GUILTY LA - Shooting on Danziger Bridge, 2 dead, 4 hurt, New Orleans, 4 Sept 2005

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Why are we fighting over something as trivial as a misunderstanding on an internet forum when the discussion is about innocent victims who were shot and stomped to death by those who were supposed to protect them?
 
Disagreeing does not equal fighting.

It was a time of complete disaster and there was bad behavior by a lot of people.

Perhaps some do not mind being misquoted. I do.
 
Kimberlyd125 said:
Nothing in my post that you misquoted is wrong.

You have pointed out something I DIDN'T say.
Click to expand...

In my post #21 I quoted you directly and exactly. (The quotation marks were a clue.)
 
Elliemay said:
Why are we fighting over something as trivial as a misunderstanding on an internet forum when the discussion is about innocent victims who were shot and stomped to death by those who were supposed to protect them?
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I agree with Kimberly that we are not "fighting." She and I have disagreed before and will disagree again, yet the planet keeps turning. I wouldn't dare speak for her, but speaking for myself, I will say that one of the reasons I disagree vehemently with Kimberly is that I consider her to be bright and caring and decent, and therefore worth the trouble.

In this case, what I believe to be important is that the Danzinger Bridge incident did not happen in isolation, but was representative of LE behavior that was all too common after Katrina. It just so happens that proof was found at Danzinger Bridge; countless similar incidents will go unpunished and unreported. IMHO.
 
Kimberly and Nova, you're both right. The difference is a matter of perspective. By now, most people outside of the New Orleans area are aware of the levee failure which contributed to the widespread flooding. I'm not sure how many grasp the impact of the enormous and utter communication failure that followed. I left Sunday morning, so I was spared the worst of it, though my husband and I got a good taste when we returned home a week later. The web, particularly NOLA dot com, provided a wealth of real time information from residents who made their way out of the city each day to locations with internet access -- as did the Red Cross office outside Atlanta where I spent time as a client and a volunteer. But mainly, I think it was the intimate conversations with weary, disillusioned family members and friends who were present during the immediate aftermath that really drove it home.

Some of them were in areas that didn't flood, others were stranded in upstairs bedrooms or raised houses with only ankle deep water inside, and some in makeshift shelters. To a person, they recalled the pitch darkness of the nights and the dead silence broken by the sound of gunfire, an occasional outboard motor, and the noise of people and animals in distress. No one slept. Jonesing addicts in search of drugs posed a particular danger. One friend described how she and the group at her house would sit on the porch at night and drum, or play guitars, to keep each other awake because they were terrified to fall asleep. Slumber came only during the sweltering daylight hours when people took turns watching for a rescue boat/vehicle or other assistance. Many lived this way for a week or more, longer than two weeks in some cases.

Beside the darkness, the observations survivors repeated most frequently relayed the uncertainty and lack of organization. The responders were as much "in the dark" as those they were there to rescue. Chains of command crumbled. Systems failed. If you had power to operate a battery charger, your cell phone was useless because the networks were down. No one knew who was in charge of anything. Virtually everyone was at sea, including first responders. At some point, word spread that buses were taking people to the airport, but there were no designated pick up locations. A few friends told me the policeman they encountered when they ventured out to find the bus was as clueless as they were. So the trio wandered aimlessly for hours one day until they just gave up. Two days later, they caught a ride with a stranger, a volunteer with an SUV working independently to help people who were stranded.

I could go on and on, but I won't. The point I'm trying to stress is that chaos was the order of the day. Chaos and fear. Now, does that mean trigger happy thugs were shooting up the streets? Not quite, but it occurred often enough that daily reports were making their way to neighborhood internet forums. That looting and vandalism were widespread is indisputable. As residents returned, not a week went by for months that I didn't hear a new story from someone who came home only to find his house or business damaged and burglarized by thieves. I recall hearing the same story from two different individuals who said they could tell by the pile of water bottles, MRE containers and other debris that unknown visitors had spent time in their homes. They had no problem with their houses being used for shelter, but "why the hell did they have to crap on my sofa and urinate on my wool rugs" (in the second case, "defecate in my little girl's room")? And take a TV and stereo with them when they left?

The flip side is the beligerent and lawless behavior of police officers. Some of it only made the local news, and some didn't make the news at all. But it's pretty common knowledge around here that a good deal of the looting and pilfering was done by thugs in uniforms. And not all of the police bullets fired were used in the line of duty. An acquaintance of mine was shot in the arm by a police bullet while walking with his wife during the middle of the day, trying to meet up with family at a relative's house. Then there was the group of cops caught with large stashes of stolen electronics and cases of stolen beer and liquor. The stories are legion, and not all are exaggerated. Believe me, there was plenty of bad to go around.

