Lies point us to the truth #2

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Man. Even in death, Smit works harder than the BPD.



Smit prayed with a lot of people over his career, colleagues, witnesses and suspects alike. Apparently he got close to suspects to evaluate them and making them drop their guard. I personally think it's a better tactic than the Reid technique.



Are you suggesting Smit was paid by the Ramseys to lie?



And I'm going to stop right there. What Dr Phil says is of no interest to me whatsoever. I have no trust that the man cares one whit about being accurate or truthful, and that lack of trust is very empirical.

My interest is in what John or Burke says. And I have never seen John say he used a flashlight to put Burke to bed. Not saying he hasn't, just that I've looked through a ton of interviews and articles and haven't seen it. There is a problem with myths going around this case, and it's making it very difficult to correctly evaluate what actually happened. So I like to see the words coming from the people themselves, be they suspects, witnesses or experts.
Irrelevant if she was wearing them the whole previous evening.



If that's what they did. There has never been a report on this, as far as I know, just impressions by police that looked at it. I could be wrong, of course.



"Patsy's fibers" is a misnomber - they're fibers of the same kind of material as her jacket - but another question is why only the red fibers from the checkered red-and-black coat ended up on the scene.



What business meeting? As far as I can tell, this was just another myth. Schiller writes that John told an officer he was flying to Atlanta and he had something important to attend to. That's not a "business meeting", and I can think of some major matters to deal with when you've lost your child.



It looked similar to the one they had. I don't see the big deal with the maid or others getting them confused.



A knife wasn't used. Neither was a hammer. Burke knew JonBenet had been killed. I think it's futile to read more into it, but then, I've always found the "Burke did it" to be the weakest of the Ramsey-related theories by far.



According to Steve Thomas, who we know misrepresented other parts of the Bernhard interview.



Burke (from Dr Phil interview):



John:



So they're obviously describing the same event. The parents have taken JonBenet upstairs and put her to bed, then John goes down to find Burke who is obsessing over his toy.



I think the idea that Hunter was corrupted by money is absolutely ridiculous.

In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: The police, who investigate crime, and the district attorneys, who prosecute the offenders. (dun dun) And in this case, the two were not working well together. Having read Schiller's book which meticulously gives both sides the chance to speak, I'll say neither side acquitted themselves well, but the majority of my sympathies are with Hunter and his office. They were begging and pleading with the BPD to investigate the case properly, look at every angle and lead because they knew the defense would eviscerate the investigation on trial, and for good reason. But the BPD were just, nah, we know who did it already, and don't tell us how to do our job. Honestly, most blame should go to Eller, who refused to accept help from the outside, notfrom FBI, nor the Denver PD and the Boulder Sheriff's Department. Even with the mess the first responders made, this case could well have been solved within the first months had Eller not been so stubborn. And the funny thing is, the only person I could find who actually seems to have been cowed by the Ramseys' money and status was Eller! He was the one who ordered the police to back off them before he turned on a dime and became their biggest enemy.

I think the most depressing read was from Steve Thomas, when he complains at length about the situation with professor Foster. The good professor had been hired to analyze the ransom note, and so he did, and came to the conclusion that Patsy was absolutely the writer. Thomas saw this as a smoking gun and wanted to put it before the grand jury - the problem was that a year prior, professor Foster had written to Patsy, telling her he was certain she hadn't written the note. He also knew who had - John Andrew Ramsey, provably nowhere close to Boulder that night, who was also posting online under a pseudonym (which turned out to be a middle-aged North Carolina housewife). Now the DAO controls who goes before the grand jury, but at a trial they knew the defense would tear the professor apart - and with good reason, since he obviously wasn't anywhere as adept as he claimed to be. Yet Thomas throws what I can only be described as a tantrum when the DAO won't put Foster before the grand jury.

Hunter may have thought the Ramseys did it, but he was handed an unwinnable hand by the BPD, and did the only reasonable thing he could do - considering both the resources that would be wasted and the justice that would be denied - and folded.
It's puzzling to me that you wouldn't consider BDI, at all. With ALL of the antics involved - staged area, the NOTE, the other dozen oddities - the BEST explanation would be parents out of their minds at the death of one child, covering for another. Nothing else really comes close to making sense.

And with the debacle of the BPD, how could one trust any of the DNA to be what they say it is? JBR was in bed with LE. Insanity.
 
It's puzzling to me that you wouldn't consider BDI, at all. With ALL of the antics involved - staged area, the NOTE, the other dozen oddities - the BEST explanation would be parents out of their minds at the death of one child, covering for another. Nothing else really comes close to making sense.

And with the debacle of the BPD, how could one trust any of the DNA to be what they say it is? JBR was in bed with LE. Insanity.

Happy to consider most things, but they have to make sense. Of all the scenarios that involve the Ramseys, Burke hurting JonBenet and the parents finishing her off to cover for him, makes the least sense to me. One child hit another on the head, so let's garrote and sexually assault our still living child!

