Lies point us to the truth #2

[Rain on my Parade]

Everything in the wine-cellar that was not there prior to the Christmas Decorations being moved upstairs is there to embellish the Kidnapping Scenario, including Burke's gifts, a bloodstained Barbie Gown found in JonBenet's bedroom might suggest something else?

UKGuy,
Curious. Why do you suppose Burke’s gifts (left in the wine cellar) point to a kidnapper? It is indeed curious, the one thing that really made BR mad @ JB is stomping on his Lego’s. Coincidence? The Barbie gown comment is right on the money!

Assuming the case is BDI and as Kolar alleges in his book that BR had Behavor Problems, were BR's issues ever resolved, do they still exist?

I would have to ask myself what has appears normal about him?

If they do what steps does BR take to alleviate them, might they pop up at some point in his adult life?

He’s had 25 years plus a few months; to alleviate them. Did they not pop up during his Dr. Phil interview?

proust20, what say you?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
Curious. Why do you suppose Burke’s gifts (left in the wine cellar) point to a kidnapper? It is indeed curious, the one thing that really made BR mad @ JB is stomping on his Lego’s. Coincidence? The Barbie gown comment is right on the money!



I would have to ask myself what has appears normal about him?



He’s had 25 years plus a few months; to alleviate them. Did they not pop up during his Dr. Phil interview?

proust20, what say you?

Rain on my Parade,

UKGuy,
Curious. Why do you suppose Burke’s gifts (left in the wine cellar) point to a kidnapper? It is indeed curious, the one thing that really made BR mad @ JB is stomping on his Lego’s. Coincidence? The Barbie gown comment is right on the money!

Forensic items added after the Christmas Decorations that were moved upstairs are there to remove any focus on wherever they had been elsewhere in the house. So BR's gifts do not point to a kidnapper in themselves, but if you check both PR and JR's staements on this topic you can show it is fabricated, i.e. a cover story for the gifts being present in the WC.

On the Lego's, no coincidence, so rather than BR whacking JonBenet over a piece of pineapple, it is more likely, if not in fact, that there was disagreement over the Christmas gifts?

I would have to ask myself what has appears normal about him?

Well, he does not look like a Mad Axeman, or Freddy Krueger.

He’s had 25 years plus a few months; to alleviate them. Did they not pop up during his Dr. Phil interview?

They sure did. Including the bits that were edited out, apparently he dropped a few stink bombs.

I reckon his issues still exist and he has the money to indulge his proclivities, once JR leaves us, it might all blow up?

His attitude towards JonBenet came over loud and clear.

Part of my BDI theory assumes he was pressuring, bullying JonBenet the night she was killed, which might just be a hangover from the Ramsey Christmas Party?

Hint: stuff may have started just prior to the Christmas Vacation period, think about those calls to Dr. Beuf.

.

 

[proust20]

Although it cannot be determined what any of the family did/didn't wear to bed, JB was found in the GAP star top which she wore to the Whites' party. Either she never removed it after coming home, or she was redressed in it as staging. Which ever it was, this link to the party was left in place. This fact implies continuity and not the sudden violence of the RN. If JB had taken the top off, why put her back in it? Did FW recall her in it from his party? Is it meant to refer to something or someone at the Whites'?

Patsy's version has her undressing a half-awake JB in the pink PJs. That's as far as she goes without mentioning the extra hair-tie. Notably Jon Benet wears her new gold cross to bed. So, Patsy's presumed intruder would have to take off the PJs and the size 6s, choose the GAP top, locate the size 12s and long johns while gathering up the Barbie nightgown for good measure! Amidst this, there is the final assault, and, oh yes, the murder with a half hour break to compose the RN.


In IDI, the intruder(s) could have been hiding and had seen JB wearing the star top while coming and going to the Whites. But why take the time to put her back in it? If it were significant to the kidnapper(s), they could have taken it with them. (Like the PJ bottoms?) JB never taking off the GAP top cleans up the elaborate sequence of events.

