MA - Lindsay Clancy, Strangled 3 Children in Murder/Suicide Attempt, Duxbury, Jan 2023

[eloquence]

Ambien, Klonopin, Valium, and Ativan all at once? How could she stay awake? That's a ton of sedatives
Ambien should be illegal. I personally know of people who took this and acted in ways they would not have acted if they didn’t take it. Bad stuff.

Agree on Ambien

I doubt those were all taken together though - that is getting close to drug interaction issues. More likely tried over a longer period, XYZ combo isn't working so let's try ABC combo instead.

 

[rkendmar]

I can’t help wondering, playing around with how this medication profile came to be and I know this may sound crazy to y’all but the more I think about it, the more I think her illness wasn’t treated aggressively enough.

All these benzos/ambien/trazadone meds for sleep and anxiety- they treat a symptom. Not a disease. It’s like they were trying to get her to rest but the underlying problem was not the target.

I keep thinking about (being a mom and a person with MI) how people, including medical professionals, don’t listen. Especially postpartum. It’s just hard to get people to take you seriously and if you are compromised by psychiatric condition, it’s also hard for you to communicate to them.

I wonder if Lindsay tried to say something is wrong, really wrong, my meds (maybe even meds she was already on- lamictal and seroquel would be typical long term care for bipolar, as just one ex) are not working? And psych just kept giving her more for sleep/anxiety, saying your meds should be fine, just give them time?

Another thing- she was inpatient. Did they prescribe any of these meds that the psych then continued? Were any meds discontinued? What did the psych change from the inpatient prescriptions, and what was the justification for it?

ETA- side note, when there is a need for sedation and anxiety is a target, ime the SSRI Zoloft is prescribed over prozac. Prozac just stands out to me. It doesn’t fit for a mood disordered patient with anxiety and sleep issues, to my eye. To continue with speculation, if Lindsay has an inadequately controlled bipolar disorder and was given this medication, that could have been disastrous. Jmo.

"Another thing- she was inpatient."

When was she receiving inpatient psychiatric care and why was she discharged home, I wonder?

 

[spicyrock]

"Another thing- she was inpatient."

When was she receiving inpatient psychiatric care and why was she discharged home, I wonder?

The belief that she was inpatient comes from the NY post reporting that she was in an intensive five day a week IOP- these intensive outpatient programs follow inpatient stays.

I think she could have gone into one with her psych’s recommendation without prior admission to the hospital, so maybe we should say IF she was inpatient, were her medications continued?; I don’t think it has been confirmed one way or the other. Someone correct me if I am wrong please

 

[tzianna]

About the meds, serious psychiatric illness often requires multiple medications to treat. The drugs are tried and discarded and tried again. Different combos are tried. Sometimes you may have (using the benzos just as an example) klonopin for daily use, Ativan for panic attacks and Valium at night. I personally have a low opinion of ambien, for another ex, but sleeplessness is sometimes very hard to treat, and days without sleep is bad too.

I know it may seem mind boggling, but her prescription list is not that strange to me. It looks like she was trying everything, like her psych was aggressively treating her illness- did they make the right calls? I don’t know. Did her medication profile contribute to her actions? I don’t know. But clearly she needed meds and they were trying to get her some. A severe crisis is not the time when psychs say ok, let’s take as little medications as possible.

Jmo ime

Agree with all the above.

This discussion about meds is a huge one.
We have to remember that each patient reacts differently to each medication and one agent that might do nothing for you or your friend might be the perfect treatment for someone else. You won't know that until you have tried, hence the trial and error approach with medication combos.

Looking at the list of meds they tried I get a sense that sleep issues and depression were prominent. She was tried on multiple sedatives / hypnotics and even the antidepressants chosen were ones that are traditionally used to treat a combination of depression with insomnia where sedation is wanted (mirtazapine, trazodone).

Yes, the SSRI generally used more frequently is sertraline (Zoloft) but fluoxetine (Prozac) is preferred in younger patients and gives fewer discontinuation symptoms (unpleasant symptoms you get when you get weaned off an antidepressant), which could have made it a better choice if the doctors knew they might have to try a lot of meds in a short period of time.