I see little evidence of staging and the note honestly points to an intruder. The oddities I am most interested in are:

* Foreign DNA in a blood spot in JonBenet's panties, enough for a CODIS entry (UM1).
* Touch DNA consistent with the above found on the waistband of her longjohns.
* Tape and cord unsourced to the house.
* Unsourced rope found in the room next to JonBenet's, with a view of the garage.
* Baseball bat found outside the butler's door, on the northern edge of the house where the children didn't go.
* Marks consistent with a stun gun (unsourced), including one prong over tape.
* Fibers and hair on JonBenet, unsourced (including beaver fur and brown cotton fibers).
* Two sightings of unknown young man around the Ramsey house that night.
* Rambling ransom note, consistent with other cases involving young men.

Unless one of the BPD dipped their hands into JonBenet's panties before handing her over to the coroner, I don't see how their incompetence could create a DNA profile in the blood as well as on the waistband. They tested areas of the panties around the blood spots and found no trace of UM1. He was only in the blood and on the waistband, as what he he did was pull down her underwear and assault her.
 
Thank you.

Was the bat tested for fingerprints or DNA? (I don't care that is was found on the other side of the house.) Were the metal shavings under her nails analyzed to determine from whence they came? A bat seems like a plausible object to create a mostly straight 8 inch fracture on a skull.

Was a DNA sample ever obtained from Don Paugh?
 
Happy to consider most things, but they have to make sense. Of all the scenarios that involve the Ramseys, Burke hurting JonBenet and the parents finishing her off to cover for him, makes the least sense to me. One child hit another on the head, so let's garrote and sexually assault our still living child!

I see little evidence of staging and the note honestly points to an intruder. The oddities I am most interested in are:

* Foreign DNA in a blood spot in JonBenet's panties, enough for a CODIS entry (UM1).
* Touch DNA consistent with the above found on the waistband of her longjohns.
* Tape and cord unsourced to the house.
* Unsourced rope found in the room next to JonBenet's, with a view of the garage.
* Baseball bat found outside the butler's door, on the northern edge of the house where the children didn't go.
* Marks consistent with a stun gun (unsourced), including one prong over tape.
* Fibers and hair on JonBenet, unsourced (including beaver fur and brown cotton fibers).
* Two sightings of unknown young man around the Ramsey house that night.
* Rambling ransom note, consistent with other cases involving young men.

Unless one of the BPD dipped their hands into JonBenet's panties before handing her over to the coroner, I don't see how their incompetence could create a DNA profile in the blood as well as on the waistband. They tested areas of the panties around the blood spots and found no trace of UM1. He was only in the blood and on the waistband, as what he he did was pull down her underwear and assault her.
I don't think the parents finishing her off for him happened at all.

More plausible: Evidence shows she had been previously abused. He could have lured her down, shared the pineapple, coaxed her into the basement, abused her. If she cried out or threatened to tell, he would have been scared and angered and possibly hit her with a bat on head, and then created the garrote to stop the crying or whimpers.

Parents could have heard the commotion and came down. Freaked out & the staging ensued.

Oddities:
For sake of time only listing 5 - you've heard the dozen others!
1. Brand new Size 12 underwear identical to her size 6's. No package found, the other 5 pair not found. No ripped open gift found containing the other 5 pairs.
2. JBR misses seeing her body at 6:15 a.m. Police miss it during their search. FW doesn't see it. But, oddly JBR finds it at 1 p.m. in the dark behind the half wall, but states he saw it when he opened the door.
3. The Ransome Note. Period.
4. The entire fact that the crime scene wasn't protected. Everything touched. Items moved. The keystone cops capers!
5. JBR's unaccounted for whereabouts in leaving the house during or after the search on the day she is found, reportedly even going to the airport.

Too many oddities!!
 
This case and its evidence is an Agatha Christie style Too Many Cooks scenario where nothing is solvable because who can say who did what.
 
I don't think the parents finishing her off for him happened at all.

More plausible: Evidence shows she had been previously abused. He could have lured her down, shared the pineapple, coaxed her into the basement, abused her. If she cried out or threatened to tell, he would have been scared and angered and possibly hit her with a bat on head, and then created the garrote to stop the crying or whimpers.

Parents could have heard the commotion and came down. Freaked out & the staging ensued.

Oddities:
For sake of time only listing 5 - you've heard the dozen others!
1. Brand new Size 12 underwear identical to her size 6's. No package found, the other 5 pair not found. No ripped open gift found containing the other 5 pairs.

They were found, they had been packed up and moved to Atlanta with their other things, post-murder. When did the police look for them?

2. JBR misses seeing her body at 6:15 a.m. Police miss it during their search. FW doesn't see it. But, oddly JBR finds it at 1 p.m. in the dark behind the half wall, but states he saw it when he opened the door.