The few residents with generators who chose to stay home boarded their houses and posted signs threatening to shoot trespassers on site. They weren't kidding, either. There's no telling how much of the shooting came from them.

Finally, some of the gunfire came from stranded victims trying to attract attention. I don't know of the particular incident Kimberly mentioned, but I wouldn't be surprised if the helicopter was shot at by a person on the ground hoping to be rescued.

So many factors came in to play in the aftermath of Katrina. Fear, chaos, physical stress, hunger, chemical withdrawal, confusion, anger, and sadness all contributed to rash behavior from otherwise rational human beings. For the cold hearted criminal, the situation provided opportunity. A very blurred line separates the two. Six years after the fact, the recollections of Katrina give rise to anxious feelings, and I have a hard time sitting in judgment of anyone who was on the ground during the aftershock.
 
Kimberlyd125 said:
...Just trying to put it in perspective. A lot of great people that were trying to help we shot at.
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Nova said:
"Just trying to put it in perspective. A lot of (LE and rescue personnel) that were trying to help were shot at."....
Click to expand...

K, I admit I changed "we" to "were" because I thought that was what you meant. I didn't want to call attention to what I thought was a mere typo by repeating it.

If you meant to say that you were personally shooting at "great people," then I apologize.

And I substituted specific nouns for "great people" in your original statement, because I believed the people to whom you referred were LE and rescue personnel. Such substitutions are common when removing a quotation from its original context might distort its meaning. Normally brackets are used instead of parentheses, but brackets are command parameters here and don't work.

If you did not mean "LE and rescue personnel", you could have just said so.
 
5 NOPD officers guilty in post-Katrina Danziger Bridge shootings, cover-up

Published: Friday, August 05, 2011, 11:44 AM Updated: Friday, August 05, 2011, 6:25 PM

A jury this morning convicted all five New Orleans police officers accused in the Danziger Bridge shootings, which took place amid the chaos after Hurricane Katrina and claimed the lives of two civilians, and a cover-up of startling scope that lasted almost five years.
9867445-large.jpg

MATTHEW HINTON / THE TIMES-PICAYUNE
Lance Madison, left, whose brother, Ronald, was shot and killed on the Danziger bridge by New Orleans Police September 5, 2005, and who was jailed for allegedly shooting at police, gets a hug from prosecutor Cindy Chung next to lead prosecutor Barbara "Bobbi" Bernstein, right, Madison thanked the jury and the federal authorities who brought the case, while noting he will never get his brother back in front of Hale Boggs Federal Court Friday, August 5, 2011 in New Orleans, La.
The verdicts were a huge victory for federal prosecutors, who won on virtually every point, save for their contention that the shootings amounted to murder. The jury rejected that notion, finding that the officers violated the victims' civil rights, but that their actions did not constitute murder.
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http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2011/08/danziger_bridge_verdict_do_not.html
 
I have been waiting for this one. Interesting distinction between these crimes and murder however.
 
Nova said:
Kimberly would never lie, but I think history now shows her to be largely misinformed.

http://mediamythalert.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/katrina-and-the-myth-of-superlative-reporting/


Was there looting after Katrina? Of course, there was some: many if not most of the survivors had no food and water. But much of the reporting we heard about violence from survivors running amok was exaggerated.

http://www.infowars.com/white-vigil...rs-without-consequences-in-katrina-aftermath/


http://www.peopleofcolororganize.co...rs-white-vigilantes-police-katrina-aftermath/


http://mediamythalert.wordpress.com/2010/08/26/give-the-press-d-minus-on-post-katrina-coverage/
Click to expand...

Just curious here but are the three links you have provided at the bottom of your post the "history" you are posting about as being the "truth" of crimes committed by white people following Katrina?? Really?
 
Perhaps I can add some clarity along with some info about what was happening in New Orleans from the experience of a first responder who actually WAS there during the storm (in the superdome as a first responder) and the aftermath (as a first responder) and was SHOT AT by thugs as he attempted to carry out his duties and protect the public and his men that he was in charge of. I can submit proof to administrators documenting credentials if needed.

What i have to say comes directly from the words of my hubby who was a firefighter in New Orleans. He had been with the NOFD for decades and was in charge of his crew of firefighters and first responders at the superdome during Katrina. He had nightmares till the day he died about what he had to go thru in Katrina and the aftermath. I know a LOT more than i will ever tell but let me at least say the following.....