The Star is a curious symbol as referring to JonBenet. PR and Nedra were classic stage-moms. Their mission was for the world to recognize the special charisma of the girl. They meant for her to become the new Shirley Temple, which in a post-modern way, she sadly has. Just as an abstraction, the star forms a sort of target on her chest. It also suggests the tragedy of a fallen star. This is a sympathetic interpretation. On the other hand, it could be - just look at the great star now. - She was always flaunting herself. - JB had been conditioned that she was a celebrity. Her self image may have been that of a star, which is why she chose that particular pullover. Also, the Star could have occult meaning?

Perhaps only I find it surprising that Patsy did not have Holiday themed nightclothes and bedding for her princess.

 

[proust20]

The perplexing thing about the gifts in the WC is the torn wrappings. Patsy says she tore them. Laying this at the feet of the intruder is too much even for her. Did she intend to hand out the gifts in their damaged state? If the packages played a part in the motive, why leave them near the body? If the kids had a fight over them that led to the murder, it should make more sense to remove them from the CS. The gifts could have been unwrapped and put upstairs under the tree without a trace. That there were so few Christmas morning photos should have facilitated this possibility. Or could the gifts be like the pineapple as something which was overlooked by the stager(s); and about which Patsy had to improvise once more?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

On the Lego's, no coincidence, so rather than BR whacking JonBenet over a piece of pineapple, it is more likely, if not in fact, that there was disagreement over the Christmas gifts?

UKGuy,
Or a disagreement on both. She could have stuck her fingers in his bowl and retrieved a piece of pineapple and then stomped on his legos. Since Burke states he went back downstairs to knock out a Christmas gift; it could be he actually went back down to finish taking care of Jonbenet.

Well, he does not look like a Mad Axeman, or Freddy Krueger.

Serial killers don’t look like serial killers or else women wouldn’t willing get into the vehicles with them.

Part of my BDI theory assumes he was pressuring, bullying JonBenet the night she was killed, which might just be a hangover from the Ramsey Christmas Party?

Hint: stuff may have started just prior to the Christmas Vacation period, think about those calls to Dr. Beuf.

Yes, he could have still been peeved at Jonbenet for the occurrences at the Christmas party on the 23rd. We do not actually know what had been occurring even days previous to this. As you note the calls to Dr. Beuf. There has to be a reason why he destroyed those medical records. Perhaps his life depended on it.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Although it cannot be determined what any of the family did/didn't wear to bed, JB was found in the GAP star top which she wore to the Whites' party. Either she never removed it after coming home, or she was redressed in it as staging. Which ever it was, this link to the party was left in place. This fact implies continuity and not the sudden violence of the RN. If JB had taken the top off, why put her back in it? Did FW recall her in it from his party? Is it meant to refer to something or someone at the Whites'?

proust20,

Great point. It makes sense that she hadn’t taken off the gap top. As for Burke’s long john’s he could have taken those off and put them on her. I can’t see Patsy dressing her in those as a last parting gift. All sentimentality aside, Since the Barbie nightgown had her blood on it, it’s makes since it was deposited in the wine cellar. Now if we could only justify the reasoning for the presence of Burke’s dna found on the inside, top and bottom of said gown.

The Star is a curious symbol as referring to JonBenet. PR and Nedra were classic stage-moms. Their mission was for the world to recognize the special charisma of the girl. They meant for her to become the new Shirley Temple, which in a post-modern way, she sadly has. Just as an abstraction, the star forms a sort of target on her chest. It also suggests the tragedy of a fallen star. This is a sympathetic interpretation. On the other hand, it could be - just look at the great star now. - She was always flaunting herself. - JB had been conditioned that she was a celebrity. Her self image may have been that of a star, which is why she chose that particular pullover. Also, the Star could have occult meaning?