John can't control officer French's decision whether to open the wine cellar. The light came from behind, meaning the white blanket's visibility would depend on whether the person opening the door blocked the light or not. As with most things, it's not a binary question.

3. The Ransome Note. Period.

Agreed. It definitely points to an intruder in my opinion.

4. The entire fact that the crime scene wasn't protected. Everything touched. Items moved. The keystone cops capers!

I certainly agree. I have some amount of sympathy for many of them - Linda Arndt should have gotten reinforcements when she asked for it, and not be ignored. Also, French screwed up, but it was such a fluke that the one room in the basement he decided not to look into was where JonBenet was.

5. JBR's unaccounted for whereabouts in leaving the house during or after the search on the day she is found, reportedly even going to the airport.

When was this supposed to be? I know the Linda Arndt report where she claims he left the house to get the mail somewhere between 10:40 and 12:00, but the Ramseys got their mail through a slot in the door. As far as I know there is no evidence he left the house at all.
 
Man. Even in death, Smit works harder than the BPD.



Smit prayed with a lot of people over his career, colleagues, witnesses and suspects alike. Apparently he got close to suspects to evaluate them and making them drop their guard. I personally think it's a better tactic than the Reid technique.



Are you suggesting Smit was paid by the Ramseys to lie?



And I'm going to stop right there. What Dr Phil says is of no interest to me whatsoever. I have no trust that the man cares one whit about being accurate or truthful, and that lack of trust is very empirical.

My interest is in what John or Burke says. And I have never seen John say he used a flashlight to put Burke to bed. Not saying he hasn't, just that I've looked through a ton of interviews and articles and haven't seen it. There is a problem with myths going around this case, and it's making it very difficult to correctly evaluate what actually happened. So I like to see the words coming from the people themselves, be they suspects, witnesses or experts.

FergusMcDuck,
Are you suggesting Smit was paid by the Ramseys to lie?
Well we know the Stine's ended up being employed by the Ramsey's, why not Smit, a retired Detective's pension is not that generous. Smit could quite easily have been contracted to the Ramsey's via an "at arms length" security company.

And I'm going to stop right there. What DR PHIL SAYS IS OF NO INTEREST TO ME WHATSOEVER. I have no trust that the man cares one whit about being accurate or truthful, and that lack of trust is very empirical.
BBM: A disregard for empirical evidence, e.g. Dr Phil's take on what JR said, simply displays not only your Motivated Reasoning, but a lack of rigor and an inconsistent approach to the JonBenet case.

My interest is in what John or Burke says. And I have never seen John say he used a flashlight to put Burke to bed. NOT SAYING HE HASN'T, just that I've looked through a ton of interviews and articles and haven't seen it. There is a problem with myths going around this case, and it's making it very difficult to correctly evaluate what actually happened. So I like to see the words coming from the people themselves, be they suspects, witnesses or experts.
As expected your Motivated Reasoning leads you to discover "Myths", convenient, huh.

JR and BR do not appear on Mainstream Media to give verbatim accounts regarding the night JonBenet was murdered. BPD undertook this a long time ago.

Dr Phil is dropping the "Flashlight" into his narrative because JR has requested it.

JR is patently furnishing BR with an alibi of sorts, as the flashlight arrives upstairs, then reappears downstairs, apparently wiped clean of prints.

Why would Dr. Phil select the "flashight" to attribute behavour to JR?

Here is the relevant part of Dr Phils transcript
Dr Phil Interview with Burke Ramsey, episode 2, excerpt
DR PHIL: I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed, and then you snuck downstairs to play?

BURKE: Yeah, I had some toy that I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kinda in bed, and wanting to get this thing out.

DR PHIL: Did you use the flashlight, so you wouldn't be seen?

BURKE: I don't remember. I just remember being downstairs, I remember this toy.
Note: Burke does not deny that his father used the flashlight to put him to bed, OK.

Note: Burke also does not deny using the flashlight.

He answers a DIFFERENT question, citing AMNESIA, refers to a TOY.

Leaving the flashlight in the dark.

BR was asked twice about the flashlight and twice he avoided explicitly answering.

.
 
FergusMcDuck,

Well we know the Stine's ended up being employed by the Ramsey's, why not Smit, a retired Detective's pension is not that generous. Smit could quite easily have been contracted to the Ramsey's via an "at arms length" security company.


BBM: A disregard for empirical evidence, e.g. Dr Phil's take on what JR said, simply displays not only your Motivated Reasoning, but a lack of rigor and an inconsistent approach to the JonBenet case.


As expected your Motivated Reasoning leads you to discover "Myths", convenient, huh.

JR and BR do not appear on Mainstream Media to give verbatim accounts regarding the night JonBenet was murdered. BPD undertook this a long time ago.

Dr Phil is dropping the "Flashlight" into his narrative because JR has requested it.

JR is patently furnishing BR with an alibi of sorts, as the flashlight arrives upstairs, then reappears downstairs, apparently wiped clean of prints.

