MA - Lindsay Clancy, Strangled 3 Children in Murder/Suicide Attempt, Duxbury, Jan 2023

[iamshadow21]

To clarify my thoughts on the DA’s attitude-

If I had to prosecute this case I think I would be more sensitive for the sake of the wishes and feelings of the father and grandparents of the victims. I think I would take a gentler approach- not in my actions because I would still want to see my perpetrator secured in custody and on the path to a court resolution- but in my tone.

I don’t know what is normal in a case like this. It’s not like I expect them to do anything differently, I don’t know what to expect at all. But it’s jarring to hear them downplaying her injuries in juxtaposition to her husband, the father of the dead children, who found his family dead and almost dead, taking a completely different tone.

I don’t know what the implications are, I just find it notable

The prosecutor, as far as I know, doesn't have to take the feelings of the family or their wishes into consideration at all.

The crimes that LC is charged with, the plaintiff is the state, not her family, not her dead children. It seems strange and wrong, but it's the way the legal system is structured.

This isn't civil court where an injured party is looking for restitution. It's a criminal case.

For example, a victim's family can be completely, vocally anti-death penalty, even for the murderer of their loved one. A prosecutor can - and will - still pursue the death penalty as a punishment if the severity of the crime qualifies it as a DP case.

It's always more pleasant when the prosecutor and the courts are aligned with a victim's family in what they want out of a trial and sentencing, but it's not a requirement, especially in a case where both victims and perpetrator are intimate kin.

Very much not a lawyer, please correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

[nightowl1975]

Bbm.
Sorry, but I thought he was told ?

According to her attorney, her family was never told that she wasn’t to be left alone with the children.

 

[Erutan]

Not having suffered PPD nor PPS personally (thankfully !) -- does anyone here know if there are hallucinations ?
I was thinking if Lindsay went into a blackout state where she saw the children as something else, something disturbing as in a being she had to physically attack for her own safety ?

Sounds crazy but depending on how severe her psychosis was, she might have seen something that was not her children.

At the start of following this case, I felt that LC should be put away in a prison or mental facility for the remainder of her days.
But after reading about the over medication and the severe illnesses she suffered, it appears that she might not understand that she killed anyone; and there has been a lot of sympathy for her here in the thread and elsewhere , so my opinion may be wrong and needs adjusting ?
I admit I struggle with some anger against her, but LC was very ill !

Curious if LE are going to press forward with murder charges, or if they're going to recommend a mental health facility for x amount of years ?

With some cases of filicide, I called the mother an 'egg donor' as I felt the term "mother" was undeserved.
But in LC's case, people around her and some here in the thread said she loved her children dearly !


So, the meds and her post partum depression or psychosis may have resulted in the killings ?
Was this outright murder, or was it losing touch with all reality that ended up in the deaths of three children without LC knowing that she did this ?

What does everyone here think ?
M00.

 

[Erutan]

According to her attorney, her family was never told that she wasn’t to be left alone with the children.

Bolding mine.

Wondering if any doctors or psychologists have spoken up, and said otherwise ?

 

[spicyrock]

Not having suffered PPD nor PPS personally (thankfully !) -- does anyone here know if there are hallucinations ?
I was thinking if Lindsay went into a blackout state where she saw the children as something else, something disturbing as in a being she had to physically attack for her own safety ?

Sounds crazy but depending on how severe her psychosis was, she might have seen something that was not her children.

At the start of following this case, I felt that LC should be put away in a prison or mental facility for the remainder of her days.
But after reading about the over medication and the severe illnesses she suffered, it appears that she might not understand that she killed anyone; and there has been a lot of sympathy for her here in the thread and elsewhere , so my opinion may be wrong and needs adjusting ?
I admit I struggle with some anger against her, but LC was very ill !

Curious if LE are going to press forward with murder charges, or if they're going to recommend a mental health facility for x amount of years ?

With some cases of filicide, I called the mother an 'egg donor' as I felt the term "mother" was undeserved.
But in LC's case, people around her and some here in the thread said she loved her children dearly !


So, the meds and her post partum depression or psychosis may have resulted in the killings ?
Was this outright murder, or was it losing touch with all reality that ended up in the deaths of three children without LC knowing that she did this ?

What does everyone here think ?
M00.

Hallucinations, auditory and visual, are a component of psychosis. Faces blur into other peoples’ faces. Voices tell you to do things, they come from the tv, the radio, inside your head. This happens in psychotic depression.

There are so many different presentations of hallucinations, many different things people see and hear. There are also delusions- beliefs that replace your reality.