Is it not a coincidence that she begged to be taken to see the star on the mountain, but told no? It could have been her last dying wish?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

The perplexing thing about the gifts in the WC is the torn wrappings. Patsy says she tore them. Laying this at the feet of the intruder is too much even for her. Did she intend to hand out the gifts in their damaged state? If the packages played a part in the motive, why leave them near the body? If the kids had a fight over them that led to the murder, it should make more sense to remove them from the CS. The gifts could have been unwrapped and put upstairs under the tree without a trace. That there were so few Christmas morning photos should have facilitated this possibility. Or could the gifts be like the pineapple as something which was overlooked by the stager(s); and about which Patsy had to improvise once more?

proust20,

I completely agree with you. The presence of the legos in the wine cellar makes no sense. Since it was Burke, not Patsy that peeled back the paper; why not just open the package? Did Patsy purchase extra wrapping paper from FAO to rewrap them? But why? I wonder if any Jonbenet's dna was found on the inside of those Lego boxes? Still as you stated, it would make more sense to just put those opened boxes in Burke’s bedroom. I wonder if there was a Barbie found in the wine cellar. And what about the cotton that could have come from an American doll that Aunt Pam took out of the house?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
Or a disagreement on both. She could have stuck her fingers in his bowl and retrieved a piece of pineapple and then stomped on his legos. Since Burke states he went back downstairs to knock out a Christmas gift; it could be he actually went back down to finish taking care of Jonbenet.



Serial killers don’t look like serial killers or else women wouldn’t willing get into the vehicles with them.



Yes, he could have still been peeved at Jonbenet for the occurrences at the Christmas party on the 23rd. We do not actually know what had been occurring even days previous to this. As you note the calls to Dr. Beuf. There has to be a reason why he destroyed those medical records. Perhaps his life depended on it.

Rain on my Parade,

Or a disagreement on both. She could have stuck her fingers in his bowl and retrieved a piece of pineapple and then stomped on his legos. Since Burke states he went back downstairs to knock out a Christmas gift; it could be he actually went back down to finish taking care of Jonbenet.

Sure, but Burke did not elaborate on where the Christmas gift was located, was it the same gift his father helped him with, or was it to be found in the wine-cellar?

What are described as Burke's Birthday gifts need not be so, they might be what the kids fell out over then placed out of sight by the parents, lastly inventing a cover story for their presence in the WC, except there are different versions, one from PR, and two I think from JR, who says Patsy never knew about them, duh?

The partially opened gifts were likely opened by BR and/or JonBenet. Kolar suggests BR admits this is so?

As you note the calls to Dr. Beuf. There has to be a reason why he destroyed those medical records. Perhaps his life depended on it.

You bet, the records might demonstrate his collusion with the parents and little action taken to protect JonBenet?

Dr. Beuf has nothing to hide if everything is kosher and he wants to really assist the police?

IMO, JonBenet was redressed in the Gap Top to create the illusion of continuity with the parents version of events, e.g. put to bed asleep?

She was likely dressed in the pink pajama set she wore on Christmas Eve, the hair-ties suggest she was made ready for bed and probably climbed in, sharing with Burke, just as the night before, why not?

BR might have redressed JonBenet in the Barbie nightgown so transferring bloodstains and dna?

Also when Patsy usually helped JonBenet to bed, selecting pajamas, dressing her hair, and picking a Tape to watch, she placed JonBenet's clothes neatly on the spare bed, just as was they were found the following morning.

JonBenet and Burke just dropped their clothes anywhere when they undressed, they were so used to LHP cleaning up behind them. Consider JonBenet's pants in her bathroom and the pajama bottoms alleged to belong to Burke on her bedroom floor. Makes you wonder why her pink pajama bottoms went missing in action, not forgetting her size-6 Bloomingdale's which Patsy purchased on her New York trip?

So I'm pretty sure JonBenet made it to bed on Christmas night!

.

 

[UKGuy]

Might interest some:

Shooting Columbo The Lives and Deaths of TV's Rumpled Detective by David Koenig 2021
Available in print, ebook and audiobook.

To be found in all the usual places.

.

 

[SweaterGirl]

Could it be as simple as BR and JBR having played a bedtime game where they dressed in each other's clothes??? It would explain a lot of the clothes evidence, even the DNA. Perhaps BR was WEARING the size 6s when he walked out of the house??