Why would Dr. Phil select the "flashight" to attribute behavour to JR?

Here is the relevant part of Dr Phils transcript


Note: Burke does not deny that his father used the flashlight to put him to bed, OK.

Note: Burke also does not deny using the flashlight.

He answers a DIFFERENT question, citing AMNESIA, refers to a TOY.

Leaving the flashlight in the dark.

BR was asked twice about the flashlight and twice he avoided explicitly answering.

.
The mention of it is a total PLANT. SMDH.
 
Exactly Proust, 3 violent crimes and the ramseys claimed to of slept through it all while Burke stated he could hear the fridge door down the kitchen whenever someone opened it from his bedroom on the second floor. The parents claimed Jonbenet was zonked out when they got home and put her straight to bed. John in his interview even claimed to struggle getting her out of the car and carrying her asleep upstairs to her bed. Yet Burke states on Dr Phil he saw jonbenet walk in and walk upstairs.
JBR struggled to get a barely 40 pound 6 year old out of the car? Seriously? More overreach with his descriptions, etc. *sigh*
 
FergusMcDuck,

Well we know the Stine's ended up being employed by the Ramsey's, why not Smit, a retired Detective's pension is not that generous. Smit could quite easily have been contracted to the Ramsey's via an "at arms length" security company.

Just to confirm, your contention is that Lou Smit lied for money?

BBM: A disregard for empirical evidence, e.g. Dr Phil's take on what JR said, simply displays not only your Motivated Reasoning, but a lack of rigor and an inconsistent approach to the JonBenet case.

Why should anyone care what Dr Phil said? He wasn't there, and he's a blowhard with little regard for getting things right. If anything I'm consistent on this - I don't take the words of the likes of the National Enquirer or Dr Phil seriously when I look into cases.

As expected your Motivated Reasoning leads you to discover "Myths", convenient, huh.

My motivated reasoning means getting the information directly from people and not filtered through dishonest tabloids and TV blowhards, and I am quite happy about that.

JR and BR do not appear on Mainstream Media to give verbatim accounts regarding the night JonBenet was murdered. BPD undertook this a long time ago.

Yes, and they do not mention John using a flashlight to put Burke to bed. I don't know where Dr Phil got that from, except perhaps his prodigious posterior. Wouldn't be the first time.

Dr Phil is dropping the "Flashlight" into his narrative because JR has requested it.

JR is patently furnishing BR with an alibi of sorts, as the flashlight arrives upstairs, then reappears downstairs, apparently wiped clean of prints.

And this is why I don't believe it. How would this possibly provide Burke with an alibi? How would this possibly change anything? It's like the NE "Burke was awake" story all over again - seizing a perceived inconsistency and crafting a narrative of deception without ensuring that it actually makes sense.

Why would Dr. Phil select the "flashight" to attribute behavour to JR?

Because the flashlight had been pushed back into the forefront with the (not very persuasive) theories of Kolar et al?

Here is the relevant part of Dr Phils transcript


Note: Burke does not deny that his father used the flashlight to put him to bed, OK.

Note: Burke also does not deny using the flashlight.

Burke says what he remembers doing that night, which is consistent with what John has said in every interview since 1997:

Uh, I carried her inside and took her upstairs and put her in bed, put her on her bed. Uh Patsy came up behind me, and then I went down to get Burke ready for bed, he was down in the living room, working on a toy he got putting it together, and tried to get him to go to bed because we had to get up early the next morning, but he wanted to get this toy put together, so I worked with him on that for 10 15 minutes probably; and then I took him up to bed and got his pajamas on, probably brushed his teeth, and then I went up stairs from there and got ready for bed.

1998:

JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I started to get Burke into bed; get him ready. And he was sitting in the living room working on a toy, an assembly little toy he got for Christmas. And I could see that I was going to get him to go easy. So I sat down and helped him put it together to try to expedite the process. So we did that together and it took us ten or twenty minutes, I guess. And then he went up to bed. And then we went up to bed. And I think we used the front stairs (INAUDIBLE).

LOU SMIT: And what time was it that you got (INAUDIBLE)?

JOHN RAMSEY: It was probably nineish, 9:15 maybe. (INAUDIBLE).

LOU SMIT: So you looked for Burke?

JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Then I got Burke on his way to bed. I guess I must have gotten him for bed, but I don't remember now for sure. But he got in bed, and by the time I got to bed I think Patsy had already been.

LOU SMIT: You just go right directly from Burke and came upstairs? Is that what your saying?

JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I believe so.

LOU SMIT: And what is your routine then?

JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I just got ready for bed: brushed my teeth probably. I did take a Melatonin that night.

Burke on Dr Phil:

Burke: Yeah, I had some toy that I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kinda in bed and wanting to get this thing out.

Dr. Phil:
Did you use the flashlight so you wouldn't be seen?

Burke: I don't remember. I just remember being downstairs, I remember this toy.

