Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #13

[SMK]

After hearing the testimony from all experts, the jury concluded that it was not Rudy's footprint.

Couldn't they just use their own eyes? It clearly matches RG and not RS.

 

[otto]

Especially since she was supposed to work all night. Most people would eat before, and so did they. She however changed the dinner time 3 times, her bf said he ate alone, they got busted by his fathers phone call, and the ping records of AK's phone. Who would not remember having dinner before going out to work all night? Seriously. And of course there are so many more things they just don't remember or where they contradict each other. It is not what convicted them by itself but it is all very telling.

Thanks. I forgot about going to work, but of course, that should have been a key point in terms of backtracking and determining the timeline of the night before the murder.

 

[SMK]

According to the motivation report; pg 37:

"She remembered that they had eaten pizza and an apple cake. She did not know when they had finished eating; perhaps an hour before leaving; and she indicated that they had left the house at around 20:45 pm."

That means they finished eating around 7:45. Would there be nothing in the stomach except a mushroom (which was not in the meal) if she died at 9:30?

The mushroom was up in the esophegus (low end of the throat)--the other food had not yet reached the deudonum(annex after stomach)--I had it all straight at one time, and became convinced TOD had to be EARLY. I would have to go back and reread all, too tired now.

 

[SkewedView]

Right. Why does the U.S. have prison sentences that are much, much longer than many other countries? It baffles me and I do not grasp what is at the crux of it.

IMO - it's all about those blasted Puritan roots of our culture, and it's obsession with punishment, sin and plain old societal revenge. We are, in the end, a very Old Testament society.

 

[SMK]

IMO - it's all about those blasted Puritan roots of our culture, and it's obsession with punishment, sin and plain old societal revenge. We are, in the end, a very Old Testament society.

It must be. It really makes us appear very bizarre, which I guess we are. : (

 

[SkewedView]

Couldn't they just use their own eyes? It clearly matches RG and not RS.

Going by my eyes it's about useless as a piece of evidence against anyone. Seriously, that bathmat is so ratty that the print looks like an ink-blot test!:waitasec:

 

[otto]

Right. Why does the U.S. have prison sentences that are much, much longer than many other countries? It baffles me and I do not grasp what is at the crux of it.

I think it's because the US system is based on punishment, rather than rehabilitation; this the foundation for the practices of euthanasia and life long sentences. We know that pediphiles and serial murders often cannot be rehabilitated, but many criminals can be rehabilitated with the right prison programs. Perhaps psychology associations need to take the iniative and try to bring about reform such that the US prison system looks to correct and rehabilitate prisoners rather than kill or imprison them for life ... especially since the current system does not seem to work as a deterent for criminals or people not yet imprisoned.

 

[SkewedView]

After hearing the testimony from all experts, the jury concluded that it was not Rudy's footprint.

And again, Juries assume that they are being presented with evidence on good faith, while many so-called experts present questionable findings as definitive proof. Check out the disturbing history of hair and fiber testimony in courts to get an idea of what I'm referring to. And in answer to the inevitable 'why would they lie?', they usually aren't lying, per se, they simply have a vested interest in making their expertise invaluable to LE and Prosecutors (or Defense Attorneys, as the case may be), and as such they feel they must speak with complete assurance and confidence in their findings (or opinions, as is often the case).

I should also point out that most Jurists are terrible when it comes to understanding things like the difference between 'identical' and 'similar', along with things like peer review, accreditation etc. (Check out the Author's Notes in the Kathy Reichs books for a good diatribe about that last one).

 

[SkewedView]

I think it's because the US system is based on punishment, rather than rehabilitation; this the foundation for the practices of euthanasia and life long sentences. We know that pediphiles and serial murders often cannot be rehabilitated, but many criminals can be rehabilitated with the right prison programs. Perhaps psychology associations need to take the iniative and try to bring about reform such that the US prison system looks to correct and rehabilitate prisoners rather than kill or imprison them for life ... especially since the current system does not seem to work as a deterent for criminals or people not yet imprisoned.

