MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #6

[ForensicMass]

Ok so let's take the 30 minutes, which is the longest. How long do you think it took to get her back in the woods, remove her clothing, and build a fire, without any sexual assault or fighting, I don't mean hanging around watching the fire grow, just gathering the wood, (if that's what he used, and I think that's all he used) and enough to get it going?

My girlfriend is 110 pounds. I'm 190. Not to get graphic, but I'll give you my personal two cents. First, we agree that she was dead before the firewood gathering, So let's add that in- it can take approximately 4 minutes to strangle someone to death. Less than that to lose consciousness, but we know he took it further than that. So, that being said,
I am willing to say that I could accomplish all of this, even assuming she WAS fighting. - capturing my gf, restraining her, dragging her 130 feet down a path, easily stepping over a couple downed logs would take me no more than 2-3 minutes. Strangulation an additional 4 minutes. Gathering wood 1 minute maybe 2. there is a ton of it there, and it was all bone dry. If I had a lighter another 1 minute to start a fire in those conditions with the leaf litter. And for the targeted burning of her hands feet and head maybe 5 minutes, using materials from the site to do It. Total 15 minutes. After mentally going through that it does seem that 15 would be shortest time, not 10. But 30 minutes is WAY more than enough.

 

[Kickoff61]

This is a shocking crime that has made the local residents feel assaulted themselves. This is the reason I feel so many tips have been phoned in to the tipline. Folks are desperately trying to help find a killer.

There is absolutely no evidence that VM had a secret lover.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Perp had a gun. If he held a gun on her, then he intended to use it. Agree with FM on that issue.

It is difficult to reconcile the timeline with an hour spent with VM at the CS in the woods. I agree the killer is possibly a sexual sadist but an entire hour spent with a dying or dead body is very long time when considering the location. Therefore, I disagree with Rocky on that issue. If it turns out that the killer was a Satanic worshipper who performed some sort of ritual act at the CS then, that would be a different situation.

Given that running in Princeton was something VM did twice monthly, only on Sunday afternoons places her in a routine fairly easy for a predator who knows this information to find a point of least resistance. I do not believe this was happenstance due to the odds of her twice monthly runs just happening to coincide with a fellow scouting for a rape victim who happens to be driving along BSR as VM leaves her mom's long driveway. It certainly could happen due to the shockingly high number of SOs in the immediate area.

There is no evidence of any other CS.

Stuffing clothing items into her mouth would keep her screams muffled. This is a very bad guy.

The COD has not been released. I expect to be shocked when it is revealed.

For months, I've thought the Find My app was used by her relatives to learn the last ping was at 2:25. Now, I discover that is pure speculation. We do not know what type phone VM possessed or if LEO has located her phone. Speculating what the killer may have done with her phone is purely speculation. And all of this speculation has my head spinning.

Yes the speculation has gone wild and can make the head spin. I did my best to speculate based on facts known and the crime scene photos and made list of facts earlier on where my speculation came from. But, there is too little released in this case to be certain about anything. We do not know the evidence they have or even cause of death , correct. I couldn't agree with you more.

 

[ForensicMass]

There is no evidence the vehicle was there the entire time either and was not used to come back to the scene to do the fire or bring her there either way. (part time). (if involved at all). But, he would not want fire evidence on his property. and you keep ignoring the issue of driving with a dead body in the vehicle on a hot summer day. Evidence increasing. You are interested in forensics , clearly. So this should be interesting right?

I am
Not ignoring the dead body in car- I stated that if a car was used to transport her there, I can show you on a map 5 other MORE SECLUDED places to take her that are THE SAME DISTANCE AWAY (relative, within a couple of minutes) FROM her route. And if your guy lives on the route and knows the path then he knows these places too.