I don’t see much of a chance for her to live outside of a mental institution. I don’t know. Maybe I am just thinking about how if I were her I wouldn’t want to. I would never feel safe with myself again.

 

[Cedars]

Bolding mine.

Wondering if any doctors or psychologists have spoken up, and said otherwise ?

IMO, this became a legal case, rather than a medical case, as soon as police arrived on scene. IMO medical staff will consult lawyers and will be very, very careful about what they say to anyone, if they say anything at all. It's all coming from the defense attorney and he has one job, which is to defend his client(s)* from police/ prosecution.

JMO

 

[Erutan]

All IMHO

Maybe (and God willing) this is the case that will change the way we handle these tragedies. “We“ as in the US.

Hopefully we will take Britain’s Infanticide Act of 1938 into account and enact a similar law as many civilized countries have.

posting an article from 2020 that I find enlightening

She killed her children in a postpartum psychotic episode. Does she belong in prison?

"It can happen to anybody. I could be your sister, or your daughter, or your wife."

www.motherjones.com

interesting takeaway from this article “more than 100 women are currently in prison in California for killing their children” 40% of those were under 1 year old and 70% of these women are serving a life sentence

Other civilized countries don’t look at these unbelievable occurrences with severely mentally ill mothers as criminal but rather as horribly tragic

I think Lindsay had a horrific psychotic break. I do not believe she will be found criminally guilty- especially since she is in Massachusetts.

The good people of Massachusetts (and others) have already contributed over $565k to her husband through “Go Fund Me” in just a few days. The testimony from those who know Lindsay and Patrick is heartwarming. Fellow nurses especially have contributed- because they know this is not due to criminality but rather due to illness.

I think Lindsay will be sent to a psychiatric facility, her husband will divorce her/ annul his marriage and be able to “start over” as best he can and Lindsay will be subject to unbearable guilt and depression for the rest of her days when she recovers from her mental break and is conscious of what she has done.

God bless Lindsay and God bless her family and friends.
God bless her three innocent angels.
What a unbelievable tragedy.
Praying that one day she can forgive herself and find some joy. Praying that she will be allowed to advocate for others who have postpartum psychosis.

This story makes me so very sad for all involved.

Bbm.
The bolded seems important.
Which was it ?

Partly based on the perceptions of others who knew Lindsay and are vouching for her good character, I'm wondering if she will plead insanity and the judge will allow her to spend time at a mental facility, as opposed to prison .
It appeared to LE to be a criminal act, but will the judge and jury see it that way ?

For non-sufferers of PPD or any illness related to it , some women don't know what LC went through.

I'm still struggling to even think of saying, "God bless Lindsay".
Those little ones were adorable and had all of their lives ahead of them.
Sorry, maybe I'm being too harsh ?
M00.

 

[DS2021]

What does everyone here think ?

I truly believe she loved her kids and did all she could to avoid this. I think it's very likely she was completely detached from reality when this happened. I'm not a doctor and this is all MOO

 

[Erutan]

IMO, this became a legal case, rather than a medical case, as soon as police arrived on scene. IMO medical staff will consult lawyers and will be very, very careful about what they say to anyone, if they say anything at all. It's all coming from the defense attorney and he has one job, which is to defend his client(s)* from police/ prosecution.

JMO

Ohhh... ok.
Thanks for clarifying that !
It makes more sense to think about this case that way.

And this case is complicated due to the over medication on top of LC's illness !

 

[Erutan]

I wonder if she was able to avoid taking her prescribed medication once she left inpatient care? Meaning she pretended to take it but didn't in the days leading up to the killings?

I'd think they did a blood draw at the hospital ?
To know where she was at as far as meds ?
Imo this would be done to know what type of meds needed to be given, if LC was physically injured ?

 

[nightowl1975]

Bolding mine.

Wondering if any doctors or psychologists have spoken up, and said otherwise ?

Her medical team isn’t going to release a statement to the media because of privacy laws.

 

[spicyrock]

Bbm.
The bolded seems important.
Which was it ?

Partly based on the perceptions of others who knew Lindsay and are vouching for her good character, I'm wondering if she will plead insanity and the judge will allow her to spend time at a mental facility, as opposed to prison .
It appeared to LE to be a criminal act, but will the judge and jury see it that way ?

For non-sufferers of PPD or any illness related to it , some women don't know what LC went through.

I'm still struggling to even think of saying, "God bless Lindsay".
Those little ones were adorable and had all of their lives ahead of them.
Sorry, maybe I'm being too harsh ?
M00.