The combination of mirtazapine + SSRI is one used in treatment resistant depression, maybe this is why they tried it.

Yes quetiapine is used for a lot of different things, it is an excellent medication for Bipolar disorder to balance and stabilise mood, it is used a lot in schizophrenia. Lamotrigine is also very frequently used in Bipolar for prominent depressive episodes.
However having said that, I haven't seen anything to suggest that LC had a previous diagnosis of bipolar or that she was on these meds in the past.
Antidepressants are usually avoided in Bipolar patients, because they can tip you over to mania - and LC had a lot of antidepressants prescribed/ tried which for me makes the bipolar diagnosis a little unlikely.
For a bipolar patient I would expect to see a list with fewer antidepressants and more antipsychotic/ mood stabiliser choices - I would expect to see more quetiapine, olanzapine, lamotrigine, lithium.

In my opinion, this list points to a treatment plan for Postpartum depression with postpartum psychotic symptoms as well. The psychosis could have just been emerging, hence only quetiapine tried.

I am not clear on whether she was an inpatient or not, I have read both versions. Also read that insurance declined to cover inpatient admission which makes sense because I don't know any psych doctors who would willingly choose to treat postpartum psychosis (a true psych emergency) on an outpatient basis.

This is all JMO and speculation, I guess we might find out more as more details become known.

 

[Zella]

The thing that strikes me about the meds is the period of time within which so many were prescribed. My depressed, sleepless and anxious relative has had some of these meds and was always told they take weeks (sometimes 4 sometimes 6) to have the desired effect. With the number of meds this lady had they can’t have been given long before trying something else, so a lot of them (or varying combinations) must have been tried for only a short time before switching to something else?

I'd wondered about this too. I have a former classmate who's struggled to find medication that works for her paranoid schizophrenia, and she has documented her journey on that via social media, so that's where I've learned most of what I know about this sort of thing. She's on something that is working now, but in the year plus where her previous meds weren't working and they were trying other things, this was the issue she kept running into. She'd have to be on it for a while before they could even see if it was really working.

If LC was unhappy with the medications, how would they even begin narrowing down what was working and what wasn't if they're using so many at once or perhaps switching them out rapidly? It would be really instructive to see the timeline on the medications and if some of the results in her toxicology screening were indeed trace amounts because she was not on them actively anymore. MOO

 

[spicyrock]

Agree with all the above.

This discussion about meds is a huge one.
We have to remember that each patient reacts differently to each medication and one agent that might do nothing for you or your friend might be the perfect treatment for someone else. You won't know that until you have tried, hence the trial and error approach with medication combos.

Looking at the list of meds they tried I get a sense that sleep issues and depression were prominent. She was tried on multiple sedatives / hypnotics and even the antidepressants chosen were ones that are traditionally used to treat a combination of depression with insomnia where sedation is wanted (mirtazapine, trazodone).

Yes, the SSRI generally used more frequently is sertraline (Zoloft) but fluoxetine (Prozac) is preferred in younger patients and gives fewer discontinuation symptoms (unpleasant symptoms you get when you get weaned off an antidepressant), which could have made it a better choice if the doctors knew they might have to try a lot of meds in a short period of time.

The combination of mirtazapine + SSRI is one used in treatment resistant depression, maybe this is why they tried it.

Yes quetiapine is used for a lot of different things, it is an excellent medication for Bipolar disorder to balance and stabilise mood, it is used a lot in schizophrenia. Lamotrigine is also very frequently used in Bipolar for prominent depressive episodes.
However having said that, I haven't seen anything to suggest that LC had a previous diagnosis of bipolar or that she was on these meds in the past.
Antidepressants are usually avoided in Bipolar patients, because they can tip you over to mania - and LC had a lot of antidepressants prescribed/ tried which for me makes the bipolar diagnosis a little unlikely.
For a bipolar patient I would expect to see a list with fewer antidepressants and more antipsychotic/ mood stabiliser choices - I would expect to see more quetiapine, olanzapine, lamotrigine, lithium.

In my opinion, this list points to a treatment plan for Postpartum depression with postpartum psychotic symptoms as well. The psychosis could have just been emerging, hence only quetiapine tried.