And what does the temperature of the day have to do with it ? Most cars have air-conditioning and unless we are talking about leaving the body in a parked car for an extended period of time external temperature of the vehicle is really not an issue

From a forensics standpoint if the body is in the car at all there will be evidence. Difference in the Amount of evidence transfer from a dead body in the trunk for five minutes versus 10 or 15 minutes is negligible most of the transfer happens when the body is placed in and removed from the trunk.

 

[Rocky1]

My girlfriend is 110 pounds. I'm 190. Not to get graphic, but I'll give you my personal two cents. First, we agree that she was dead before the firewood gathering, So let's add that in- it can take approximately 4 minutes to strangle someone to death. Less than that to lose consciousness, but we know he took it further than that. So, that being said,
I am willing to say that I could accomplish all of this, even assuming she WAS fighting. - capturing my gf, restraining her, dragging her 130 feet down a path, easily stepping over a couple downed logs would take me no more than 2-3 minutes. Strangulation an additional 4 minutes. Gathering wood 1 minute maybe 2. there is a ton of it there, and it was all bone dry. If I had a lighter another 1 minute to start a fire in those conditions with the leaf litter. And for the targeted burning of her hands feet and head maybe 5 minutes, using materials from the site to do It. Total 15 minutes. After mentally going through that it does seem that 15 would be shortest time, not 10. But 30 minutes is WAY more than enough.

Ok, you didn't add the time it takes for the fire get going . Do you think she was sexually assaulted ? and if so that means she had to be alive fighting while he removed her clothing, how long for that?

 

[Kickoff61]

There is no cause of death known.
There is no secret relationship known.
There is no proof of primary or secondary crime scene.
There is no proof of how long the vehicle was at this path, if it is the perpetrator's vehicle and part of the crime.
There is nothing known regarding what exactly happened to her clothes, phone, ear buds, shoes. (except possibly one report being true that one shoe may have been found).
There is no proof a torch was involved at all and nothing known as to what started the fire.
There is no proof what LE Found on the market camera footage.
There is a time frame of 1 - 3 , but not specific time of death in that time frame.
There is no knowledge of what the 1,000 tips were, to know if there weren't others on the route of her running besides BSR
There is no proof of age of this perpetrator.
There is no proof of his possible criminal history that could have gone undetected.
We do not know how the phone was pinged at the restaurant.

We know very little. Photos of scene where she was found. She died of a reported homicide, reported by LE. She was burned. Reports of a dark SUV was parked along BSR.

 

[ForensicMass]

This is a shocking crime that has made the local residents feel assaulted themselves. This is the reason I feel so many tips have been phoned in to the tipline. Folks are desperately trying to help find a killer.

There is absolutely no evidence that VM had a secret lover.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Perp had a gun. If he held a gun on her, then he intended to use it. Agree with FM on that issue.

It is difficult to reconcile the timeline with an hour spent with VM at the CS in the woods. I agree the killer is possibly a sexual sadist but an entire hour spent with a dying or dead body is very long time when considering the location. Therefore, I disagree with Rocky on that issue. If it turns out that the killer was a Satanic worshipper who performed some sort of ritual act at the CS then, that would be a different situation.

Given that running in Princeton was something VM did twice monthly, only on Sunday afternoons places her in a routine fairly easy for a predator who knows this information to find a point of least resistance. I do not believe this was happenstance due to the odds of her twice monthly runs just happening to coincide with a fellow scouting for a rape victim who happens to be driving along BSR as VM leaves her mom's long driveway. It certainly could happen due to the shockingly high number of SOs in the immediate area.

There is no evidence of any other CS.

Stuffing clothing items into her mouth would keep her screams muffled. This is a very bad guy.

The COD has not been released. I expect to be shocked when it is revealed.

For months, I've thought the Find My app was used by her relatives to learn the last ping was at 2:25. Now, I discover that is pure speculation. We do not know what type phone VM possessed or if LEO has located her phone. Speculating what the killer may have done with her phone is purely speculation. And all of this speculation has my head spinning.