He answers a DIFFERENT question, citing AMNESIA, refers to a TOY.

Leaving the flashlight in the dark.

BR was asked twice about the flashlight and twice he avoided explicitly answering.

Because he doesn't remember a flashlight. You know, in so many places this case is discussed I keep seeing these mocking references to the Ramseys not remembering something - amnesia, ramnesia, etc - because heaven forfend someone doesn't perfectly recall every detail of every second of the most traumatic days of their lives. But the idea that this is consistent with the Ramseys also creating a false narrative makes no sense to me. If the idea here is that (somehow) John using a flashlight to put Burke to bed is meant to create an "alibi" for him, why doesn't Burke just say "yes, I remember dad having the flashlight and leading the way"? It's not like anyone can contradict them.

But instead he says he doesn't remember, because he was a nine year old kid, it was Christmas night and the following day his world would shatter forever.
 
Just to confirm, your contention is that Lou Smit lied for money?



Why should anyone care what Dr Phil said? He wasn't there, and he's a blowhard with little regard for getting things right. If anything I'm consistent on this - I don't take the words of the likes of the National Enquirer or Dr Phil seriously when I look into cases.



My motivated reasoning means getting the information directly from people and not filtered through dishonest tabloids and TV blowhards, and I am quite happy about that.



Yes, and they do not mention John using a flashlight to put Burke to bed. I don't know where Dr Phil got that from, except perhaps his prodigious posterior. Wouldn't be the first time.



And this is why I don't believe it. How would this possibly provide Burke with an alibi? How would this possibly change anything? It's like the NE "Burke was awake" story all over again - seizing a perceived inconsistency and crafting a narrative of deception without ensuring that it actually makes sense.



Because the flashlight had been pushed back into the forefront with the (not very persuasive) theories of Kolar et al?



Burke says what he remembers doing that night, which is consistent with what John has said in every interview since 1997:



1998:



Burke on Dr Phil:





Because he doesn't remember a flashlight. You know, in so many places this case is discussed I keep seeing these mocking references to the Ramseys not remembering something - amnesia, ramnesia, etc - because heaven forfend someone doesn't perfectly recall every detail of every second of the most traumatic days of their lives. But the idea that this is consistent with the Ramseys also creating a false narrative makes no sense to me. If the idea here is that (somehow) John using a flashlight to put Burke to bed is meant to create an "alibi" for him, why doesn't Burke just say "yes, I remember dad having the flashlight and leading the way"? It's not like anyone can contradict them.

But instead he says he doesn't remember, because he was a nine year old kid, it was Christmas night and the following day his world would shatter forever.
It's significant in that it's an attempt to give reason why the mag lite is out. "Oh, B didn't use THAT to hit JB over the head - because I had it out to take him to bed." I call BS.
 
Just to confirm, your contention is that Lou Smit lied for money?



Why should anyone care what Dr Phil said? He wasn't there, and he's a blowhard with little regard for getting things right. If anything I'm consistent on this - I don't take the words of the likes of the National Enquirer or Dr Phil seriously when I look into cases.



My motivated reasoning means getting the information directly from people and not filtered through dishonest tabloids and TV blowhards, and I am quite happy about that.



Yes, and they do not mention John using a flashlight to put Burke to bed. I don't know where Dr Phil got that from, except perhaps his prodigious posterior. Wouldn't be the first time.



And this is why I don't believe it. How would this possibly provide Burke with an alibi? How would this possibly change anything? It's like the NE "Burke was awake" story all over again - seizing a perceived inconsistency and crafting a narrative of deception without ensuring that it actually makes sense.



Because the flashlight had been pushed back into the forefront with the (not very persuasive) theories of Kolar et al?



Burke says what he remembers doing that night, which is consistent with what John has said in every interview since 1997:



1998:



Burke on Dr Phil:





Because he doesn't remember a flashlight. You know, in so many places this case is discussed I keep seeing these mocking references to the Ramseys not remembering something - amnesia, ramnesia, etc - because heaven forfend someone doesn't perfectly recall every detail of every second of the most traumatic days of their lives. But the idea that this is consistent with the Ramseys also creating a false narrative makes no sense to me. If the idea here is that (somehow) John using a flashlight to put Burke to bed is meant to create an "alibi" for him, why doesn't Burke just say "yes, I remember dad having the flashlight and leading the way"? It's not like anyone can contradict them.

But instead he says he doesn't remember, because he was a nine year old kid, it was Christmas night and the following day his world would shatter forever.

FergusMcDuck,
Well you appear particularly selective in what you consider relevant evidence, e.g. Dr Phil on the flashlight.

Because he doesn't remember a flashlight. You know, in so many places this case is discussed I keep seeing these mocking references to the Ramseys not remembering something - amnesia, ramnesia, etc
Burke does NOT remember the flashlight, he dodges that question and says he remembers the toy.