I am not clear on whether she was an inpatient or not, I have read both versions. Also read that insurance declined to cover inpatient admission which makes sense because I don't know any psych doctors who would willingly choose to treat postpartum psychosis (a true psych emergency) on an outpatient basis.

This is all JMO and speculation, I guess we might find out more as more details become known.

This all makes sense to me. I’m glad to have discussion around the analysis of the meds. I think, in addition to having my personal lens for my perspective, it’s the lamotrigine (lamictal) that really sticks out as suggesting bipolar. It’s a mood stabilizer with solid antidepressant qualities as well as some manic protection. I know it’s prescribed for other types of depression (and also of course for epilepsy) but I think that’s relatively uncommon.

For everything else though, I agree, it’s not screaming bipolar. It’s screaming this woman can’t sleep and has primary complaints of anxiety and depression.

Good point on how the seroquel could have been a later addition.

ETA, I just realized you are a psych! Thanks for the informed insight.

 

[Which_pancake]

Attorney: Former CT resident Lindsay Clancy was 'overmedicated' when kids were killed

An emergency court hearing was held Friday for Lindsay Clancy, the former Wallingford...

www.ctinsider.com

According to this article, the district attorney says LC can move while her attorney says she can't:

"Reddington called the chief's statement a "blatant untruth" and said his client remains in a hospital bed and is unable to move.

"She can move," an attorney for the district attorney's office argued during Friday's hearing. "She is not paralyzed. She can move her legs. She can move her arms. She has been writing and being able to verbally communicate."

Seems like an odd thing to be arguing over - either she can or she can't. MOO

 

[LvsAMystry]

Ambien, Klonopin, Valium, and Ativan all at once? How could she stay awake? That's a ton of sedatives
Ambien should be illegal. I personally know of people who took this and acted in ways they would not have acted if they didn’t take it. Bad stuff.

Agree on the Ambien. Ambien stories are literally crazy.

 

[spicyrock]

Attorney: Former CT resident Lindsay Clancy was 'overmedicated' when kids were killed

An emergency court hearing was held Friday for Lindsay Clancy, the former Wallingford...

www.ctinsider.com

According to this article, the district attorney says LC can move while her attorney says she can't:

"Reddington called the chief's statement a "blatant untruth" and said his client remains in a hospital bed and is unable to move.

"She can move," an attorney for the district attorney's office argued during Friday's hearing. "She is not paralyzed. She can move her legs. She can move her arms. She has been writing and being able to verbally communicate."

Seems like an odd thing to be arguing over - either she can or she can't. MOO

I think the difference between the tone of the DA and the tone of Lindsay’s husband and family is notable. Can anyone speak to that? I know they brought charges so they want a conviction, but do they seem… emotional? Not sure what the right word is.

I can’t imagine how awful it would be to have to discover and prosecute this kind of homicide. Just, the details must be excruciating to know and be so close to.

I don’t want to see LC convicted of murder. She’s sick, that’s really clear to me. But I feel for everyone who has to touch this case

 

[Stunned]

Ambien, Klonopin, Valium, and Ativan all at once? How could she stay awake? That's a ton of sedatives
Ambien should be illegal. I personally know of people who took this and acted in ways they would not have acted if they didn’t take it. Bad stuff.

From personal experience, I would dissuade my worst enemy from taking Ambien. That’s some wicked voodoo!

 

[spicyrock]

Reading up on these meds and their occurrence in homicides and attempted homicides. Amitryptaline (elavil) has come up several times. Here is one case, there are multiple I found with a google search.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/1713DE7770140890998AB83CC19C1E82/S0955603600043397a.pdf/antidepressants_and_murder.pdf

ETA: this one is about ambien in combination with ssris (like prozac)- I think the second case is particularly worth reading when I think about how LC’s husband has talked about her state

Two Cases of Zolpidem-Associated Homicide

Zolpidem is the most commonly prescribed medication for the short-term treatment of insomnia. Adverse reactions include nightmares, confusion, and memory deficits. Reported rare adverse neuropsychiatric reactions include sensory distortions such as hallucinations. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

ETA one more time- didn’t the announcement from her lawyer mention “involuntary intoxication”? That seems to reference ambien - in the other articles I’m reading that’s what they call the automatic seeming ambien behaviors that people don’t recall doing

 

[BrownRice]

From personal experience, I would dissuade my worst enemy from taking Ambien. That’s some wicked voodoo!