This is a TOP POST. nicely done.
Regarding the find my phone app,
The neighbor initially reported that the aunt said around 4pm that Vanessa's phone pinged near the mountain barn at 2:25.

whether the application was "find my iphone" or some other smart phone location app under a different name, they all work on the same general technology. and this technology makes immediate determination of the phones last known (powered on) location possible. Cell phone tower triangulation is not that immediate and therefore an Application such as find my iPhone would be the only way this information could be available to her aunt at 4 PM.

 

[Kickoff61]

No-one knows if he had matches on him or had to get some.

 

[ForensicMass]

Ok, you didn't add the time it takes for the fire get going . Do you think she was sexually assaulted ? and if so that means she had to be alive fighting while he removed her clothing, how long for that?

I lean toward no sexual assault occurring even though I'm sure he intended it. I lean this way because there is no reason to try to cover up DNA on the hands if you have committed a rape. that is yet another reason why I do not believe he was that clever, that smart, or that experienced, or that he was hanging around there with her for a long time because he wasn't even able to accomplish his initial goal.

 

[Kickoff61]

I lean toward no sexual assault occurring even though I'm sure he intended it. I lean this way because there is no reason to try to cover up DNA on the hands if you have committed a rape. that is yet another reason why I do not believe he was that clever, that smart, or that experienced, or that he was hanging around there with her for a long time because he wasn't even able to accomplish his initial goal.

If she used her hands to leave wounds on him that LE suspect he had, that would explain DNA on her hands.

 

[ForensicMass]

No-one knows if he had matches on him or had to get some.

POLL QUESTION..........
How many people here have a lighter or matches in their cars? I don't smoke. Never have, not even one cigarette. But I have a lighter in my car. It's a critical survival tool.

 

[ForensicMass]

If she used her hands to leave wounds on him that LE suspect he had, that would explain DNA on her hands.

Right. I understand that, and I'm sure there was DNA on her hands. But if she was raped, there was LOTS of DNA elsewhere, making targeted burning of the hands and feet a moot point.

 

[Rocky1]

I lean toward no sexual assault occurring even though I'm sure he intended it. I lean this way because there is no reason to try to cover up DNA on the hands if you have committed a rape. that is yet another reason why I do not believe he was that clever, that smart, or that experienced, or that he was hanging around there with her for a long time because he wasn't even able to accomplish his initial goal.

Ok but you agree she was alive when he removed her clothing, and that it wasn't all that easy, because she was fighting. 5 minutes? another 10 for the fire to grow big enough?
My point is we are already beyond 30 minutes, and this is what I think without tyring to be too graphic.
I think he's a sexual sadist, and those types love to inflict pain and suffering, so I think it was a lot longer that the 4 minutes it would normally take to strangle someone, so IMO an hour isn't out of the question.
True, if he wanted to take his time, his basement would have been a better place, but his basement wasn't on her route.

 

[Rocky1]

I'd agree with 30 minutes if his motive was just murder, but when LE started checking all the registered sex offenders in the area, along with the burning, Sexual Sadist came to mind.

 

[ForensicMass]

Ok but you agree she was alive when he removed her clothing, and that it wasn't all that easy, because she was fighting. 5 minutes? another 10 for the fire to grow big enough?
My point is we are already beyond 30 minutes, and this is what I think without tyring to be too graphic.
I think he's a sexual sadist, and those types love to inflict pain and suffering, so I think it was a lot longer that the 4 minutes it would normally take to strangle someone, so IMO an hour isn't out of the question.
True, if he wanted to take his time, his basement would have been a better place, but his basement wasn't on her route.

No I do not agree that she was alive when he removed her clothing. Is there evidence to support that? In those conditions, you could have a 3 x 3 fire in only a couple of minutes. Big pile of leaves smaller twigs and kindling igniting multiple areas of the leaves with the lighter.