You are precisely correct here - and IMO alot of the problem is also that Americans like to punish SINS, not crimes (aka, non-violent, consensual actions that general society frowns upon, such as drug use, prostitution, 'obscene' materials that aren't CP)

 

[otto]

You should hear my wife and I trying to sequence the events of one of our days, it's like a badly written comedy! :crazy:

That said, I can understand your argument, however, didn't the pair of them spend most of their waking hours those four days at the police station (mostly waiting around from my understanding, but nevertheless)? If this is in fact true, that would seem to preclude them having the time or energy to fact check their recollection of things, especially given that the police had yet to inform them that they were suspects (and if you're not a suspect, why worry about whether the times of your alibi are accurate, right?). All of the above is based on my, at the moment, imperfect recollection of the time line of events during that week, so please correct me if I am mistaken.

It's been claimed that Amanda was questioned by police for 54 hours. That might even come up in this next trial since it's about Amanda's claims during that questioning period. Meredith was murdered on Nov 1, and many people were asked to go to the police station on Nov 2. I believe that Amanda was interviewed late in the evening and asked to come back the following day. On Nov 6, at 1:45 AM, they were arrested.

I might make mistakes, so correct me if I do ... but that isn't possible by a long stretch:

Waking hours: from noon Nov 2 to 1 AM Nov 6 = 85 hours

Claimed witness questioning: 54 hours

Remaining hours: 31 hours

Time to sleep: 7 hours per night times 3 = 21 hours

Time to eat: 11 meals at say 30 minutes = 6.5 hours

Time on the phone, shower, toilette: 3-6 hours = 3

That accounts for the other 31 hours. If she was questioned for 54 hours in that time period, how did she have time to go lingerie shopping, have sex, visit with Raffaele's friends, send emails, talk with Perugia instructors, figure out the rent situation, contact the University, so on?

 

[SkewedView]

It's been claimed that Amanda was questioned by police for 54 hours. That might even come up in this next trial since it's about Amanda's claims during that questioning period. Meredith was murdered on Nov 1, and many people were asked to go to the police station on Nov 2. I believe that Amanda was interviewed late in the evening and asked to come back the following day. On Nov 6, at 1:45 AM, they were arrested.

I might make mistakes, so correct me if I do ... but that isn't possible by a long stretch:

Waking hours: from noon Nov 2 to 1 AM Nov 6 = 85 hours

Claimed witness questioning: 54 hours

Remaining hours: 31 hours

Time to sleep: 7 hours per night times 3 = 21 hours

Time to eat: 11 meals at say 30 minutes = 6.5 hours

Time on the phone, shower, toilette: 3-6 hours = 3

That accounts for the other 31 hours. If she was questioned for 54 hours in that time period, how did she have time to go lingerie shopping, have sex, visit with Raffaele's friends, send emails, talk with Perugia instructors, figure out the rent situation, contact the University, so on?

Thank you. This is why it is important to find out a more detailed timeline of those all important days - it really has a huge impact on whether or not they were exhausted during questioning (we really can't assume that they got a full nights rest each day without that timeline, and if they didn't...).

BTW, the lingerie thing has long since been proven to be just plain old underwear shopping, which only proves that she's not some nasty stinky girl that wears dirty underwear for days on end - continuing to use that misleading terminology after the act was proven normal and harmless hurts the credibility of surrounding statements, and probably should be avoided. Please note that I'm not attacking you, just pointing out an avoidable hot-button.

 

[otto]

You are precisely correct here - and IMO alot of the problem is also that Americans like to punish SINS, not crimes (aka, non-violent, consensual actions that general society frowns upon, such as drug use, prostitution, 'obscene' materials that aren't CP)

Once you add religion and politics to how society deals with people that are not properly socialized, we do see things like what the Romans did with Christ ... but most westernized societies aboloshed the death penalty long ago. Many countries divide prisoners into two categories: those that will get better (released), and those that will not get better (psychiatric housing - often impossible to get out of). When someone is locked up for life, it is because there is a serious mental defect that presents a danger to soceity. Joran van der Sloot, if he is ever tried in Aruba, would end up in a psychiatric ward in the Netherlands because of his additional offenses. He would never be released. Jens would be released after 7 years in Germany because he was young at the time of the crime, and there was a strong indication of rehabiliation. Knox has been sentenced to 26 years, and now more charges are being piled on, but if it were a clean cut case she would be released after 15 years ... hopefully rehabilitated.

If the appeal is denied, I wonder if Amanda will apply for transfer to the US. She would be closer to her family ... but would she really want to see the inside of a US prison after the comforts in Perugia?

