Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #13

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SMK said:
Yes, there was a mushroom in her esophegus. I would have to go back and review the research, but it amounted to if they finished dinner at 6, the contents would be past the deudemon at such and such a time......oh, it was clear to me at one time.....the end result was, TOD would be closer to 9:30-10 PM.
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This is not true, SMK.

It was a piece of apple from her dessert with her friends earlier. her friends said they did NOT have anything with mushrooms in it. And if it so happened to be a mushroom, where did it come from? What evidence at the cottage showed that after she got home from dinner, she suddenly decided she just wanted to eat one mushroom? Where are the other mushrooms it came with?

I read a report that it was a piece of apple from her dessert that hadn't gone down yet, proving how closely she'd eaten to the time that she died. I also read they hadn't even preserved the piece, which is why I don't think those people can investigate properly the contents of an empty paper bag.

I'd once read that RS was attributed with chopping up the mushrooms. I guess he decided to shove just one down her throat and somehow dispose of all the other mushrooms, but leave his "supposed" footprint on a bathmat, which is just another absurd claim that the prosecution made about the print. we all know and RG knows, that was his foot on that bathmat.
 
SkewedView said:
You should hear my wife and I trying to sequence the events of one of our days, it's like a badly written comedy! :crazy:

That said, I can understand your argument, however, didn't the pair of them spend most of their waking hours those four days at the police station (mostly waiting around from my understanding, but nevertheless)? If this is in fact true, that would seem to preclude them having the time or energy to fact check their recollection of things, especially given that the police had yet to inform them that they were suspects (and if you're not a suspect, why worry about whether the times of your alibi are accurate, right?). All of the above is based on my, at the moment, imperfect recollection of the time line of events during that week, so please correct me if I am mistaken.
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In truth, we do not know whether they "Changed their stories in the exact manner" or on the "exact same details" or not. We know that they changed their stories one night, Nov 5th. RS said he was at home and AK left and didn't return till one am. AK said she heard MK screaming in a room with PL.

After that, the two were right back to saying they were together the whole night. We do not know much at all about what RS said. Do we have his taped interview? Do we have his testimony? do we have any written declaration from him regarding what he stated?

How do we know he deviated in the same manner as AK?

I completely agree with you that two people who even are together all the time can recollect things completely differently. Had the "experts" not fried 75% of the alibi evidence, we might better know RS's alibi.
 
otto said:
It's been claimed that Amanda was questioned by police for 54 hours. That might even come up in this next trial since it's about Amanda's claims during that questioning period. Meredith was murdered on Nov 1, and many people were asked to go to the police station on Nov 2. I believe that Amanda was interviewed late in the evening and asked to come back the following day. On Nov 6, at 1:45 AM, they were arrested.

I might make mistakes, so correct me if I do ... but that isn't possible by a long stretch:

Waking hours: from noon Nov 2 to 1 AM Nov 6 = 85 hours

Claimed witness questioning: 54 hours

Remaining hours: 31 hours

Time to sleep: 7 hours per night times 3 = 21 hours

Time to eat: 11 meals at say 30 minutes = 6.5 hours

Time on the phone, shower, toilette: 3-6 hours = 3

That accounts for the other 31 hours. If she was questioned for 54 hours in that time period, how did she have time to go lingerie shopping, have sex, visit with Raffaele's friends, send emails, talk with Perugia instructors, figure out the rent situation, contact the University, so on?
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I heard questioning was only 44 or so hours, so that gives you 10 hours to shop and go to class and send emails and work out your house situation.
 
If Amanda fails in her appeals, which is possible given the abundance of evidence, I wonder if she would request a transfer to the US or Germany ... or if she would be perfectly happy to continue playing up the medievil backwards angle and stay in Italy. She is looking at 15 years no matter what. Are the Donald Trumps of the world going to wait or will a real case surface in the meantime... leaving Knox with a small audience? The mobs are fickle ... will the desperate novelists still be perched for a story in 15 or 30 years?
 
Yes, on page 20 of his appeal, RS is definitely contending that the three hard drives were intentionally fried.

He also contends that there was no mention at trial of him opening the cartoon on his computer at 926pm.

He additionally asserts that the computers all must be re-examined since the postal police saved over files giving them new open times. Instead, the PP should have copied his hard drive before going through it. but they bungled that and essentially altered, even if "accidentally" the original opening times and dates on some files.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/46866334/Apeal-Raffaele-English
 
What happened to the prosecution having to prove its case with a preponderance of the evidence?
:countsheep:
 
wasnt_me said:
What happened to the prosecution having to prove its case with a preponderance of the evidence?
:countsheep:
Click to expand...

There lies the difference between theory and practice...it's hard for any system to adapt to the general ignorance and myopia of the average human...
 
wasnt_me said:
In truth, we do not know whether they "Changed their stories in the exact manner" or on the "exact same details" or not. We know that they changed their stories one night, Nov 5th. RS said he was at home and AK left and didn't return till one am. AK said she heard MK screaming in a room with PL.

After that, the two were right back to saying they were together the whole night. We do not know much at all about what RS said. Do we have his taped interview? Do we have his testimony? do we have any written declaration from him regarding what he stated?

