Members' Theories

[BBB167893]

Hmm, you have a very interesting way of posing opposing thoughts then denying having made them as suggestions.

If I said. It's a lovely day today. You might say, well I don't know about that, they are saying it could rain. I might then tell someone, SD says it could rain. You would then say, I never said that I was just replying to your general statement, I didn't imply that it could rain.

If you aren't prepared to 'own' the things you say, why bother to say them in the first place?

All right, you've made your point. I'm sorry I mentioned it.

Right then, lets get back to what I was trying to say two days ago.

LHP said: "I remember just such a cord wrapped in just such a way around a box in the basement next to where her body was found."

Now, there are only two options: it either was this cord that was used OR LHP is lying.

Which is it?

Which indeed? Of course, if she's telling the truth, that presents a problem: why would an intruder look around for something to use as a weapon in the house instead of bringing one UNLESS they were familiar with the layout and already knew it was there.

If she's lying, we have to ask why. Revenge? Also, lying means she knows it's not true. She may genuninely believe it, even if it's not true. She had a while to convince herself of these things. Of course, the same applies to the Rs, but let's not get into that right now.

It's a tough one.

 

[MurriFlower]

All right, you've made your point. I'm sorry I mentioned it.

Apology accepted.

Which indeed? Of course, if she's telling the truth, that presents a problem: why would an intruder look around for something to use as a weapon in the house instead of bringing one UNLESS they were familiar with the layout and already knew it was there.

If she's lying, we have to ask why. Revenge? Also, lying means she knows it's not true. She may genuninely believe it, even if it's not true. She had a while to convince herself of these things. Of course, the same applies to the Rs, but let's not get into that right now. It's a tough one.

Well, if I had to guess I'd say she's lying.

But of course, the question is why? Revenge sounds like a good motive. Drop good old PR in it. Afterall, they said LHP was a likely suspect, so good idea to get them back.

Hmmm. Perhaps. But if you read the rest of chapter 1 of this 'unpublished book' you'll find lots of other interesting information.

LHP was very familiar with PR's handwriting and style from the dozens of notes she left her about cleaning jobs.

"One of the ways in which Patsy Ramsey would communicate with me was through handwritten notes, which she would leave for me with instructions for various duties around the house that needed my attention.

In the fourteen month period that I worked for the Ramseys, I was left several dozen handwritten notes by Patsy Ramsey. I am quite familiar with her handwriting, and I believe I can recognize it with very little difficulty.

I told the grand jury that since leaving the employ of the Ramseys, I had had occasion to see a copy of the ransom note found at the scene of JonBenet Ramsey's murder. It was heartbreaking for me to admit that the handwriting in the ransom note looked very much like the handwriting Patsy Ramsey used in writing her notes to me. "

What would Freud make of "In fact, I am one of only three people who knows the answer to the terrible question: "Who killed JonBenet Ramsey?". Of course, LHP names JR & PR as the other two, but....... also "And yet I know who killed JonBenet Ramsey, just as surely as if I had been there in that dark, awful wine cellar with her and witnessed her murder." Who says things like that, unless......

Then the bit about PR asking for 'marital advice' - sure, sure!! All this tells us is that LHP has a 'vivid imagination' regarding sexual issues.

Then there's the husband "Your house was a 22-room rabbit warren and maze that even my husband once got lost in when he was doing some work for you."

There are other reasons but this question of lying about the cord around the box in the cellar, is central to why I still have LHP & Co as my No1 suspects. There can be only one reason she would 'invent' the box with cord and that is because she felt the need to explain where it came from and how it found it's way around JBRs neck and wrists.

The guilty always incriminate themselves when they try to blame others.

 

[BBB167893]

Apology accepted.

No problem.

Well, if I had to guess I'd say she's lying.

I figured.

But of course, the question is why? Revenge sounds like a good motive. Drop good old PR in it. Afterall, they said LHP was a likely suspect, so good idea to get them back.

That's possible. But then, maybe that was why they mentioned her to begin with. Anything she said afterward could be written off as sour grapes. Just Spitballing.