 

[otto]

Thank you. This is why it is important to find out a more detailed timeline of those all important days - it really has a huge impact on whether or not they were exhausted during questioning (we really can't assume that they got a full nights rest each day without that timeline, and if they didn't...).

BTW, the lingerie thing has long since been proven to be just plain old underwear shopping, which only proves that she's not some nasty stinky girl that wears dirty underwear for days on end - continuing to use that misleading terminology after the act was proven normal and harmless hurts the credibility of surrounding statements, and probably should be avoided. Please note that I'm not attacking you, just pointing out an avoidable hot-button.

I think they were questioned on more than one day, possibly 3/4 days: day of the murder, day they were arrested, plus one other day. Still, they needed time to go lingerie shopping, and all that other stuff

 

[SkewedView]

Once you add religion and politics to how society deals with people that are not properly socialized, we do see things like what the Romans did with Christ ... but most westernized societies aboloshed the death penalty long ago. Many countries divide prisononers into two categories: those that will get better (released), and those that will not get better (psychiatric housing - often impossible to get out of). When someone is locked up for life, it is because there is a serious mental defect that presents a danger to soceity. Joran van der Sloot, if he is ever tried in Aruba, would end up in a psychiatric ward in the Netherlands because of his additional offenses. He would never be released. Jens would be released after 7 years in Germany because he was young at the time of the crime, and there was a strong indication of rehabiliation. Knox has been sentenced to 26 years, and now more charges are being piled on, but if it were a clean cut case she would be released after 15 years ... hopefully rehabilitated.

If the appeal is denied, I wonder if Amanda will apply for transfer to the US. She would be closer to her family ... but would she really want to see the inside of a US prison after the comforts in Perugia?

I wasn't aware that the US and Italy had a prisoner exchange system, how does that work, precisely?

 

[otto]

I wasn't aware that the US and Italy had a prisoner exchange system, how does that work, precisely?

Not sure, but the Netherlands and Peru just completed the process and prisoners can now be exchanged. Since Italy and Germany are both in the EU, maybe Amanda could be transferred to Germany to be closer to her aunt and uncle, and Chris Mellas could go home to his wife?

 

[SkewedView]

Not sure, but the Netherlands and Peru just completed the process and prisoners can now be exchanged. Since Italy and Germany are both in the EU, maybe Amanda could be transferred to Germany to be closer to her aunt and uncle, and Chris Mellas could go home to his wife?

Hmmm, an interesting set of ideas. I'll have to do some research, as time permits.

 

[wasnt_me]

So which is it? The Italian jury was composed of geniuses (just like Italian cops) whose decision is infallible? Or they were a bunch of idiots who convicted a girl of murder because she wore a T-shirt?



Apparently, you've never smoked hash. Sleeping for 13 hours is not hard to believe. Apparently, you've never been 20-years-old and in a new relationship. Having sex for 13 hours isn't impossible. Put the two (sleep and sex) together and it's no big deal to account for the 13 hours.

But BTW, I don't believe the 9:10 PM time. That's just another one of ILE's "adjustments" (i.e., lies) to fit their round peg into a square hole.

Ah, bears repeating....the good old days, (sans the murder conviction of course...) Hell, my mom can go to bed at 9pm and sleep till 10am esp, if there's a holiday the next day.

However, we know this isn't what was done. We know that they had a leak in the kitchen to clean up, we know they also had human interaction on the computer which is part of the new evidence hopefully being allowed in this appeal.

It's doesn't make sense to argue that they slept till 10am, anyways, because we know RS was not asleep when he was playing music and turning on his phone around 5 or 6am. And we know he was doing it at his own house, to boot.

 

[wasnt_me]

I would also like to note that a Jury's verdict can only be trusted if the facts were presented to them in good faith by all parties concerned, and only if the presiding Judge betrays no bias towards either the Prosecution or the Defense.

Of course, given that systems like those of the US and Italy give ridiculous protections to LE and Prosecutors that engage in misconduct during trials, that the average citizen assumes that arrest=guilt and of course the ever-present confusion amongst Jurors regarding burden of proof...well, let's just say I'm not inclined to put a great amount of faith in the verdicts handed down by my 'peers'. No offense intended towards those of you who have served on Juries.