I feel the same way to an extent. I have so much empathy for her. And I think this happened because she is sick, not because of some moral defect in her. But what she did is too grave and horrifying to be careless in how we think about her- she’s an extremely sick woman who killed her children, not a cause to be celebrated- does that make sense? I have trouble articulating how I feel about it. Like, no, I am not wanting to yell god bless Lindsay, either. It’s serious. And the postpartum conditions she was suffering from are serious, too.

We can’t forget what she did. That would be to forget why she did it. We can’t afford to forget. It might not be a crime (imo) but that doesn’t change what happened. That’s kind of how I see it.

 

[spicyrock]

It’s so hard to think about the possibility that Lindsay was a good mom and engaged psych patient, her husband was a good partner and available caretaker, her medical care was solid and her psych was attentive and aggressive with her illness, her medications were appropriately prescribed and she did not have bad reactions from them, and still, in a span of twenty five minutes the children were dead.

Just makes you feel like the ground could drop out from under you at any moment

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

This incredibly sad situation made me remember a case study we did for Abnormal Psychology class.
A 23-year-old schizophrenic man, Micheal, killed his mother in a psychosis. He was found not criminally responsible. His family had a very hard time acknowledging that their son/brother had killed their wife/mother but eventually, they found a way to find peace. It's a longish read, but I feel it puts both perspectives together.
What Michael Stewart did - Toronto Star

 

[keek]

It’s so hard to think about the possibility that Lindsay was a good mom and engaged psych patient, her husband was a good partner and available caretaker, her medical care was solid and her psych was attentive and aggressive with her illness, her medications were appropriately prescribed and she did not have bad reactions from them, and still, in a span of twenty five minutes the children were dead.

Just makes you feel like the ground could drop out from under you at any moment

Her husband said he was aware of all her struggles of course, totally involved with her/ the children that were his life, their care, her care. EVERYTHING. I'd think if he saw her NOT able to be with her babies and behaving not well in any way, he'd NEVER of left her to go pick up take out. No matter what he was told. IN that short amount of time, once he was out the door, she acted. That is what I can't get past. Then she went upstairs to the 2nd floor it seems, the children were in the basement, and jumped out. She was aware to attempt to harm herself /suicide. THis all happened as soon as her husband was out the door. She acted quickly. This to me is so tricky concerning the charges in this case. I am aware of the psychosis and mainly, to me, was due to the drugs affecting her mind for a while on top of the chemical changes due to post partum. It's just that in my mind, she waited for her chance. Yes, I'm sick about it of course. I think she is 34 and her life is over /any future. I also am not sure how long her husband can sustain himself emotionally and mentally as well, as he has been in this awful thing so far, once time and reality shows it's signs.

 

[Cedars]

What does everyone here think ?

I think the known facts have to be collected from reliable sources and the case taken to court and presented to a jury, who will decide based on the arguments that are presented in court, not having made up their minds ahead of time....

In my community in Canada, a long case has finally been resolved with a guilty plea by the mother and a ten year sentence. Her child was was 18 months. There are many cases here where the person is found not criminally responsible (including the Manitoba bus beheader), but there's been no outcry about this mother's case. Victoria mother intends to plead guilty to baby's murder in 2015

ETA linked more concise news article.

 

[Stunned]

Bbm.
The bolded seems important.
Which was it ?

Partly based on the perceptions of others who knew Lindsay and are vouching for her good character, I'm wondering if she will plead insanity and the judge will allow her to spend time at a mental facility, as opposed to prison .
It appeared to LE to be a criminal act, but will the judge and jury see it that way ?

For non-sufferers of PPD or any illness related to it , some women don't know what LC went through.

I'm still struggling to even think of saying, "God bless Lindsay".
Those little ones were adorable and had all of their lives ahead of them.
Sorry, maybe I'm being too harsh ?
M00.

I understand how hard this is to understand and I think it’s mainly because this is one of those “woman’s issues” that for years polite society didn’t talk about. Well, it’s time to drag it out of the closet. It’s been happening for years and woman and the people who love them desperately need help. Let’s keep this front and center, let’s stop cringing when we see Andrea Yates in our minds eye.

