MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #4
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Charlot123
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I think you are right. However, any case, no matter how it ends (and I assume, things look very different from the jury box), should be a learning experience.
Here: if KR did hit JO and caused his death and she walks free, then, it only shows to us that any investigation should be performed according to the rules, and "he's a cop, his house is off-limits" approach is going to backfire, and badly so.
As to KR: I absolutely disapprove of her involving TB into the investigation and dragging in this mob of his followers. However, as a human, a woman, I do have an intuitive feeling that she had the reason to be upset about how the relationship with JO was ending. That part I understand.
Anyhow, no winners here, and JO lost his life, and his wards are orphaned again. Too sad.
"experts" say a lot of things. often in trials you'll see "experts" saying the exact opposite things. OJ's defense had "expert" witnesses aplenty.
exactly. it doesn't make a lick of sense... which is why you should be asking questions about the validity of that "deletion" data and trying to decide if it even fits with respect to other activity.
I want to put another thing out there... and this may hurt feelings of some who support the accused... but there is a lot of negative talk about the demeanor of the victim's witnesses. Understand... not only did KR kill JO (their friend)... but she's also got her lawyer - not just trying to get her off - but actively trying to pin the murder on JO's friends or their family.
Do you get the difference? From their perspective... KR has to be considered the lowest of human scum and it's pretty obvious why some are going to bristle at accusatory questions from her defense team or respond with emotion and hostility.
I am not Sherlock H.
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Yes so much of this is true. And I think the following point is paramount:
“that any investigation should be performed according to the rules….”
It is difficult to determine whether or not that is the case here. But IMO I would hope that Canton MA internal affairs will be investigating this - and if deemed that they cannot impartially do so (and so far seems to be the case?) the AG, DA, or even FBI should do so. (Maybe the latter is related to an apparent FBI IA investigation noted above IIRC and I am simply unaware?)
As others have said too, sadly JOK is dead from some incident or incidents that occurred that evening or early morning.
But from what has been observed thus far, the investigation seems inadequate, incomplete, or even suspect IMO. And why no DNA or other work done on the wounds on his arm? That alone is bothersome and highly irregular IMO.
Even if KR might have accidentally backed into JOK, why is the case charged as done? Is there not an involuntary manslaughter type charge available in MA, Canton? IANAL. MOO
Elliot_Alderson
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This is how trials go. The defense tries to trip up prosecution's witnesses. Were you expecting everyone to be in agreement?
Weki
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I was called for jury duty a year ago and they called us all separately to do the voir dire and they put me on the stand. It was a nerve wrecking experience being up there. I couldn’t remember the answers to a couple basic questions. I can’t EVEN IMAGINE what it’s like for these witnesses under these circumstances.
I think this is a great question. I haven't read the explicit answer, but I'm guessing it has something to do with the idea that KR knew she hit JO... and then left him in the snow w/o calling 911... alerting anyone... etc.. and he died.
Maybe others can confirm or offer more?
Weki
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I am not Sherlock H.
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IANAL and don’t disagree. Good thoughts and points. I think though, intent would be a key operative here. And I don’t mean possibly realizing something after the fact. If that even is the case here. I believe those two factors - intent vs. realization - differ.
IMO knowing that I might have done something, could differ from whether I did something intentionally or accidentally. MOO
As to this particular tragic case, it seems that apparent excessive consumption of alcohol did not do anyone any favors either. And it seems to have possibly impacted recollection and judgment among many other elements? MOO
Appeals can be difficult to get, but I agree the judge likely made a serious error in allowing Turtleboy's fans' behavior directly into the proceedings. I've seen no evidence that Read directed their behavior towards some of the witnesses, and I doubt there is any. His case is being tried separately, and as it happens, is the reason there is no court today as he has a hearing of some sort this afternoon.
But the judge isn't the one who insisted on keeping the FBI investigation out of this case. The FBI shared limited information that they believe might be of assistance to Read's defense, but much of that cannot be shared beyond the involved attorneys and the judge. This is likely because whatever the FBI is working on that has connection to the Read case is still ongoing. And they aren't inclined to let anyone know, including the judge in this case, who their targets may or may not be. What is clear is that the FBI shared quite a bit of phone data they obtained as part of their investigation and this info is being used in the trial by Read's attorneys. We know the State conducted no such searches as their desire was, and is still, to convict Read with as little investigation as possible.