I agree but just wondering in what country arrest DOESNT equal guilt these days, especially in the media. I love how people tend to sit back and say what they wouldn't have done in AK's shoes, but the truth is, they haven't been in those shoes. Without being in them I'm not sure how even a jury can really comprehend.

It's worth noting that Italian juries consist of 8. 2 are judges and the rest are "lay judges." from what I understand, they 6 are not judges at all, but regular jurors as you'd have in the USA. One of the judges actually presides over the case.

I find that to be a complete injustice because it appears that the case was really brought on by one man, Magnini, who was also the lead investigator on the case. ILE took their directions from him. He then picked what he thought was important for trial. Then he was the prosecutor as well. Next, you seem to have a trial whose outcome was decided by just one man. the judge who wrote the motivational report.

I say this because it's very likely that the two judges on the jury pretty much ran the whole jury process. I personally can't imagine lay citizens disputing with them successfully. Given that Massei (was it?) was also the judge, I'm of the belief that he pretty much made the final decisions and wrote the entire report. Perhaps with the help of the other judge. It's also rumored that the jury did not even deliberate innocence.

I'm not saying the theory is true, but you gotta wonder how fair a trial is that's designed that way.

At least in the USA, the police operates separately from the prosecution in building the case. They determine who gets arrested, perhaps with some pressure from the DA's office, not going to lie, but the investigation isn't headed up by the DA or prosecutor. He is not out in the field scooting evidence on day one like Mignini was. Next the prosecutor does try the case, but the judge is separate from the jury, which is composed of random people that the prosecution and defense teams cherry pick. But the chances of having two judges in this seats? I'd say just as low as the low copy DNA on the "murder knife." But in Italy, if I read correctly, two judges will be on each jury and one will preside, as well.

I'd also asked before what kind of investigative experience Mignini has because if you are in the field collecting evidence on day one of the murder, seems you'd have to have police investigative training. I might be over thinking it, but do prosecutors and judges go through that kind of training in Italy? How do they gain the knowledge to direct the police on an investigation?

 

[otto]

"Bruce Fisher" (whoever he is) has openly criticized respected journalist Andrea Vogt on the basis of her articles about Embassy reports documenting Amanda's statements against police immediately after her arrest ... just when the police slander trial is to begin. I think this is the right time for these reports to released ... this information should be in the news now. Who cares if some grad student found the same information in 2008 and put it on the net? What does that have to do with anything?

What we have is this "Bruce Fisher" character popping up and claiming there's a conspiracy or deception in information, that these reports were published long ago, so how could Andrea possibly think she has a scoop with the Embassy reports? He thinks it means she is completely clued out and will next report on "landing on the moon". Well, I don't think that she thinks she has a scoop. I think she's a journalist that attended and reported on the trial. I think this "Bruce Fisher" character is vulgar to suggest that the because the journalist was publishing the information this week, shortly before the police slander trail, it is because the information was just discovered. In fact, this information has been known for a long time, but it is important now. Why criticize a journalist for doing her job?

 

[wasnt_me]

Courts accept the testimony of paid hacks (on both sides) all the time. That is why there is a growing trend of attorneys asking such witnesses if they are being compensated for their testimony, how often they give it for prosecutors/defense attorneys (as the case may be), etc. I am not saying that is the case here, for the experts on either side (I need to do more research before making such a statement), I am simply stating that a court accepting the testimony of an 'expert' is meaningless, especially given the woeful ignorance of most Judges regarding scientific matters.

Here I must add that the court agreed with few if NONE of the defenses experts, even if they decided to allow them. Some they didn't allow because they weren't Italian. Hardly a fair trial for an american. But anyways, it's very peculiar that the court didn't agree with the defense on hardly anything, even siding against them when the prosecution withheld evidence, stating that "they had what they needed," to the defense. Then they finally do give the defense some information, and it reveals that Steph withheld evidence about her TMB tests.

Steph also collected evidence at the scene and therefore should never have been allowed to test it. She collected it, knew what results she wants, and she biased the tests as a result. But she was allowed to speak and her testimony and her tests given credit all day long.

And if I'm not mistaken, she'd given out misleading forensic test results in another trial, so I hardly call her expert. Yet, there she was, allowed to help convict AK on some "new" test she pulled out of thin air.