LHP was very familiar with PR's handwriting and style from the dozens of notes she left her about cleaning jobs.

"One of the ways in which Patsy Ramsey would communicate with me was through handwritten notes, which she would leave for me with instructions for various duties around the house that needed my attention.

In the fourteen month period that I worked for the Ramseys, I was left several dozen handwritten notes by Patsy Ramsey. I am quite familiar with her handwriting, and I believe I can recognize it with very little difficulty.

I told the grand jury that since leaving the employ of the Ramseys, I had had occasion to see a copy of the ransom note found at the scene of JonBenet Ramsey's murder. It was heartbreaking for me to admit that the handwriting in the ransom note looked very much like the handwriting Patsy Ramsey used in writing her notes to me. "

Mm-hmm. I just took that a different way, is all.

What would Freud make of "In fact, I am one of only three people who knows the answer to the terrible question: "Who killed JonBenet Ramsey?".

I don't know what Freud would make of it. I don't hold him in high regard.

Of course, LHP names JR & PR as the other two, but....... also "And yet I know who killed JonBenet Ramsey, just as surely as if I had been there in that dark, awful wine cellar with her and witnessed her murder." Who says things like that, unless......

I think you're stretching. To me, it's a question of LHP going for emphasis. Either that, or the chapter was ghost-written.

Then the bit about PR asking for 'marital advice' - sure, sure!! All this tells us is that LHP has a 'vivid imagination' regarding sexual issues.

Yeah, I'd just as soon she left that stuff out.

Then there's the husband "Your house was a 22-room rabbit warren and maze that even my husband once got lost in when he was doing some work for you."

That one I can't get too enamored with. It just proves that the killer had to know the layout.

There are other reasons but this question of lying about the cord around the box in the cellar, is central to why I still have LHP & Co as my No1 suspects. There can be only one reason she would 'invent' the box with cord and that is because she felt the need to explain where it came from and how it found it's way around JBRs neck and wrists.

Interesting idea.

The guilty always incriminate themselves when they try to blame others.

I couldn't agree more!

 

[DeeDee249]

Lets leave the golf bag out of this for the moment and stick with the cord.

No, you are absolutely right DD, you never said it was tied around the box.

LHP said this in her 'unpublished book' "I remember just such a cord wrapped in just such a way around a box in the basement next to where her body was found." Now, back to where I began with this. Either LHP is lying about the cord being around the box OR that exact same cord was used to kill JBR. Which is it??

Who knows? Only LHP can answer that. She certainly went to the basement many times. She regularly laundered JB's bedding, which didn't fit in the small washer outside JB's bedroom, in the larger machines in the basement. She was in that wineceller just before the Holidays, bringing up Christmas decorations. If there WAS such a box in there, she may have noticed it.

 

[DeeDee249]

But I think it was destroyed before touch DNA testing existed.

I think you are correct. One thing I don't understand is why the entire cord had to be destroyed. Exactly what are those methods of testing and why are they so destructive? I mean, this is STILL an unsolved murder. And the garrote is a prime piece of evidence. Seems a bit imprudent to destroy it, because now- we have the TOUCH DNA method and it would have been invaluable to be able to test that knot (which may have been difficult to tie wearing gloves).

 

[MurriFlower]

Who knows? Only LHP can answer that. She certainly went to the basement many times. She regularly laundered JB's bedding, which didn't fit in the small washer outside JB's bedroom, in the larger machines in the basement. She was in that wineceller just before the Holidays, bringing up Christmas decorations. If there WAS such a box in there, she may have noticed it.

PLEASE don't dismiss this with a Who knows? This is important. The cord is the murder weapon in case you have forgotten. It is critical in trying to establish who murdered JBR.

IF she lied about the cord then we need to examine the reason, ie was she involved?

If she was telling the truth, then the cord would have no longer been around the box and would instead have been around JBR. It would be obvious that it was the same cord, as it would have had creases from being previously tied, perhaps even redundant knots. If it was the same cord, then where is the rest of the spool?