I do fault the judge for not allowing a continuance of the trial. If, as some suspect, the state troopers who "investigated" this case are being investigated by the Feds, a delay in this trial would have been prudent for both sides. In fact, Lally also requested a delay, but Judge Bev (possibly at the insistence of the Norfolk District Attorney or maybe because she's just tired of the circus) wanted this rammed through.
RSBM.
There's also no evidence that John was hit by a car. And I mean literally none.
Friday will mark the fourth week of testimony and not a single expert has testified as to what happened to John. We don't even have a time and manner of death since the medical examiner hasn't been on the stand. There hasn't been a single accident reconstructionist to explain the lack of wounds to John's body, the gouge to the back of his head, the scratches on his arm. We have no idea how he ended up 10 feet up on the lawn. Or how the SUV drove 20+ mph in reverse and hit a person without suffering body damage. Nor has there been any explanation of the taillight shards which were supposedly found at the scene.
It's one thing to believe the defense theory is fanciful. However they don't have to prove a thing. It's the commonwealth that needs to make the case for second degree murder and so far they have failed abysmally.
If they had started with the physical evidence, it would have cemented in the jurors minds that John died from a collision with a car and then all the stuff about the Solo cups and whether Karen said "I hit him" wouldn't have made much of a difference. That fact that they didn't lead with this makes me suspect the physical evidence is not so great for them. But maybe I'm wrong. Hopefully, we'll see next week.
Can you explain the FBI investigation? You don't think that might mean something here doesn't quite add up?
How would owner's identity be relevant to the trial? Not really sure what youre asking.
According to testimony it was a small white dog IIRC. Not super descriptive I know but from memory all that happenned prior to AMcC getting the text to go pick up CA. Not clear on precise timing via testimony. My guess is it was simply elicited by prosecution to establish AMc's movements earlier in the evening and nothing more. jmo
I am not fully onboard with the suggestion that has been made that Allie took Chloe with her when she picked up Colin.
But it has been suggested the lost dog story is just a story. That is why I ask.
Overcharging is very common in these parts, and I'd imagine others as well. Most people couldn't dream of putting up the sort of defense Karen has been able to, never mind getting investigative help from the FBI.
Had Karen agreed to plead guilty to a manslaughter charge in order to drop the murder charge, I'm sure the State would have been very happy to accept and the people in the house that night would never had to answer any questions about what the hell was going on that night.
Innocent people plead guilty to lesser charges all the time. Not because they are actually guilty, but because they cannot afford to put up the sort of defense Read as been able to.
nodamselindistress
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I do not believe that JO was "set up" and that an assault was pre-planned, not at all. They had no way of knowing ahead of time that KR would stay in the car and not go to the house with JO. What would have been the motive anyway?
I believe what happened was that JO was approaching the house as CA was leaving the house and words were exchanged and CA started throwing punches. In his inebriated state, JO fell and hit his head on the steps or some other structure, knocking him unconscious. He dropped his phone during the fight. CA panicked, his ride came, he hopped in AM's car and off they went. He or she somehow got in touch with their parents and explained what happened, and good 'ol mom JM came to the rescue.
They had seen where KR was parked along the street waiting for JO and that is where they decided to dump his body after they found him unconscious and thought he was dead. Then JM called his phone to find it and put it under him.
That is the best I can come up with right now considering the evidence presented thus far.
I believe what happened was that JO was approaching the house as CA was leaving the house and words were exchanged and CA started throwing punches. In his inebriated state, JO fell and hit his head on the steps or some other structure, knocking him unconscious. He dropped his phone during the fight. CA panicked, his ride came, he hopped in AM's car and off they went. He or she somehow got in touch with their parents and explained what happened, and good 'ol mom JM came to the rescue.
They had seen where KR was parked along the street waiting for JO and that is where they decided to dump his body after they found him unconscious and thought he was dead. Then JM called his phone to find it and put it under him.
That is the best I can come up with right now considering the evidence presented thus far.
nodamselindistress
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The suggestion is that Caitlan Albert took the dog when her bf Tristan picked her up. That was much later, closer to 2am
SpiderFalcon
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Well, I'm sure if you ask her, she just didn't want her butt to be randomly dialing 911.
I'm actually reasonably sure that's exactly what happened. Tristan's return makes no sense at all and was really never explained. BA Sr.'s comment about Chloe maybe being in a closet is almost laughable, Chloe had no reaction to all the activity on the front lawn as her owners claim they never heard a thing, and Jen McCabe burst into the house and then the bedroom and somehow never heard nor saw the dog.
This isn't all the puzzle pieces, but it's enough to see what the picture is depicting.
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