In keeping with my theory that PDI, premeditated, according to a religious delusion, the Star of Bethlehem led the wise men to the baby Jesus and thus to salvation. I do not think the Gap star top is a coincidence.

I also noticed a reference to PR telling the cops to "go back to the drawing board." A funny thing to say for someone whose own drawing board (RN pad and pen) and whose own literal "drawing board/painting" supplies were heavily featured in this crime. Perhaps she was unconsciously telling the cops whom to look at.

 

[icedtea4me]

<snip>
Presumably you accept the parents must have set Burke up, i.e. leaving the penknife and his long johns at the crime-scene means the parents are dis-interested in the outcome for BR?</snip>

No, I do not think that John and Patsy intentionally set Burke up.

 

[danablue1]

No, I do not think that John and Patsy intentionally set Burke up.

I think they wanted to imply that BDI without coming right out and saying it. They didn't outsmart us they confused us especially with the crime scene that could really implicate all 3 of them. We simply don't know who did what. I personally don't think BR did it.

 

[SweaterGirl]

I do think it's possible that the adults deliberately planted suspicion of Burke into the scenario, knowing he wouldn't be accountable to the law. It is widely speculated that the Rs called lawyers before calling 911. I would imagine that the implication of Burke may well have been advised over the phone, after a verbal conversation about the true and actual events...which in turn, Burke may have overheard without the parents' knowledge, thus explaining how he seemed to know certain details of what happened.
They were also probably advised to fill up the house with as many friends as possible.
PR did try to claim that it was BR who wrote the captions in the photo album...a claim I never bought, but could be a part of trying to tie BR to the RN?
It certainly is all just another set of possibilities in a very complicated tableau of facts. And MOO.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Sure, but Burke did not elaborate on where the Christmas gift was located, was it the same gift his father helped him with, or was it to be found in the wine-cellar?

UKGuy,

As I recall, Burke stated he went back downstairs to finish knocking out his toy. JR stated he helped him in the living room. As far as the Lego’s go … one has to wonder why the big lego box is unwrapped in the photos but there are two smaller sacks sitting beneath it. It does make since that the wine cellar was merely used as a dump site. Gather all materials relevant and lock the door. If it had been only Burke then he would have had to use that chair to climb up and lock that door. Perhaps this is why is was found located in front of the train room initially.

What are described as Burke's Birthday gifts need not be so, they might be what the kids fell out over then placed out of sight by the parents, lastly inventing a cover story for their presence in the WC, except there are different versions, one from PR, and two I think from JR, who says Patsy never knew about them, duh?

The partially opened gifts were likely opened by BR and/or JonBenet. Kolar suggests BR admits this is so?

Patsy had to know about them as they came from FAO. Yes, according to Kolar, Burke was the one that opened the gifts in the wine cellar. Definite deflection here.

She was likely dressed in the pink pajama set she wore on Christmas Eve, the hair-ties suggest she was made ready for bed and probably climbed in, sharing with Burke, just as the night before, why not?

This statement about the hair ties gets me every time. There was no need to put extra hair ties in Jonbenet’s hair except to hide the head wound. Jonbenet would not have bothered with it. Patsy being in a rush to get things done once she got home … I highly doubt she would have bothered with it as well. Yet, there are those garland pieces from the staircase in her hair? From the last photo taken of Jonbenet it looks to me that her hair was pulled more straight back from the sides. Not a pony tail on top of her head and one at the nap of her neck. Hair ties rip the hair out while sleeping with them at night.

BR might have redressed JonBenet in the Barbie nightgown so transferring bloodstains and dna?

Yes, but why would Burke be redressing Jonbenet; unless he was the dresser? Patsy’s dna was located in the same places.

Also when Patsy usually helped JonBenet to bed, selecting pajamas, dressing her hair, and picking a Tape to watch, she placed JonBenet's clothes neatly on the spare bed, just as was they were found the following morning.

