the Sithole case and saw the first ten dead female victims. She wrote a book about the case ‘Catch Me a Killer – Serial Murder a Profiler’s Story’.

She obviously knows Dr Leon Fine and his special interests in: “Psychosis, Depression, all Anxiety Syndromes, Personality Disorders and Interpersonal or Interfamilial Conflict Situations.”

Uncle Arnold is adamant the whole family is behind his nephew and Micki Pistorius was there every day of the bail hearing supporting the athlete.

I wonder if Micki Pistorius recommended Dr Leon Fine. Is Dr Fine going to be writing another letter about head injuries possibly diminishing Pistorius' sense of right and wrong…

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/moses_sithole/10.html

So he is jumping off Dewani's case to cover Pistorius's. I am sure somebody, mentioning no names, will make it worth his while. The fact that OP's aunt knows this man makes his involvement wreak of suspicion.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Does anyone remember this happening? I wonder who Annamarie is and what does she know? :websleuther:

http://www.thesouthafrican.com/news/the-seven-deadly-sins-of-the-oscar-pistorius-trial-so-far.htm

Annemarie claims she is the ex wife of the surgeon who operated on OP. I haven't heard of her involvement with OP's mother as yet. She has attempted to disrupt the hearings and trial on a number of occasions.

 

[K.T]

Does anyone remember this happening? I wonder who Annamarie is and what does she know?

http://www.thesouthafrican.com/news/the-seven-deadly-sins-of-the-oscar-pistorius-trial-so-far.htm

She said her last name was uncertain as she was previously Riethmiller and also previously Versfeld &#8211; &#8220;ex-wife of Oscar&#8217;s orthopaedic surgeon, Dr Gerald Versfeld.&#8221;

'Annemarie' is the ex-wife of Dr Gerald Versfeld who operated on Pistorius and removed his legs as an 11month old.

This trial has more wackiness than a soap opera and the irony is that she interrupted the bail/court in the very beginning, to talk about her dream where Sheila Pistorius (Pistorius dead mother) demanded Pistorius be referred into psychiatric observation.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-dead-mom-asked-me-to-help-him-1.1475017#.U32vpy_d2BA


And now Pistorius IS going to hospital for observation.
And now Dr Gerald Versfeld IS said to be next on the defense witness list.

:facepalm:

 

[K.T]

So he is jumping off Dewani's case to cover Pistorius's. I am sure somebody, mentioning no names, will make it worth his while. The fact that OP's aunt knows this man makes his involvement wreak of suspicion.

Sorry! I just re-edited my post, Shrien Dewani was meant to be at Sterkfontein but now I just saw he is at Valkenberg Hospital.
http://www.news24.com/Live/SouthAfr...Shrien-Dewani-in-Valkenberg-hospital-20140521

 

[PPKik]

Annemarie claims she is the ex wife of the surgeon who operated on OP. I haven't heard of her involvement with OP's mother as yet. She has attempted to disrupt the hearings and trial on a number of occasions.

Pretoria - Oscar Pistorius&#8217;s dead biological mother came to her in a dream and asked her to help her son.

This is what a woman who claims to have known Pistorius since he was a toddler is saying.

While Pistorius&#8217;s legal team was battling it out in the magistrate&#8217;s court to obtain bail for him, the woman approached a Pretoria High Court judge and demanded that he &#8220;immediately&#8221; put a stop to the bail proceedings, until Pistorius has been referred for mental observation.

The application was brought on Thursday by a woman calling herself &#8220;Annamarie&#8221;.

She said her last name was uncertain as she was previously Riethmiller and also previously Versfeld &#8211; &#8220;ex-wife of Oscar&#8217;s orthopaedic surgeon, Dr Gerald Versfeld.&#8221;

Annamarie told Judge Joseph Raulinga that Pistorius immediately had to be referred for 60 days of observation by a panel of independent psychiatrists. This, she said, was &#8220;to determine his sanity at the time of causing the death of Reeva Steenkamp&#8221;.

<snipped>

Annamarie explained to the judge that she felt Pistorius snapped the night he shot Steenkamp as this was not the &#8220;Oscar I knew as a little boy&#8221;.

She also said that she on Monday night saw Pistorius&#8217;s biological mother, Sheila, who died years ago, in a dream. &#8220;I could feel her presence and I knew she was asking me to do something. I also saw him vividly as he was as a disabled little boy. I just knew I had to do this in memory of Sheila. Was Oscar mentally sound on the night of the shooting? This is what it is all about,&#8221; the woman said.

According to her, his disability had a big mental effect on him. She said she was no stranger to mental problems, as her former husband (Riethmiller) also suffered from a mental condition.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-dead-mom-asked-me-to-help-him-1.1475017#.U33AluhX-uY


It's not clear to me if Annamarie knew OP's mother in real life, but it seems that OP's mother came in a dream to Annamarie and made suggestions.

The court actually took her up on one of her suggestions this week for 30, but not 60 days of observation...

ETA: Has it been verified that Annamarie is actually the ex-wife of Dr. Versfeld, the surgeon, or is that her claim only?

 

[daisyannah]

Sorry if asked and answered but what exactly is the 'noise' he heard that sent him rushing to shoot at it with absolute certainty in his mind that it was an intruder - and so sure was he that he didn't bother to double check it wasn't Reeva when she didnt reply?

Or even check to see if Reeva had already been murdered in the bed and needed help? For all he knew, the 'intruders' had already been in, burgled, attacked etc and were on their escape route out?

 

[patCee]

A bit more information here re Annamarie. In the article she denies the 'dream' story. She and Dr Versfeld became good friends of OP's parents and Henke was the master of ceremonies at their wedding. She has her own views on what she sees as OP's change of character.

http://www.all4women.co.za/entertai...ims-it-is-her-duty-to-protect-oscar-pistorius