He was at the superdome and he and his men were fired upon by numerous civilian snipers from different locations. Here is a man who stayed to help, who had devoted his whole life to helping others and he and his men were shot at by these lawless animals. He and his men weren't armed but the national guard people who were with him were armed and they had orders to shoot if they were fired upon and shots were exchanged. He wasn't a hunter, didnt like guns, wanted only to save lives and he was put in a situation of kill or be killed.

I dont want to say much more than that on that subject but it absolutely happened. He was extremely traumatized by his experiences of Katrina because he saw so much death and destruction and worthless people who used the storm as an excuse to go crazy and shoot at innocent people and commit horrendous crimes. Don't think all of the people who died in Katrina died from drowning or the conditions of the storm and the city.

For instance, everyone had to throw out their fridges after the storm as they were ruined and full of rotting food, they were duct taped and put on the curb for pickup to be brought to a site where they could be dismantled and properly disposed of. The workers at the site were horrified to find that there were many fridges that contained bodies of people who were murdered in the chaos of the storm. There was no way to find out where the bodies had come from or who had put them there or who they were.

New Orleans is one of the current murder capitals so imagine how much worse it was during the storm and aftermath when there was no law or not enough law to deal with the thugs who went crazy and saw Katrina as a chance to do as they please, kill whoever they wanted and to take whatever they liked. Sure, there were people who looted to survive but nobody needs a big screen TV to survive and there were many criminals and ghetto thugs who took advantage of the conditions to go on an unlimited crime spree and felt justified in doing so. They felt Katrina was God's way of letting them get back for all of the injustices they feel they suffered. Utterly disgusting!

While there were some cops who took advantage of the situation also there were many more who stayed and went beyond the call of duty. They told their families to evacuate and prayed they got out safe because they had no way of communicating once the storm him. The storm hit and they saw death and destruction everywhere and had no way to contact their families to even tell them that they had survived or to find out if their families were safe.

Anyone ever heard of Officer Paul Accardo? Probably not. You hear so much about officers who did wrong but so little about those who did right and suffered for it. Paul Accardo was an experienced officer but the aftermath, chaos and killing was too much for him and he killed himself. Learn about him. See link:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/09/05/amid_horror_2_officers_commit_suicide/

You don't hear about the firefighters and first responders who stayed behind while their families evacuated and were separated for months because the city was not safe to live in and the ff and first responders had a job of doing body recoveries for months after the storm. I know because I was there. I saw what they experienced and suffered thru. I know how hard they worked and the terrible emotional toll it took on them. But they just kept working, trying to find the missing, recovering bodies and living in a city that looked like a 3rd world country.

I have all the sympathy in the world for the firefighters, first responders and the cops who stayed and answered the call of duty. No one will ever know all of what they went thru. They haven't made a career whining about what happened to them in Katrina, unlike so many low-lives who to this day are still whining that FEMA didnt give them enough and that they are OWED something. Did you know that 5 years after Katrina FEMA was STILL paying for some people to live in hotels because those people refused to get jobs and reclaim a gainful life? Ridiculous !

Perhaps the police weren't fired upon by the civilians that they shot at on the bridge but i have no doubt in my mind that they were being shot at and had been shot at many times in the days following the storm. These officers were in a war zone.

Ok, that's my 2 cents. I don't mean to offend anyone or start a debate. I'm just stating what I know for a FACT.
 
Thank you for that perspective. And thank you to your husband for serving his community in what must have been a horrendous time.

What sets this case, I believe, a little apart is that the reports were manipulated. It simply makes me believe that these police officers knew they were not justified in their use of force.

Perhaps they expected to be fired upon and had been as you said-I have no idea what I would have done in their shoes. But the families of the victims deserve honest answers as well. No one wins here.
 
SwampMama said:
Perhaps I can add some clarity along with some info about what was happening in New Orleans from the experience of a first responder who actually WAS there during the storm (in the superdome as a first responder) and the aftermath (as a first responder) and was SHOT AT by thugs as he attempted to carry out his duties and protect the public and his men that he was in charge of. I can submit proof to administrators documenting credentials if needed.

What i have to say comes directly from the words of my hubby who was a firefighter in New Orleans. He had been with the NOFD for decades and was in charge of his crew of firefighters and first responders at the superdome during Katrina. He had nightmares till the day he died about what he had to go thru in Katrina and the aftermath. I know a LOT more than i will ever tell but let me at least say the following.....

He was at the superdome and he and his men were fired upon by numerous civilian snipers from different locations. Here is a man who stayed to help, who had devoted his whole life to helping others and he and his men were shot at by these lawless animals. He and his men weren't armed but the national guard people who were with him were armed and they had orders to shoot if they were fired upon and shots were exchanged. He wasn't a hunter, didnt like guns, wanted only to save lives and he was put in a situation of kill or be killed.