JonBenet and Burke just dropped their clothes anywhere when they undressed, they were so used to LHP cleaning up behind them. Consider JonBenet's pants in her bathroom and the pajama bottoms alleged to belong to Burke on her bedroom floor. Makes you wonder why her pink pajama bottoms went missing in action, not forgetting her size-6 Bloomingdale's which Patsy purchased on her New York trip?

I suppose those pants turned inside out in her bathroom were from her getting ready earlier for the White’s Christmas party.

So I'm pretty sure JonBenet made it to bed on Christmas night!

I would bet she originally dressed in her night cloths herself.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

As I recall, Burke stated he went back downstairs to finish knocking out his toy. JR stated he helped him in the living room. As far as the Lego’s go … one has to wonder why the big lego box is unwrapped in the photos but there are two smaller sacks sitting beneath it. It does make since that the wine cellar was merely used as a dump site. Gather all materials relevant and lock the door. If it had been only Burke then he would have had to use that chair to climb up and lock that door. Perhaps this is why is was found located in front of the train room initially.



Patsy had to know about them as they came from FAO. Yes, according to Kolar, Burke was the one that opened the gifts in the wine cellar. Definite deflection here.



This statement about the hair ties gets me every time. There was no need to put extra hair ties in Jonbenet’s hair except to hide the head wound. Jonbenet would not have bothered with it. Patsy being in a rush to get things done once she got home … I highly doubt she would have bothered with it as well. Yet, there are those garland pieces from the staircase in her hair? From the last photo taken of Jonbenet it looks to me that her hair was pulled more straight back from the sides. Not a pony tail on top of her head and one at the nap of her neck. Hair ties rip the hair out while sleeping with them at night.



Yes, but why would Burke be redressing Jonbenet; unless he was the dresser? Patsy’s dna was located in the same places.



I suppose those pants turned inside out in her bathroom were from her getting ready earlier for the White’s Christmas party.



I would bet she originally dressed in her night cloths herself.

Rain on my Parade,

As I recall, Burke stated he went back downstairs to finish knocking out his toy. JR stated he helped him in the living room. As far as the Lego’s go … one has to wonder why the big lego box is unwrapped in the photos but there are two smaller sacks sitting beneath it. It does make since that the wine cellar was merely used as a dump site. Gather all materials relevant and lock the door. If it had been only Burke then he would have had to use that chair to climb up and lock that door. Perhaps this is why is was found located in front of the train room initially.

Sure he says downstairs, but he does not identify the toy or it's location?

This suggests to me that there is evidence, possibly BR's penknife, or unpublished lab results that link BR with something in the WC?

You already have JR saying he used the flashlight to put BR to bed and in the same interview BR admits going back downstairs.

So any forensic evidence BPD have can now be explained away by JR and BR's claims?

The big Lego box might have been a Christmas gift that was latterly moved downstairs and claimed to be a Birthday gift for BR?

It's an open question whether BR staged aspects of the wine-cellar, could he have moved JonBenet downstairs or did it all kick off in the basement?

I go for BR initially staging upstairs and the parents relocating the staging to the wine-cellar?

This statement about the hair ties gets me every time. There was no need to put extra hair ties in Jonbenet’s hair except to hide the head wound.

Yet there was no visible head wound, the coroner only observed a skull fracture when he incised her scalp, pulled it up, and found a cranial fracture.

Yes, but why would Burke be redressing Jonbenet

Because JonBenet's pajama bottoms and size-6 Bloomingdale's are possibly bloodstained, fecally soiled, or have semen deposits?

With her pink pajama top being left on her bed, I'm assuming this is where she was initially redressed.

There is no need to remove the pink pajama bottoms if she never wore them on Christmas night.

Minimally the pink pajama bottoms and/or her size-6 underwear contain bloodstains from an internal injury, suggesting again it all kicked off in her bedroom?

I suppose those pants turned inside out in her bathroom were from her getting ready earlier for the White’s Christmas party.

Yes, most folks think this, Patsy invokes ramnesia on what JonBenet dressed in on Christmas night.