How do we know he deviated in the same manner as AK?

I completely agree with you that two people who even are together all the time can recollect things completely differently. Had the "experts" not fried 75% of the alibi evidence, we might better know RS's alibi.
Click to expand...

I don't know what otto was talking about when he claimed they "changed their stories in the same way." But I am sure they were both being fed disinformation by their interrogators and finally just agreed with what was being said to them. If there was agreement in the changed statements, it was because LE had already decided on the only story they would accept.
 
wasnt_me said:
Yes, on page 20 of his appeal, RS is definitely contending that the three hard drives were intentionally fried.

He also contends that there was no mention at trial of him opening the cartoon on his computer at 926pm.

He additionally asserts that the computers all must be re-examined since the postal police saved over files giving them new open times. Instead, the PP should have copied his hard drive before going through it. but they bungled that and essentially altered, even if "accidentally" the original opening times and dates on some files.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/46866334/Apeal-Raffaele-English
Click to expand...

So we don't know what time the computers were used and the 9:10 P.M. time that has been repeated several times of late is just more piece of misleading testimony from ILE.
 
wasnt_me said:
What happened to the prosecution having to prove its case with a preponderance of the evidence?
:countsheep:
Click to expand...

Is it preponderance in Italy or reasonable doubt? I've seen both claimed in posts here.
 
wasnt_me said:
This is not true, SMK.

It was a piece of apple from her dessert with her friends earlier. her friends said they did NOT have anything with mushrooms in it. And if it so happened to be a mushroom, where did it come from? What evidence at the cottage showed that after she got home from dinner, she suddenly decided she just wanted to eat one mushroom? Where are the other mushrooms it came with?

I read a report that it was a piece of apple from her dessert that hadn't gone down yet, proving how closely she'd eaten to the time that she died. I also read they hadn't even preserved the piece, which is why I don't think those people can investigate properly the contents of an empty paper bag.

I'd once read that RS was attributed with chopping up the mushrooms. I guess he decided to shove just one down her throat and somehow dispose of all the other mushrooms, but leave his "supposed" footprint on a bathmat, which is just another absurd claim that the prosecution made about the print. we all know and RG knows, that was his foot on that bathmat.
Click to expand...

OK, I really had read that it was a mushroom, and Hendry even has in his analysis that she comes home and picks a mushroom out of the fridge. (or was it an analysis I read on Perugia Shock? May have been the latter.)But okie, it maybe is not true.
And here is Frank Sfarzo's old post from Perugia Shock:

We may imagine, for instance, that that evening Rudy went to visit the boys downstairs, uninvited, as he used to do. There was nobody there and he noticed that in the girls' apartment there was no one as well. So he returned towards the town. By the basketball court he maybe met two delinquents, those who are dangerous, those who have a knife in their jacket ready to use.
Maybe these people wanted him to return some money, and wanted them immediately. He wouldn't have them and to save himself he maybe proposed to go look in that isolated cottage, a place easy to break-in unseen, a place where he knew there was no one and certainly there had to be something of value.
In the meanwhile probably Meredith came back home.
Maybe they went to the house and Rudy buzzed, just to be sure there was no one in.
But Meredith was in (a little piece of mushroom was found in her esophagus so maybe she was in the kitchen where she had tasted something that was in the fridge). Maybe she went to the door and asked who was. Rudy made recognize himself, I'm Rudy the friend of Giacomo and Stefano, remember?
Maybe Meredith opened the door to that gentle voice and the two junkies entered together with Rudy
 
SMK said:
OK, I really had read that it was a mushroom, and Hendry even has in his analysis that she comes home and picks a mushroom out of the fridge. (or was it an analysis I read on Perugia Shock? May have been the latter.)But okie, it maybe is not true.
Click to expand...

Hope this helps

"He (Professor Introna) recalled the reports by Dr. Lalli and the other experts stating that under macroscopic examination, the stomach contents revealed a piece of apple and floury fragments which might have been from the crumble or from the pizza. He also recalled that the emptying of the stomach under standard conditions starts around three and a half hours after the start of a meal, say between three and four hours after, and that the term "emptying" indicates the stomach emptying its contents (into the duodenum). "

(Massei, Eng trans, p132)
 
As for the digestion process it starts upon the first bite eaten. There was no abnormal pathology of her stomach. As well the contents were in advance stages of digestion and Dr. Lalli video taped the autopsy and the duodenum was tied off properly to prevent slippage of the contents from the stomach

"Dr. Lalli specified that death was considered as occurring not more than two to three hours after eating (page 47 of the hearing transcript, and the adjustment described in the footnote on February 13, 2008). He stated that the emptying of the stomach occurs between a minimum of two hours and a maximum of four hours after the meal is consumed (page 62, transcripts) and also confirmed that the duodenum was empty (page 63). Answering specific questions from the defence of Raffaele Sollecito, Dr. Lalli stated that death had intervened two to three hours after eating (page 47), while reaffirming that the emptying of the stomach generally occurs between two hours and a maximum of 4 hours after eating (page 62, hearing on April 3, 2009). "
(Massei, Eng trans, pp115-116)
 
Nova said:
So we don't know what time the computers were used and the 9:10 P.M. time that has been repeated several times of late is just more piece of misleading testimony from ILE.
Click to expand...