I dont want to say much more than that on that subject but it absolutely happened. He was extremely traumatized by his experiences of Katrina because he saw so much death and destruction and worthless people who used the storm as an excuse to go crazy and shoot at innocent people and commit horrendous crimes. Don't think all of the people who died in Katrina died from drowning or the conditions of the storm and the city.

For instance, everyone had to throw out their fridges after the storm as they were ruined and full of rotting food, they were duct taped and put on the curb for pickup to be brought to a site where they could be dismantled and properly disposed of. The workers at the site were horrified to find that there were many fridges that contained bodies of people who were murdered in the chaos of the storm. There was no way to find out where the bodies had come from or who had put them there or who they were.

New Orleans is one of the current murder capitals so imagine how much worse it was during the storm and aftermath when there was no law or not enough law to deal with the thugs who went crazy and saw Katrina as a chance to do as they please, kill whoever they wanted and to take whatever they liked. Sure, there were people who looted to survive but nobody needs a big screen TV to survive and there were many criminals and ghetto thugs who took advantage of the conditions to go on an unlimited crime spree and felt justified in doing so. They felt Katrina was God's way of letting them get back for all of the injustices they feel they suffered. Utterly disgusting!

While there were some cops who took advantage of the situation also there were many more who stayed and went beyond the call of duty. They told their families to evacuate and prayed they got out safe because they had no way of communicating once the storm him. The storm hit and they saw death and destruction everywhere and had no way to contact their families to even tell them that they had survived or to find out if their families were safe.

Anyone ever heard of Officer Paul Accardo? Probably not. You hear so much about officers who did wrong but so little about those who did right and suffered for it. Paul Accardo was an experienced officer but the aftermath, chaos and killing was too much for him and he killed himself. Learn about him. See link:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/09/05/amid_horror_2_officers_commit_suicide/

You don't hear about the firefighters and first responders who stayed behind while their families evacuated and were separated for months because the city was not safe to live in and the ff and first responders had a job of doing body recoveries for months after the storm. I know because I was there. I saw what they experienced and suffered thru. I know how hard they worked and the terrible emotional toll it took on them. But they just kept working, trying to find the missing, recovering bodies and living in a city that looked like a 3rd world country.

I have all the sympathy in the world for the firefighters, first responders and the cops who stayed and answered the call of duty. No one will ever know all of what they went thru. They haven't made a career whining about what happened to them in Katrina, unlike so many low-lives who to this day are still whining that FEMA didnt give them enough and that they are OWED something. Did you know that 5 years after Katrina FEMA was STILL paying for some people to live in hotels because those people refused to get jobs and reclaim a gainful life? Ridiculous !

Perhaps the police weren't fired upon by the civilians that they shot at on the bridge but i have no doubt in my mind that they were being shot at and had been shot at many times in the days following the storm. These officers were in a war zone.

Ok, that's my 2 cents. I don't mean to offend anyone or start a debate. I'm just stating what I know for a FACT.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for posting this message. It needed to be posted. People forget that police officers and fire fighters are human beings with families. Families who were left alone to fend for themselves because their police officer and/or fireman was out there to try and help people during a very traumatic time. I'm sure that these fine heroes were as traumatized as anyone they were trying to help. Yes, I think some of them reacted without really thinking but they were being fired upon and they were also wondering if their families were alive or suffering. It was truly a war zone. I watched the looters carrying the TVs and the electronics and the high priced athletic shoes and clothes...............I guess if you sauteed them or put these into a stew you might could eventually eat them???????????? Noooooooooooooooope. These were thugs hunting and harming many people and yes, there were rapes and shooting going on in the Super Dome..........it is what it is and it can't be changed no matter what some want to do about it.
 
Thanks y'all! It's been said my posts were "largely misinformed". That news reports were exaggerated or untrue.

I know they weren't.

But trying to tell people from other parts of the country about what actually happened here is hard.

Again, thanks.
 
There is a very good Frontline episode covering the aftermath of Katrina called Law and Disorder. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/law-disorder/. It talks about the police shootings after Katrina, including Danzinger Bridge, but specifically one that the police tried to coverup. But the one thing that stood out to me was that the police chief and other officials said that the reports of people shooting at rescue workers and police were not true. Even the officials that were giving interviews at the time that were saying these things were going on are now saying that they were repeating rumors that were going around at the time and now they know that it wasn't true. In fact there was only one cop shot and some people think that it could have been by somebody protecting their property thinking the cop was a looter. Another thing that stood out was that whether or not that martial law was issued or if they had authorized the police to shoot looters.
 