Dr Phil Interview with Burke Ramsey, episode 2, excerpt
DR PHIL: I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed, and then you snuck downstairs to play?

BURKE: Yeah, I had some toy that I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kinda in bed, and wanting to get this thing out.
BBM: Note: Burke AGREES here with Dr Phil, when he says "I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to PUT YOU TO BED, and then you snuck downstairs to play?"


The obvious response is to say "I never used a flashlight, I just used the ceiling lights."

OR/AND "No, my father never used a flashlight to put me to bed", etc.

The flashlight question acts as trigger on BR, nasty memories here, so he FORGETS it.

In conclusion Burke does NOT say he CANNOT remember his father using the flashlight to put him to bed.

Instead Burke claims he CANNOT remember using it HIMSELF when he was downstairs engaging with this unknown toy!

The flashlight patently played a part in the sexual assault and murder of JonBenet, HOW, well I've posted on that aspect many times.

Let's put it this way, if the case is BDI, then BR needs an alibi as to why he can be linked to the flashlight say via touch-dna.

It's also possible JonBenet was whacked on the head with the flashlight, resulting in the Blunt Force Trauma to her skull.

.
 
On Dr. Phil BR said he forgot to lock the door and felt guilty, implying an intruder came in the unlocked door.
 
On Dr. Phil BR said he forgot to lock the door and felt guilty, implying an intruder came in the unlocked door.
And since when is it the responsibility of a 9 year old child to make sure the door is locked at night. He admits he came downstairs later that night to play with a toy. Was he implying he opened the front door and if so why?
 
FergusMcDuck,
Well you appear particularly selective in what you consider relevant evidence, e.g. Dr Phil on the flashlight.


Burke does NOT remember the flashlight, he dodges that question and says he remembers the toy.



BBM: Note: Burke AGREES here with Dr Phil, when he says "I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to PUT YOU TO BED, and then you snuck downstairs to play?"


The obvious response is to say "I never used a flashlight, I just used the ceiling lights."

OR/AND "No, my father never used a flashlight to put me to bed", etc.

The flashlight question acts as trigger on BR, nasty memories here, so he FORGETS it.

In conclusion Burke does NOT say he CANNOT remember his father using the flashlight to put him to bed.

Instead Burke claims he CANNOT remember using it HIMSELF when he was downstairs engaging with this unknown toy!

The flashlight patently played a part in the sexual assault and murder of JonBenet, HOW, well I've posted on that aspect many times.

Let's put it this way, if the case is BDI, then BR needs an alibi as to why he can be linked to the flashlight say via touch-dna.

It's also possible JonBenet was whacked on the head with the flashlight, resulting in the Blunt Force Trauma to her skull.

.
Absolutely UkGuy! Yet again, I enjoy reading your well thought out answers. The famous flashlight belonging to the ramseys, had absolutely NO finger prints on it. Do people seriously believe John took Burke to bed using this rather than turning a light on? IF, if this actually did occur, has anyone questioned why and thought this through? Could it be that Pasty put Jonbenet in the spare bed in Burkes room that night, hence John using a torch to put Burke to bed so he wouldn't wake Jonbenet up in there. However, Burke states he went back downstairs later, did Jonbenet follow him too.
 
I don't think the parents finishing her off for him happened at all.

More plausible: Evidence shows she had been previously abused. He could have lured her down, shared the pineapple, coaxed her into the basement, abused her. If she cried out or threatened to tell, he would have been scared and angered and possibly hit her with a bat on head, and then created the garrote to stop the crying or whimpers.

Parents could have heard the commotion and came down. Freaked out & the staging ensued.

Oddities:
For sake of time only listing 5 - you've heard the dozen others!
1. Brand new Size 12 underwear identical to her size 6's. No package found, the other 5 pair not found. No ripped open gift found containing the other 5 pairs.
2. JBR misses seeing her body at 6:15 a.m. Police miss it during their search. FW doesn't see it. But, oddly JBR finds it at 1 p.m. in the dark behind the half wall, but states he saw it when he opened the door.
3. The Ransome Note. Period.
4. The entire fact that the crime scene wasn't protected. Everything touched. Items moved. The keystone cops capers!
5. JBR's unaccounted for whereabouts in leaving the house during or after the search on the day she is found, reportedly even going to the airport.

Too many oddities!!
And there's plenty more oddities that occurred morning
 
Absolutely UkGuy! Yet again, I enjoy reading your well thought out answers. The famous flashlight belonging to the ramseys, had absolutely NO finger prints on it. Do people seriously believe John took Burke to bed using this rather than turning a light on? IF, if this actually did occur, has anyone questioned why and thought this through? Could it be that Pasty put Jonbenet in the spare bed in Burkes room that night, hence John using a torch to put Burke to bed so he wouldn't wake Jonbenet up in there. However, Burke states he went back downstairs later, did Jonbenet follow him too.

