MI MI - Julia Niswender, 23, EMU student, Ypsilanti, 10 Dec 2012 - #5

[Skigirl]

The affidavit mentions two different male DNA donors were found in the gloves. JT was excluded as a donor for one of the samples and the other sample was too weak for comparison.

It is mentioned that the vaginal, rectal and thigh swabs tested positive for seminal fluid containing no sperm.

No mention of DNA extracts from these three semen swabs was contained in the affidavit. I found two forensic studies on DNA extraction from semen of vasectomized donors and in both studies they were able to extract DNA from all donor samples. (Study 1- 6 of 6 donors, Study 2 - 90 of 90 donors).

Study 1 http://tinyurl.com/ou2ds44

Study 2 http://tinyurl.com/nv5bldy

I’m certainly no DNA expert, but based on these studies, I find it difficult to believe that no DNA could be extracted from any of the three swabs.

Is it possible that they were able to extract DNA and it doesn’t match JT, otherwise he would have been arrested already and also doesn’t match anyone registered in CODIS. If they were able to extract DNA from swabs, do they match the DNA from the gloves.

Is it possible JT is still of POI because this could have been a murder for hire with JT not actually committing the murder?

My background is in neuroscience, but I work in molecular diagnostics now. DNA is in every kind of body cell and also circulates in all sorts of body fluids in a cell-free manner. It doesn't matter whether there is sperm or not. We can get a fetus' DNA out of the mother's blood. We can capture single tumor cells from blood and get DNA and RNA from those. There is no way that you couldn't get the donor's own DNA out of the donor's own fluid if you are at all skilled in the art, assuming there is nothing about the conditions that the sample have been subjected to, like extreme heat.

 

[Spellbound]

My background is in neuroscience, but I work in molecular diagnostics now. DNA is in every kind of body cell and also circulates in all sorts of body fluids in a cell-free manner. It doesn't matter whether there is sperm or not. We can get a fetus' DNA out of the mother's blood. We can capture single tumor cells from blood and get DNA and RNA from those. There is no way that you couldn't get the donor's own DNA out of the donor's own fluid if you are at all skilled in the art, assuming there is nothing about the conditions that the sample have been subjected to, like extreme heat.

BBM
I think the bolded comment is the key. No or too little sperm found, the sample is too small; and she was in the water for how long? Could be other factors that made it too difficult. Or possibly samples have been sent for further, more intensive testing?

 

[Skigirl]

BBM
I think the bolded comment is the key. No or too little sperm found, the sample is too small; and she was in the water for how long? Could be other factors that made it too difficult. Or possibly samples have been sent for further, more intensive testing?

Whether there is sperm or not isn't relevant, but of course, there are other things that can make testing difficult. Not enough material can be an issue, but the amount of material needed is very small. Yes, it's possible that they needed to send the sample out to a reference lab for more advanced testing than they could do locally.

 

[Hatfield]

I don't disagree that JT should be on the POI list at all... but it seems like we're sort of at a dead end with what is known now and we will be until and unless there is evidence that was uncovered is revealed yet (e.g., texts/email, DNA from the seminal fluid). I'm interested in exploring all possibilities, including keeping an open mind that more than one individual (eg someone Julia knew in Milan or someone Julia knew in Ypsi or an individual that could have fallen in both categories) would be interesting to explore. JMO.

I agree and especially because of the 2nd lie detector test submitted by LE was my understanding. I know lie detector tests are inadmissable and some people can mislead them and some administers of the tests may not be as good as others.

If LE gave the 2nd one then it means LE was in control of it so I do put some weight on the fact he passed that LE submitted test. It doesn't mean anything 100 percent but I did find that interesting and it means to me that others should be looked at that knew her.

I can see why this case is so difficult because things like that open up other possibilities and so LE has to be careful not to have tunnel vision.

 

[caspermi]

, it's possible that they needed to send the sample out to a reference lab for more advanced testing than they could do locally.

It's going on three years since the murder. How long of a wait if the samples were sent to a reference lab?

From the affidavit, the samples were sent to the State Police Crime Lab on Dec 13, 2012 but the Detective didn't discuss the swab results with the lab scientist until September 26, 2014. Is this a typical turnaround time?

 

[Hatfield]

Whether there is sperm or not isn't relevant, but of course, there are other things that can make testing difficult. Not enough material can be an issue, but the amount of material needed is very small. Yes, it's possible that they needed to send the sample out to a reference lab for more advanced testing than they could do locally.

Some states have a huge backlog for the real thorough DNA testing and some states have to send it to other states. Maybe there has been an order submitted to another state to do full screen DNA testing of the fluid and maybe that is the reason the affidativ did not go into a lot of detail about the fluid.

I keep thinking like saliva and surely semen fluid is at least as good as saliva in getting a full screen DNA at the molecular level.

 

[Hatfield]

It's going on three years since the murder. How long of a wait if the samples were sent to a reference lab?

From the affidavit, the samples were sent to the State Police Crime Lab on Dec 13, 2012 but the Detective didn't discuss the swab results with the lab scientist until September 26, 2014. Is this a typical turnaround time?

They may have hoped their own testing would be enough and once they got inconclusive results then maybe they only sent off the new order in September 2014 to an out of state lab for more thorough testing.

I have heard of 1 state that had a year or more backlog to get results so even in the worst case scenario LE should be very close to getting any test results back by now.

It doesn't sound too promising that more results are coming from what we know so far. Of course they probably would not tell anyone if they did send off for more testing back in Sept 2014

 

[Spellbound]

Whether there is sperm or not isn't relevant, but of course, there are other things that can make testing difficult. Not enough material can be an issue, but the amount of material needed is very small. Yes, it's possible that they needed to send the sample out to a reference lab for more advanced testing than they could do locally.