I should clarify that I do not think it's impossible that he removed her clothing while she was alive but for reasons you just described it certainly would have been easier to do so after struggling with her and strangling her. If she was sexually assaulted then I would agree that her clothing was removed before she was killed.

 

[Rocky1]

.

No I do not agree that she was alive when he removed her clothing. Is there evidence to support that? In those conditions, you could have a 3 x 3 fire in only a couple of minutes. Big pile of leaves smaller twigs and kindling igniting multiple areas of the leaves with the lighter.

Do you think he tried to sexually assault her with her clothes on?
Again, I am trying to make your theory fit, There isn't evidence about much really. I doubt he had leaves to use. even if he did, I see lots of smoke.

 

[ForensicMass]

Do you think he tried to sexually assault her with her clothes on?
Again, I am trying to make your theory fit, There isn't evidence about much really.

My theory fits without those Absurdities. lol. obviously he did not intend to assault her with her clothes on.

I think he realized that sexually assaulting someone who was not complicit was much more difficult than he anticipated. The Only way to subdue her completely was to strangle her until she quit resisting, and when doing so killed her the plan to sexually assault her was altered beyond reconciliation. So he did what he could to cover his tracks and then got out of there. That's my theory. No clothed-assaults.

 

[Rocky1]

My theory fits without those Absurdities. lol. obviously he did not intend to assault her with her clothes on.

I think he realized that sexually assaulting someone who was not complicit was much more difficult than he anticipated. The Only way to subdue her completely was to strangle her until she quit resisting, and when doing so killed her the plan to sexually assault her was altered beyond reconciliation. So he did what he could to cover his tracks and then got out of there. That's my theory. No clothed-assaults.

Ok And of course there is no evidence that she was strangled either.
Just a hypothetical question. Do you think maybe she could have been sexually assaulted, and that he planned on sexually assaulting her, and brought a condom, thinking that he didn't leave any DNA?

 

[ForensicMass]

Ok And of course there is no evidence that she was strangled either.
Just a hypothetical question. Do you think maybe she could have been sexually assaulted, and that he planned on sexually assaulting her, and brought a condom, thinking that he didn't leave any DNA?

That's not a bad question but if he tried to burn her hands and feet he seems to have a fairly solid understanding of DNA and how it can be transferred quite easily, so I would think he would understand there could have been transfer elsewhere even if using protection. Plus here would be a lot of body contact elsewhere, too, in that event.

 

[Rocky1]

That's not a bad question but if he tried to burn her hands and feet he seems to have a fairly solid understanding of DNA and how it can be transferred quite easily, so I would think he would understand there could have been transfer elsewhere even if using protection. Plus here would be a lot of body contact elsewhere, too, in that event.

Right, but he couldn't have had too much of an understanding thinking what he did was going to get rid of the DNA just burning what he did.That is unless he thought those woods were going up, and the only reason just her hands feet and head were burned was because the fire went out.

 

[ForensicMass]

Right, but he couldn't have had too much of an understanding thinking what he did was going to get rid of the DNA just burning what he did.That is unless he thought those woods were going up, and the only reason just her hands feet and head were burned was because the fire went out.

That's possible. The main issue I have with that theory is not the same as the other folks on here. If I recall correctly people in general have just been of the opinion that the perp did not want the whole forest catching on fire. I won't say that's true. I don't know what this person wanted. but from an outdoorsman and former Boy Scout's perspective, my biggest problem is how easily he could have started an enormous fire in there if he wanted, under the specific conditions that existed at that time. We are talking about conditions where a discarded lit cigarette could very well catch the whole plot on fire. If this guy had a means to start a fire and he wanted the whole woods to go up all he would have to do is bounce around and light a couple different areas . Brings me to the last point- The one who wanted that whole wooded plot to go up in flames would have ignited more than just one small area where the body was.

Also. How reasonable wouldn't have been for him to assume a big fire wouldn't get called in immediately. Then they would have found her at 4pm. Perhaps. After responding to the brush fire- fire station is minutes from this location.