Case Cracker,
Thanks for your kind remarks. Yes JonBenet sleeping in Burke's room is entirely possible, it would not be the first time the kids shared bedrooms or beds, they shared a bedroom on Christmas Eve, why would Christmas Night be any different?

Answers on a postcard to FergusMcDuck !

However, Burke states he went back downstairs later, did Jonbenet follow him too.
Quite possibly or they both snuck down for a pineapple snack and to search for hidden gifts e.g. Partially Wrapped Gifts, etc.

The flashlight likely played a dual role that night:

1. So Burke could navigate to JonBenet's bedroom, once the parents were in bed?

2. It was used to inflict the Blunt Force Trauma on JonBenet's skull?

The confirming evidence for both conditions are buried in my prior posts.

i.e. The above is not simply a flight of BDI fancy.

The Ramsey Housekeeper, Linda Hoffman-Pugh, is on record stating that she walked in on Burke and JonBenet, allegedly Playing Doctor.

If the pineapple snack had taken place on arriving back from the White's Christmas Party then Patsy would have known about this and made sure any evidence was removed to make the appearance of the breakfast bar match the Ramsey Version of Events, this did NOT happen.

As Sherlock might have said "It's elementary my dear Watson" the parents were ignorant regarding the pineapple snack, it was not on their radar!

The more mysterious aspects to the case is who moved JonBenet down to the basement, was it BR?

The initial staging is certainly childish in nature, e.g. size-12's and BR's longjohns.

Did BR break the basement window, did he assault JonBenet with the paintbrush either as a form of amateur staging or some kind of postmortem ritual, the latter is very common in sexually motivated homicides?

So there is patently more to case, particularly when you consider JR saying he broke the window earlier that year, and that he used the flashlight to put BR to bed, i.e. alibis for BR?

BR alibis JR on his claim to have broken the basement window because he misplaced his keys.

This is another example of the Ramsey's engaging in postmortem staging?

.
 
JR did not leave the house.
JR did not go to the airport.
JR did not walk to the mailbox.
I cannot find one trustworthy reference to the claim JR said he used a flashlight to put BR to bed. *(the flashlight was downstairs. Why would he bring it back down there anyway?)
There was no half wall.
JR said he broke the window, because he had previously broken the window.

9 year olds don't tie garrotes.

Regardless of ones feeling about the ramseys innocence or guilt. The principal factor in this injustice is, and always has been the BPD. They couldn't have handled this any worse.
 
Thank you.

Was the bat tested for fingerprints or DNA? (I don't care that is was found on the other side of the house.) Were the metal shavings under her nails analyzed to determine from whence they came? A bat seems like a plausible object to create a mostly straight 8 inch fracture on a skull.

Was a DNA sample ever obtained from Don Paugh?
Hi Txsleuth70
Was this the bat found outside with carpet fibers on it ...consistent with the basement carpet? Didn't the Ramseys initially deny knowing anything about it? Yet it turned out to be Burkes and he admitted it on Dr Phil. Judge Carnes Opinion. The Carnes opinion states that the bat "has fibers consistent with fibers found in the carpet in the basement where JonBenet's body was found. (SMF P 185; PSMF P 185.)" (Carnes 2003:20).
  • strange sound that he described as metal crushing/hitting concrete deep at night
Schiller's Account. "Stanton’s husband had heard a crashing sound – the sound of metal on concrete – sometime after the scream" (Schiller 1999a:531-532).
Ive always wondered if it was the bat that caused the severe head wound. If you look at the shocking state of poor little Jonbenets head, I personally feel the impact of a bat would do that kind of damage more so than a flash light.

Taking a look at the pics where this bat was found wasn't far from the basement outside. Was it dropped outside from the butlers pantry door or another house window, causing the noise heard by the neighbor?
 
Thank you.

Was the bat tested for fingerprints or DNA? (I don't care that is was found on the other side of the house.) Were the metal shavings under her nails analyzed to determine from whence they came? A bat seems like a plausible object to create a mostly straight 8 inch fracture on a skull.

Was a DNA sample ever obtained from Don Paugh?
Hi Txsleuth70
Was this the bat found outside with carpet fibers on it ...consistent with the basement carpet? Didn't the Ramseys initially deny knowing anything about it? Yet it turned out to be Burkes and he admitted it on Dr Phil. Judge Carnes Opinion. The Carnes opinion states that the bat "has fibers consistent with fibers found in the carpet in the basement where JonBenet's body was found. (SMF P 185; PSMF P 185.)" (Carnes 2003:20).
  • strange sound that he described as metal crushing/hitting concrete deep at night
Schiller's Account. "Stanton’s husband had heard a crashing sound – the sound of metal on concrete – sometime after the scream" (Schiller 1999a:531-532).
Ive always wondered if it was the bat that caused the severe head wound. If you look at the shocking state of poor little Jonbenets head, I personally feel the impact of a bat would do that kind of damage more so than a flash light.