I think everyone is different. My spouse has been taking it for maybe a decade with no side effects at all.

 

[BrownRice]

We don't really have all the details yet, but with what we do know - Lindsay had 10 different meds in her tox screen & husband was not told she couldn't be left alone with the kids, etc. IYO, is it warranted?

@Alethea, same question posted to you if you care to offer an opinion.

I don’t recall ever seeing this confirmed that he wasn’t to leave her alone? Do you have a link? I think we all assume he should not have (hindsight), but it seems like he was extremely involved in her care and truly doing everything he could. My thought is he definitely would not have left her alone if that was instructed.

 

[Zella]

I don’t recall ever seeing this confirmed that he wasn’t to leave her alone? Do you have a link? I think we all assume he should not have (hindsight), but it seems like he was extremely involved in her care and truly doing everything he could. My thought is he definitely would not have left her alone if that was instructed.

Her attorney has said that her husband wasn't told to not leave her alone. I think that's what the person you're responding to is saying too and they're agreeing with you--it's just hard to follow because there are so many negatives. Even trying to word this comment threw me off because there's not a super clear way to say it. MOO

 

[rkendmar]

If physician's orders were that Lindsey not be left alone then she should have been an inpatient, as 24/7 supervision would be impossible to do at home with only one other adult (showers, toileting?).

 

[rkendmar]

Attorney: Former CT resident Lindsay Clancy was 'overmedicated' when kids were killed

An emergency court hearing was held Friday for Lindsay Clancy, the former Wallingford...

www.ctinsider.com

According to this article, the district attorney says LC can move while her attorney says she can't:

"Reddington called the chief's statement a "blatant untruth" and said his client remains in a hospital bed and is unable to move.

"She can move," an attorney for the district attorney's office argued during Friday's hearing. "She is not paralyzed. She can move her legs. She can move her arms. She has been writing and being able to verbally communicate."

Seems like an odd thing to be arguing over - either she can or she can't. MOO

IMO, the attorney means Lindsey can't walk ("move").
The DA means Lindsey can "move" her arms, legs and hands.
JMO.

 

[Cedars]

I think the difference between the tone of the DA and the tone of Lindsay’s husband and family is notable. Can anyone speak to that? I know they brought charges so they want a conviction, but do they seem… emotional? Not sure what the right word is.

I can’t imagine how awful it would be to have to discover and prosecute this kind of homicide. Just, the details must be excruciating to know and be so close to.

I don’t want to see LC convicted of murder. She’s sick, that’s really clear to me. But I feel for everyone who has to touch this case

I think the DA is focussed on the dead children, usually posters get pretty upset on here about dead children, too.

JMO

 

[spicyrock]

I think the DA is focussed on the dead children, usually posters get pretty upset on here about dead children, too.

JMO

Don’t they also get pretty into concern for the family of the victims?

 

[Erutan]

We don't really have all the details yet, but with what we do know - Lindsay had 10 different meds in her tox screen & husband was not told she couldn't be left alone with the kids, etc. IYO, is it warranted?

@Alethea, same question posted to you if you care to offer an opinion.

Bbm.
Sorry, but I thought he was told ?

 

[spicyrock]

To clarify my thoughts on the DA’s attitude-

If I had to prosecute this case I think I would be more sensitive for the sake of the wishes and feelings of the father and grandparents of the victims. I think I would take a gentler approach- not in my actions because I would still want to see my perpetrator secured in custody and on the path to a court resolution- but in my tone.

I don’t know what is normal in a case like this. It’s not like I expect them to do anything differently, I don’t know what to expect at all. But it’s jarring to hear them downplaying her injuries in juxtaposition to her husband, the father of the dead children, who found his family dead and almost dead, taking a completely different tone.

I don’t know what the implications are, I just find it notable