 

[DeeDee249]

PLEASE don't dismiss this with a Who knows? This is important. The cord is the murder weapon in case you have forgotten. It is critical in trying to establish who murdered JBR.

IF she lied about the cord then we need to examine the reason, ie was she involved?

If she was telling the truth, then the cord would have no longer been around the box and would instead have been around JBR. It would be obvious that it was the same cord, as it would have had creases from being previously tied, perhaps even redundant knots. If it was the same cord, then where is the rest of the spool?

I don't know what you expect me to say. I have no idea whether LHP is lying or not. And I am pretty sure you don't know either. With the cord gone now, and the wineceller gone now, too, there really is no way to prove LHP's statements. At this point, even a polygraph might not give an answer, and frankly, unless she is under no obligation to submit to one.
There is of course, the possibility that she IS lying. It's an odd thing to lie about seeing the cord and box, though. Cord is a common thing to have around a house and she didn't have to mention seeing it around a box in the basement. She could simply have said she recalled seeing cord like that around the house. She had intimate knowledge of the house, so no one would dispute that.
Why would she lie? Well, one reason, as you point out, would be if she was involved. Another reason is that she was so angry and upset at being implicated by the Rs that she lied to get revenge. When first questioned, she said Patsy could never have done this. As the investigation unfolded, she began to say that it couldn't have been anyone BUT Patsy.
Interesting point- Patsy claimed that the RN's handwriting reminded her of LHP's, and LHP said the same thing about Patsy. LHP had seen Patsy's handwriting many times, as Patsy always left her notes about what she wanted done in the house.

 

[MurriFlower]

I don't know what you expect me to say. I have no idea whether LHP is lying or not. And I am pretty sure you don't know either. With the cord gone now, and the wineceller gone now, too, there really is no way to prove LHP's statements. At this point, even a polygraph might not give an answer, and frankly, unless she is under no obligation to submit to one.
There is of course, the possibility that she IS lying. It's an odd thing to lie about seeing the cord and box, though. Cord is a common thing to have around a house and she didn't have to mention seeing it around a box in the basement. She could simply have said she recalled seeing cord like that around the house. She had intimate knowledge of the house, so no one would dispute that.
Why would she lie? Well, one reason, as you point out, would be if she was involved. Another reason is that she was so angry and upset at being implicated by the Rs that she lied to get revenge. When first questioned, she said Patsy could never have done this. As the investigation unfolded, she began to say that it couldn't have been anyone BUT Patsy.
Interesting point- Patsy claimed that the RN's handwriting reminded her of LHP's, and LHP said the same thing about Patsy. LHP had seen Patsy's handwriting many times, as Patsy always left her notes about what she wanted done in the house.

Yes, yes, yes. This is what I was hoping you would say. It appears that by trying to accuse PR she has revealed more than she needed to and it implicates her. The cord. The handwriting. The pocketknife.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes, yes, yes. This is what I was hoping you would say. It appears that by trying to accuse PR she has revealed more than she needed to and it implicates her. The cord. The handwriting. The pocketknife.

BUT there was no evidence of any kind linking LHP to that body, or that crime scene. Why aren't LHP's fibers there? She was by all accounts a much larger woman than Patsy, so it's not like the jacket would fit her.
For it to be LHP, there would have to be a motive, because I can't imagine what would provoke the head bash. If her motive was to kidnap her for ransom, I can't imagine she actually intended to kill JB. And JB could say who had kidnapped her. I mean, LHP had a daughter herself. She wouldn't risk getting nabbed for kidnapping.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Evidence shows JonBenet's injuries are vicious and came before death -- not as part of an act of "staging" afterward. The violence seems beyond the capability of even an enraged parent. "This is a brutal murder -- this is not a kid knocked out and her death staged."

Struggling to escape: Fingernail marks on JonBenet's neck indicate she was trying to get the ligature off her neck, contrary to one police theory that she was unconscious. "She is not knocked out, she is not near death, she is fighting to stay alive," Smit said.