Taking a look at the pics where this bat was found wasn't far from the basement outside. Was it dropped outside from the butlers pantry door or another house window, causing the noise heard by the neighbor?
Case Cracker,
Thanks for your kind remarks. Yes JonBenet sleeping in Burke's room is entirely possible, it would not be the first time the kids shared bedrooms or beds, they shared a bedroom on Christmas Eve, why would Christmas Night be any different?

Answers on a postcard to FergusMcDuck !


Quite possibly or they both snuck down for a pineapple snack and to search for hidden gifts e.g. Partially Wrapped Gifts, etc.

The flashlight likely played a dual role that night:

1. So Burke could navigate to JonBenet's bedroom, once the parents were in bed?

2. It was used to inflict the Blunt Force Trauma on JonBenet's skull?

The confirming evidence for both conditions are buried in my prior posts.

i.e. The above is not simply a flight of BDI fancy.

The Ramsey Housekeeper, Linda Hoffman-Pugh, is on record stating that she walked in on Burke and JonBenet, allegedly Playing Doctor.

If the pineapple snack had taken place on arriving back from the White's Christmas Party then Patsy would have known about this and made sure any evidence was removed to make the appearance of the breakfast bar match the Ramsey Version of Events, this did NOT happen.

As Sherlock might have said "It's elementary my dear Watson" the parents were ignorant regarding the pineapple snack, it was not on their radar!

The more mysterious aspects to the case is who moved JonBenet down to the basement, was it BR?

The initial staging is certainly childish in nature, e.g. size-12's and BR's longjohns.

Did BR break the basement window, did he assault JonBenet with the paintbrush either as a form of amateur staging or some kind of postmortem ritual, the latter is very common in sexually motivated homicides?

So there is patently more to case, particularly when you consider JR saying he broke the window earlier that year, and that he used the flashlight to put BR to bed, i.e. alibis for BR?

BR alibis JR on his claim to have broken the basement window because he misplaced his keys.

This is another example of the Ramsey's engaging in postmortem staging?

.
Thanks UKGUY,
Case Cracker,
Thanks for your kind remarks. Yes JonBenet sleeping in Burke's room is entirely possible, it would not be the first time the kids shared bedrooms or beds, they shared a bedroom on Christmas Eve, why would Christmas Night be any different?

Answers on a postcard to FergusMcDuck !


Quite possibly or they both snuck down for a pineapple snack and to search for hidden gifts e.g. Partially Wrapped Gifts, etc.

The flashlight likely played a dual role that night:

1. So Burke could navigate to JonBenet's bedroom, once the parents were in bed?

2. It was used to inflict the Blunt Force Trauma on JonBenet's skull?

The confirming evidence for both conditions are buried in my prior posts.

i.e. The above is not simply a flight of BDI fancy.

The Ramsey Housekeeper, Linda Hoffman-Pugh, is on record stating that she walked in on Burke and JonBenet, allegedly Playing Doctor.

If the pineapple snack had taken place on arriving back from the White's Christmas Party then Patsy would have known about this and made sure any evidence was removed to make the appearance of the breakfast bar match the Ramsey Version of Events, this did NOT happen.

As Sherlock might have said "It's elementary my dear Watson" the parents were ignorant regarding the pineapple snack, it was not on their radar!

The more mysterious aspects to the case is who moved JonBenet down to the basement, was it BR?

The initial staging is certainly childish in nature, e.g. size-12's and BR's longjohns.

Did BR break the basement window, did he assault JonBenet with the paintbrush either as a form of amateur staging or some kind of postmortem ritual, the latter is very common in sexually motivated homicides?

So there is patently more to case, particularly when you consider JR saying he broke the window earlier that year, and that he used the flashlight to put BR to bed, i.e. alibis for BR?

BR alibis JR on his claim to have broken the basement window because he misplaced his keys.

This is another example of the Ramsey's engaging in postmortem staging?

.
Thanks UKGuy, again, excellent comments. I certainly read about Linda finding the kids playing doctor in Burkes room and her being told to go away. What the hell was going on in that house? I'm still finding my way around here ( a very new member) can you lead me to your previous posts on the above. I would be interested in what you have to say regarding the size 12s. Patsy said she put them in Jonbenets drawer yet the Police state they didn't even find one pair in there of that size. Size 12s would of been HUGE on jonbenet and fallen down ( I saw that a lady made a model in jonbenet's size & placed a size 12 Bloomingdale's pair on it so we could see just how large they were ) what an eye opener, If she'd worn them under a dress, they simply would of fallen down. I wondered if it was important to someone to have jonbenet found in completely clean underpants. It was stated all underpants in the drawer had old soil marks on them despite being washed. I'd like to read more on the weapon used. I just get a feeling the bat would of easily had more of an impact and created the horrendous skull fracture right down little jonbenets head. Would love to know your thoughts UKGuy as it seems you've studied this case for a very long time :)
 
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