I would bet she originally dressed in her night cloths herself.

Maybe not, Patsy might have slowly undressed her, dressing her hair, talking over what to wear the following morning, etc.

JonBenet's clothes are neatly laid out on the guest bed, this is something Patsy would do, the kids could not care less where their clothes were left.


.

 

[UKGuy]

No, I do not think that John and Patsy intentionally set Burke up.

icedtea4me,
OK, do you think they unintentionally set Burke up?

Do you agree Burke colluded with his parents to fake a postmortem crime-scene, e.g. still being asleep until the BPD officer shone a light in his face?

Bear in mind the parents both revised their initial version of events, from Burke not being present when Patsy dialled 911, to be being present, as it is alleged Burke's voice was audible on the 911 tape.

Also what did Burke tell the GJ that allowed them to level True Bills at both parents stating child neglect and assisting an offender?

The bottom line being if the case is not BDI then Burke knows who killed JonBenet, as with all his inside information he can work it out.

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Yet there was no visible head wound, the coroner only observed a skull fracture when he incised her scalp, pulled it up, and found a cranial fracture.

UKGuy,

No there was no visible injury that we know of on Jonbenet’s scalp. But we must remember that BR stated a few weeks later that someone took out a knife and then hit her on the head. Maybe he had to explain why she was comatose.

Because JonBenet's pajama bottoms and size-6 Bloomingdale's are possibly bloodstained, fecally soiled, or have semen deposits?

With her pink pajama top being left on her bed, I'm assuming this is where she was initially redressed.

There is no need to remove the pink pajama bottoms if she never wore them on Christmas night.

Minimally the pink pajama bottoms and/or her size-6 underwear contain bloodstains from an internal injury, suggesting again it all kicked off in her bedroom?

I can buy all of this. But I wonder if the Barbie nightgown was overlooked when disposing those items or maybe not enough room in the American doll?

Maybe not, Patsy might have slowly undressed her, dressing her hair, talking over what to wear the following morning, etc.

I have given the red sweater found on the bathroom counter some more thought. Jonbenet was suppose to wear that to the White’s party that evening. Jonbenet had other ideas. IMOO, I do not see Patsy taking the time to redo Jonbenet’s hair that night. Patsy wasn’t known for being neat herself. She says she laid her own party cloths draped over the bathtub after the party. Maybe she did, maybe she never changed out of them.

JonBenet's clothes are neatly laid out on the guest bed, this is something Patsy would do, the kids could not care less where their clothes were left.

Or, as you suggest perhaps Patsy laid the jacket on the bed. Yet I wonder if this wasn’t put there in the aftermath? Why were Burke’s soiled pajamas left on her floor if there wasn’t something going on in there?

 

[Always Stay Hopeful]

The perplexing thing about the gifts in the WC is the torn wrappings. Patsy says she tore them. Laying this at the feet of the intruder is too much even for her. Did she intend to hand out the gifts in their damaged state? If the packages played a part in the motive, why leave them near the body? If the kids had a fight over them that led to the murder, it should make more sense to remove them from the CS. The gifts could have been unwrapped and put upstairs under the tree without a trace. That there were so few Christmas morning photos should have facilitated this possibility. Or could the gifts be like the pineapple as something which was overlooked by the stager(s); and about which Patsy had to improvise once more?

I felt like the gifts were another overlooked detail that Patsy had to improvise on. She may not have even known that they were partially opened until she was asked about them. I don't believe Patsy was the one who opened them. If B did so innocently, why would she take responsibility for that? Peeking into their presents is something kids commonly do. Why does she not want to associate B with the partially opened presents? Did it have something to do with what happened? Did he go back downstairs after his parents were in bed, to go take a peek? This is something that makes me wonder if BDI.

 

[InstantProof]

Is it possible Burke is peaking at his gifts and the larger size girls underwear is wrapped and mixed in?

 

[danablue1]

Yes what a great observation! Maybe that's another reason why PR said she unwrapped them so BR couldn't be tied to that one either