I had a friend who was a first responder in Katrina. She is an RN, middle aged woman. She was brutally raped for her trouble. It was done by 2 males, at the super dome. She stayed longer to help, after that, but has nightmares to this day. She really thought she would be killed. She has also told me other instances that occurred to others.

I in no way condone what these LE officers did. I am totally against any police misconduct, what so ever. I do however, feel that often our first responders are asked to take on unmanageable situations and that a lot of their rights to self protection are compromised.

This is surely a no win situation that I am sure affect NO today and will for many years to come. Thank you to those who live there or were otherwise involved for sharing your knowledge.

SwampMama, God bless you and thank you for letting us know the affects on the heros who helped others!
 
porkchop said:
There is a very good Frontline episode covering the aftermath of Katrina called Law and Disorder. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/law-disorder/. It talks about the police shootings after Katrina, including Danzinger Bridge, but specifically one that the police tried to coverup. But the one thing that stood out to me was that the police chief and other officials said that the reports of people shooting at rescue workers and police were not true. Even the officials that were giving interviews at the time that were saying these things were going on are now saying that they were repeating rumors that were going around at the time and now they know that it wasn't true. In fact there was only one cop shot and some people think that it could have been by somebody protecting their property thinking the cop was a looter. Another thing that stood out was that whether or not that martial law was issued or if they had authorized the police to shoot looters.
Click to expand...



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168112,00.html

Fights and trash fires broke out at the hot and stinking Superdome and anger and unrest mounted across New Orleans (search) as the first of nearly 25,000 refugees being sheltered at the Superdome began to arrive in Houston, Texas. Thousands of people rushed from nearby hotels and other buildings, hoping to climb onto the buses taking evacuees from the arena.

About 15,000 to 20,000 people who had taken shelter at the convention center to await buses grew increasingly hostile. Police Chief Eddie Compass said he sent in 88 officers to quell the situation at the building, but they were quickly beaten back by an angry mob.A military heliocpter tried to land at the convention center several times to drop off food and water. But the rushing crowd forced the choppers to back off. Troopers then tossed the supplies to the crowd from 10 feet off the ground and flew away.
One ambulance official overseeing the airlift rescue operations said a gunshot was fired at a military helicopter over the Superdome before daybreak."We have suspended operations until they gain control of the Superdome," said Richard Zeuschlag, head of Acadian Ambulance, which was handling the evacuation of sick and injured people from the building.
But across New Orleans, the rescuers themselves came under attack from storm victims hungry, desperate and tired of waiting.
"Hospitals are trying to evacuate," said Coast Guard Lt. Cmdr. Cheri Ben-Iesan, spokesman at the city emergency operations center. "At every one of them, there are reports that as the helicopters come in people are shooting at them. There are people just taking potshots at police and at helicopters, telling them, 'You better come get my family.'"

Nagin ordered virtually the entire police force to abandon search-and-rescue efforts and stop thieves who were becoming increasingly hostile.
Volunteers with boats hoping to help rescue those still stranded on rooftops in New Orleans were told to stand down by the Federal Emergency Management Agency after shots were fired.


Some FEMA rescue operations were suspended where gunfire has broken out, Homeland Security spokesman Russ Knocke said in Washington. "In areas where our employees have been determined to potentially be in danger, we have pulled back," he said.
Looters used garbage cans and inflatable mattresses to float away with food, clothes, TV sets — even guns. Outside one pharmacy, thieves commandeered a forklift and used it to push up the storm shutters and break through the glass. The driver of a nursing-home bus surrendered the vehicle to thugs after being threatened.


***This article gives a lot of people's account of shots fired and violence.
Surely they are not all fibbing.
 
SunnieRN said:
I had a friend who was a first responder in Katrina. She is an RN, middle aged woman. She was brutally raped for her trouble. It was done by 2 males, at the super dome. She stayed longer to help, after that, but has nightmares to this day. She really thought she would be killed. She has also told me other instances that occurred to others.

I in no way condone what these LE officers did. I am totally against any police misconduct, what so ever. I do however, feel that often our first responders are asked to take on unmanageable situations and that a lot of their rights to self protection are compromised.

This is surely a no win situation that I am sure affect NO today and will for many years to come. Thank you to those who live there or were otherwise involved for sharing your knowledge.

SwampMama, God bless you and thank you for letting us know the affects on the heros who helped others!
Click to expand...

Oh my, I am so sorry for your friend. I hope she can deal with this in some way.
Tell her there are people out there sending her good thoughts.
 
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