 

[iamshadow21]

Her husband said he was aware of all her struggles of course, totally involved with her/ the children that were his life, their care, her care. EVERYTHING. I'd think if he saw her NOT able to be with her babies and behaving not well in any way, he'd NEVER of left her to go pick up take out. No matter what he was told. IN that short amount of time, once he was out the door, she acted. That is what I can't get past. Then she went upstairs to the 2nd floor it seems, the children were in the basement, and jumped out. She was aware to attempt to harm herself /suicide. THis all happened as soon as her husband was out the door. She acted quickly. This to me is so tricky concerning the charges in this case. I am aware of the psychosis and mainly, to me, was due to the drugs affecting her mind for a while on top of the chemical changes due to post partum. It's just that in my mind, she waited for her chance. Yes, I'm sick about it of course. I think she is 34 and her life is over /any future. I also am not sure how long her husband can sustain himself emotionally and mentally as well, as he has been in this awful thing so far, once time and reality shows it's signs.

I happens. The Perinovic family in Melbourne, Australia, just over two years ago. The father left the house for a very short period to get groceries. The mother took the brief window of time to kill their three children and herself. The father was briefly suspected and was I think arrested - they definitely handcuffed him at the scene - but very soon after her mental health was made known and they actually publicly declared he was completely blameless and that their deaths were a direct result of her mental illness. I don't know exactly which condition, or whether it was ever announced publicly, but the implication in what was reported was that she was legally not responsible for her actions, so I suspect psychosis of some kind was a major factor.

It's easy to assume that because someone acts decisively in a small window of opportunity that they have a grasp on reality and understand the consequences and gravity of their actions, but the fact is that it's not as simple as that.

 

[Zella]

IN that short amount of time, once he was out the door, she acted. That is what I can't get past. Then she went upstairs to the 2nd floor it seems, the children were in the basement, and jumped out. She was aware to attempt to harm herself /suicide. THis all happened as soon as her husband was out the door. She acted quickly. This to me is so tricky concerning the charges in this case. I am aware of the psychosis and mainly, to me, was due to the drugs affecting her mind for a while on top of the chemical changes due to post partum. It's just that in my mind, she waited for her chance.

FWIW I think someone can still be legitimately incapacitated by mental illness and still act quickly and decisively like this. I don't think one rules out the other. Many women who end up killing their children due to postpartum psychosis think they're somehow helping them by killing them and many of them are suicidal. Sort of one of those "I'm going to end your suffering and then I'm going to end mine" sorts of mindsets.

If she was suffering from psychosis that made her believe she needed to kill her children and then kill herself, there's a very sad logic in waiting until nobody else is there to stop you. Depending on what symptoms she was having, she may have even started to see her husband as a threat or an obstacle to this thing she felt like she had to do.

I referenced a person I know from school who is paranoid schizophrenia earlier today on this thread. While going through psychosis, she's believed that everyone from her parents to her husband to the city police are after her and are not to be trusted. She's lashed out at them quite aggressively in these moments and even been put under involuntary holds in a mental health facility. When she's better, she is very embarrassed by these moments and can realize that what she was experiencing was not real and that she has a very loving, empathetic spouse and loving parents who are very concerned for her.

But in the throes of psychosis, she often interprets people legitimately trying to help her and care for her as the enemy, to be avoided and mistrusted and subverted. So, a husband who's trying to be a caretaker and help you take your meds and advocate for you may look very different to someone who's battling with homicidal and suicidal impulses.

MOO

 

[keek]

FWIW I think someone can still be legitimately incapacitated by mental illness and still act quickly and decisively like this. I don't think one rules out the other. Many women who end up killing their children due to postpartum psychosis think they're somehow helping them by killing them and many of them are suicidal. Sort of one of those "I'm going to end your suffering and then I'm going to end mine" sorts of mindsets.

If she was suffering from psychosis that made her believe she needed to kill her children and then kill herself, there's a very sad logic in waiting until nobody else is there to stop you. Depending on what symptoms she was having, she may have even started to see her husband as a threat or an obstacle to this thing she felt like she had to do.

I referenced a person I know from school who is paranoid schizophrenia earlier today on this thread. While going through psychosis, she's believed that everyone from her parents to her husband to the city police are after her and are not to be trusted. She's lashed out at them quite aggressively in these moments and even been put under involuntary holds in a mental health facility. When she's better, she is very embarrassed by these moments and can realize that what she was experiencing was not real and that she has a very loving, empathetic spouse and loving parents who are very concerned for her.

But in the throes of psychosis, she often interprets people legitimately trying to help her and care for her as the enemy, to be avoided and mistrusted and subverted. So, a husband who's trying to be a caretaker and help you take your meds and advocate for you may look very different to someone who's battling with homicidal and suicidal impulses.

MOO

Thank you for your insight, it's appreciated.