The one computer of RS's had 2 operating systems on it. ILE did not put in their report the opening of the cartoon Naruto at 9:26.

It appears ILE computer expert knew nothing about Mac OS and the defense was able to show additional activity after reviewing the hard drive

Thus ILE only listed files that were opened on the windowserver.log file and even there they messed up

As per RS's appeal

"Indeed, searching with Spotlight in version 10.4.10 was detected at least one file "Naruto ep 101.avi" which is not present in advice of the police post, but whose date of last opening is Thursday 1 November 2007 at 21:26 "

It appears they detected screen saver activity as well

"Once a system and built the same version as the one used by Raffaele Dunning, ie Mac OS X 10.4.10 (Build 8R2232), it was possible to obtain correct data display key information acquiring importance for the decision"
 
AK was on the phone with FR at 10:30pm at ILE police station when they stated they wanted to speak with her and AK had to hang up. This phone call is in the logs
 
Summary of hours AK spent at the ILE station (the best I could find)

Amanda Knox has been subject to examination and investigation and between 2 and 6 November 2007 until the firm has provided summary information and responded to questions from the AG as follows:

the November 2, 2007, 15:30 FRIDAY ': total hours ... ... ... ... ..12.00
Knox report summary information without indication of the closure.
Witnesses until 3:00 am on November 3, 2007
the November 3, 2007, Saturday 14.45 total hours ... ... ... ... ... ...8.00
Knox report summary information without indication of the closure.
Witnesses show up at 22.00.
the November 4, 2007, 14.45 Sunday: total hours ... ... ... ....12.00
Knox report summary information, and access to the chalet Via
For the throat from 14.45 to 21 hours.Call Amanda's aunt says 5 hours interrogation at police headquarters
l 5 / 6 November 2007, at 1:45 MONDAY '/ TUESDAY': total hours ... ... ..5.00
Report summary information of Knox beginning at 22.00 on 5 November 2009.
the November 6, 2007, at 05:45 TUESDAY ': total hours ... ... ... ... ... ....3.45
Minutes of "spontaneous declarations" in a subsequent short Knox memorial. 1.45 pm to 5.45 am to 14.00 and memorial
 
Allusonz said:
Hope this helps

"He (Professor Introna) recalled the reports by Dr. Lalli and the other experts stating that under macroscopic examination, the stomach contents revealed a piece of apple and floury fragments which might have been from the crumble or from the pizza. He also recalled that the emptying of the stomach under standard conditions starts around three and a half hours after the start of a meal, say between three and four hours after, and that the term "emptying" indicates the stomach emptying its contents (into the duodenum). "

(Massei, Eng trans, p132)
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Thanks. So the mushroom was an error, but you can see why I had it stuck in my mind. And this does put TOD early, which to my thinking points to Guede as a lone wolf killer.
 
otto said:
According to the motivation report; pg 37:

"She remembered that they had eaten pizza and an apple cake. She did not know when they had finished eating; perhaps an hour before leaving; and she indicated that they had left the house at around 20:45 pm."

That means they finished eating around 7:45. Would there be nothing in the stomach except a mushroom (which was not in the meal) if she died at 9:30?
Click to expand...

Digestion does not start for the purposes of a TOD of when they finished eating it starts from the time they started eating. That is a very important distinction
 
SMK said:
Thanks. So the mushroom was an error, but you can see why I had it stuck in my mind. And this does put TOD early, which to my thinking points to Guede as a lone wolf killer.
Click to expand...

If the prosecution tries to advance the TOD now that so many variables are known they will have a very difficult if not impossible time doing so.

Like I have said many times the first thing they should of done was take the body temperature that is forensics 101.

In this case though there is more than enough variables known to use the stomach contents as an accurate TOD.

Many try to take the longest time possible and make a case from that but science simply does not work that way :)

ETA All the pathologists IIRC stated between 2 - 4 hours with 3 hours being the probable time at trial (even the prosecution one)
 
otto said:
If Amanda fails in her appeals, which is possible given the abundance of evidence, I wonder if she would request a transfer to the US or Germany ... or if she would be perfectly happy to continue playing up the medievil backwards angle and stay in Italy. She is looking at 15 years no matter what. Are the Donald Trumps of the world going to wait or will a real case surface in the meantime... leaving Knox with a small audience? The mobs are fickle ... will the desperate novelists still be perched for a story in 15 or 30 years?
Click to expand...
Well, if she is innocent - and Sollecito as well - 15 years is a very long sentence for something one did not do. If guilty, it is a very short time (at least by US Draconian standards, where even involuntary manslaughter is often treated the same as premeditated murder in terms of prison sentences--A young guy of 19 got about 40 years for an accidental killing during a fight in Florida - horrifying to me). If she gets 15, then of course the crowd will dwindle, UNLESS something can be done to change things, in which case it will not. The 15 years will be wrong whatever way you look at it: If innocent, too long; if guilty, too short. Nothing to celebrate either way.:razz:
 
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