Depth of ligature mark: Autopsy photos show the ligature was tightened deeply into her neck. "That was brutally, forcibly, deeply dug into the furrows of her neck. This was not an easy strangulation. This was a brutal strangulation."

Redness of ligature marks: Redness indicates injuries came before death -- not after as part of staging. "If you try to put a rope around a kid's neck after she's dead, you're not going to get a red mark like that at all, you're going to get a white mark." Other abrasions on her shoulders and leg also left reddish marks. "That means she was alive and struggling, she was not dead. This is not staging."

The photograph of Joni's neck, after she was strangled, shows it bulging around the ligature. This evidence reveals clearly, too clearly, the brutality of the man who killed this little girl. He was a sick, degenerate, violent animal.

 

[Tadpole12]

Hi MF.

What I found odd about LHP's first chapter was the reinteration, the triple talk. An odd style to adopt, reminiscent of the rn.

 

[WHITEFANG]

It was heartbreaking for me to admit that the handwriting in the ransom note looked very much like the handwriting Patsy Ramsey used in writing her notes to me.

This statement is more than tongue in cheek. She was thrilled to tell the GJ. Surely, she relished the opportunity to disclose way too much private information about the couple in her book or whatever it is called. Her raw, explicit terminology is suggestive of her own potential vulnerability to the darker side of human relations, IMO.

It is an odd bit of detail to remember, too, the cord, that is. She was able to recall she had seen the same cord wrapped around a package that she could ID it as the same one on Joni's neck? I wouldn't notice the cord, the package, the room or what day it was. But, that's me.

This woman almost presents as vindictive, jealous, more than willing to lie, flavored with a large dose of self-promotion, at least I get that impression, a very premature hunch or sense, w/o knowing enough about her to be certain, at all. Also, do I intuit a wish to be caught?

This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else!

 

[WHITEFANG]

August 31: Patsy Ramsey issues bold challenge to Boulder prosecutor: “If you think I did it, let's have a trial and get it over with.”

2002:
December 20: New District Attorney Mary Keenan takes over investigation and promises a "fresh look" into the case.

2003:
March 31: A federal judge in Atlanta concludes that the weight of the evidence is more consistent with the intruder theory than with the theory that Patsy Ramsey killed JonBenet.

April 7: Keenan issues a statement agreeing with the federal judge.

June 1: Retired detective Tom Bennett is hired by the Boulder district attorney's office to lead a new investigation.

2004:
June 4: The Ramseys' attorney says DNA found in JonBenet's underwear did not match any samples in an FBI database of convicted violent offenders.

2005:
March 26: DNA evidence conclusively ruled out JonBenet’s parents as suspects.

August 29: Former Telluride marshal Jim Kolar is named the Boulder County district attorney's lead investigator in the case.

2006:
June 24: Patsy Ramsey dies at age 49 of ovarian cancer.

 

[MurriFlower]

This statement is more than tongue in cheek. She was thrilled to tell the GJ. Surely, she relished the opportunity to disclose way too much private information about the couple in her book or whatever it is called. Her raw, explicit terminology is suggestive of her own potential vulnerability to the darker side of human relations, IMO.

Yeah, it's a funny thing about people who work in other people's homes. They loooove to snoop!! Especially if they are left there while the owners are away and they have unlimited opportunities. They just can't help themselves and a favourite thing to snoop into, aside from their finances, is their sex lives. Next to housekeepers, house painters are the nosiest.

It is an odd bit of detail to remember, too, the cord, that is. She was able to recall she had seen the same cord wrapped around a package that she could ID it as the same one on Joni's neck? I wouldn't notice the cord, the package, the room or what day it was. But, that's me.

It struck me like that too. But of course I had forgotten, it is 'the murder weapon'. Now if I'm correct and one of the IDI was well acquainted with the household, they would follow the case closely, always worried that a 'knock' would come on the door and they would have been discovered. The investigation goes on and after a time it appears the main suspects are the R's themselves. So, when the murder weapon isn't found in the home, the Cops are going to start asking people who were regularly in the house if they saw such a cord. An obliging housekeeper, who is eager to jump on the bandwagon of blaming the Rs (especially as they had named her as a suspect) and also be seen to be helping the BPD, might just 'remember' a cord tied around a box in the same room JBR was killed.

This woman almost presents as vindictive, jealous, more than willing to lie, flavored with a large dose of self-promotion, at least I get that impression, a very premature hunch or sense, w/o knowing enough about her to be certain, at all. Also, do I intuit a wish to be caught?

In everything that is reported in print and in the videos available she comes across like that. It's like she's got a big chip on her shoulder. The Rs must have seemed to her to have it all, money, beautiful children, a lovely home, holiday home, Patsy was a former beauty queen and still an attractive woman. BUT, when you knew them closely you came to realise they were careless, wasteful, children undisciplined and rude, not generous employers. PR while a 'nice' enough person, not very tidy and idle, leaving mess for LHP to clean up, fancying herself as an artist, barely able to cope with the household without help. While LHP herself raised (was it 6) children, all the time working to support the family.

Yeah, she's a definate possibility. Pity we don't have more information.

 

[WHITEFANG]

The ease with which she graphically depicts the Ramsey's problems with "intimacy" hints at her own, personal demons in this regard, IMO.

What is known about this woman in terms of her whereabouts that night? Anything?

 

[Tadpole12]

Hi WF.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-linda-hoffmann-pugh.htm

Alibi:
12-25-1996
Linda slept upstairs bedroom

 

[WHITEFANG]

Linda Hoffman - Housekeeper - "When I cleaned that house, I cleaned that basement many times and I didn't even know that room was there - It tells me somebody had to know that house."

Yet she recalled seeing the cord on the package in that room (she didn't know was there) later found on Joni's neck?

 

[WHITEFANG]

I was supposed to come back the next day, December 24, and clean up. I called Patsy and said I couldn't. I told her I had a fight with my sister and needed some money to pay the rent. I asked Patsy for a $2,000 loan. I told her I would pay it back $50 each week. She didn't hesitate. "Sure." Said she'd leave it for me on the kitchen counter for my next regular visit on December 27. Evenings were for the family.

They did homework and had dinner together. Patsy worked on school projects with the kids. She was always doing something for the children on her computer. She read to them at bedtime... Never even set the alarm. She didn't like it, because it went off accidently and it drove the police crazy.

Pretty bold of her to ask for a 2 G loan, IMO. Intruder didn't have to worry about triggering an alarm.

This dedicated mother, within hours, would not only murder her child, she would stage the murder scene by strangling the love of her life, leaving her with deep neck wounds, compose a RN describing how Joni would be decapitated, all in order to deceive authorities about her own guilt. For the rest of her life she would adamantly insist she was innocent.

"The more I think about it, JonBenet could not have been killed by a stranger. I didn't even know THAT ROOM was there. How could a stranger know to go there? How in the world did this happen?" LHP

Patsy did not hesitate to loan her $2,000.

(Just wondering out loud. Would LHP necessarily wait until the 27th to pick up the money? The R's would be in Michigan the morning of the 26th. Pat would have to leave the cash for her before they left early Thursday morning to make sure she got it. Perhaps it would be available Christmas night? No armed alarm system to turn off. "Why not check?")

Searching for but not finding it, Joni appears unexpectedly in the kitchen, demanding a snack. She feeds the spoiled brat a little pineapple, who doesn't even thank her. Getting on her nerves, LHP realizes, "What if she tells Pat I was here?"

 

[BBB167893]

The photograph of Joni's neck, after she was strangled, shows it bulging around the ligature. This evidence reveals clearly, too clearly, the brutality of the man who killed this little girl. He was a sick, degenerate, violent animal.

Or it indicates post-mortem swelling.

 

[BBB167893]

This statement is more than tongue in cheek. She was thrilled to tell the GJ.

Given my own experiences, I have my doubts about that.