I am not convinced of that, Skigirl. It isn't my field of interest, but from Penn Medicine:
http://www.pennmedicine.org/encyclopedia/em_PrintArticle.aspx?gcid=002995

"The male reproductive system creates sperm that is manufactured in the seminiferous tubules within each testicle. The head of the sperm contains the DNA, which when combined with the egg's DNA, will create a new individual."

BBM

This conference paper explains one way to get a DNA profile from a vasectomized sample. Perhaps our sample was not enough to do it after the first test. http://www.promega.com/~/media/file...dings/ishi 12/poster abstracts/jaiprakash.pdf

 

[MIMOMMY]

If JT owned a cleaning business and had such a great relationship with the girls, why didn't JN regularly work for him? With him being the boss, I would assume that her work schedule could be made somewhat flexible in order to work around class/travel times.. or even just on weekends and holiday breaks.

Its almost made to seem as though he is doing JN a big favor by letting her earn some extra holiday money. I wonder why? He obviously had other employee's, as its stated that he left rather early in order to pick them up.
I know if my husband owned a business, my children would be more than encouraged to help our 'family' business, rather than a huge corporation.

JT's cleaning business is far from "corporation" like. Generally when I saw him he was working alone, racing from one job to another. I saw him with staff only when he needed to complete a larger project for us in a short time frame. I would assume that Julia needed steady income and not just periodic income?

 

[Hatfield]

I found a good link that basically tries to answer this question too.

Can a DNA sample be taken from semen from someone who has had a vasectomy (no sperm)?

The answer is confusing and I think the answer is yes, sometimes. LOL

http://www.straightdope.com/columns...-vasectomy-can-dna-be-obtained-from-his-semen

 

[Spellbound]

One more explanation of extracting DNA from vasectomized sample, but it includes having the sample mixed with the the woman's :

From Bode Cellmark Forensics
http://www.bodetech.com/forensic-solutions/resources-and-faqs/
[h=3]Could you give me an example of when Y-STR testing would be beneficial?[/h]Y-STR testing would be beneficial in the case of a mixture with a major component female STR profile and a few alleles from a male contributor. A partial to full Y-STR profile would most likely be obtained because the Y-STR primers can focus on the male DNA without the female DNA interfering with the interpretation. Y-STR testing can be useful for samples believed to have originated from azospermic or vasectomized males as well as non-sexual samples such as mixed DNA profiles from touch evidence tested from fingernails, clothing, and guns.

---

[h=3]How many sperm cells would be recommended in order to obtain a Y-STR profile from a sample?[/h]1 sperm head contains approximately 3pg (picograms) of DNA. We target 500-1000pg of DNA to produce at least a low level YSTR profile, which is about 160 – 333 sperm cells. Ideally 100+ sperm cells will produce a full YSTR profile.

 

[caspermi]

I found a good link that basically tries to answer this question too.

Can a DNA sample be taken from semen from someone who has had a vasectomy (no sperm)?

The answer is confusing and I think the answer is yes, sometimes. LOL

http://www.straightdope.com/columns...-vasectomy-can-dna-be-obtained-from-his-semen

I previously posted links (post #1047) to two studies that clearly show the answer is 'yes'.

 

[Hatfield]

The link explains that other cells besides sperm cells are in semen. SKIN CELLS are one type that can be in there too.

Skin Cells have DNA too, even in males producing absolutely, positively, zero sperm.

So DNA can be extracted from vasectomized males semen but it is like we have been saying.

The bottom line is it all depends on the quality of the sample.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns...-vasectomy-can-dna-be-obtained-from-his-semen

 

[Hatfield]

I previously posted links (post #1047) to two studies that clearly show the answer is 'yes'.

Thanks....its quite fascinating to learn about this.

 

[Spellbound]

I found a good link that basically tries to answer this question too.

Can a DNA sample be taken from semen from someone who has had a vasectomy (no sperm)?

The answer is confusing and I think the answer is yes, sometimes. LOL

http://www.straightdope.com/columns...-vasectomy-can-dna-be-obtained-from-his-semen

Hatfield, I think the answer is a weak "maybe". From your link:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns...-vasectomy-can-dna-be-obtained-from-his-semen

If, however, you wanted to know whether DNA could be recovered from sperm cells from the semen of a vasectomized male whose surgery was absolutely and totally successful, well, the answer is "no, of course not.

Finally, if your question had anything to do with forensic DNA analysis, like "could a DNA sample be recovered from semen from a vasectomized male," the answer is "maybe." Forensic samples are usually not the whole ejaculated volume (samples tend to be small) and may be degraded and/or contaminated. Of course, that applies to any semen sample, whether from a vasectomized male or not.

BBM

 

[Skigirl]

It's going on three years since the murder. How long of a wait if the samples were sent to a reference lab?

From the affidavit, the samples were sent to the State Police Crime Lab on Dec 13, 2012 but the Detective didn't discuss the swab results with the lab scientist until September 26, 2014. Is this a typical turnaround time?

Many reference labs can do that type of testing with a turnaround of two weeks or less (limited mostly by how many samples they receive so they can fill up the run). State crime labs are limited mostly by backlog, not the time it takes to actually do the testing.

 

[caspermi]

How many sperm cells would be recommended in order to obtain a Y-STR profile from a sample?[/FONT][/B][/h]1 sperm head contains approximately 3pg (picograms) of DNA. We target 500-1000pg of DNA to produce at least a low level YSTR profile, which is about 160 – 333 sperm cells. Ideally 100+ sperm cells will produce a full YSTR profile.

To put that in context, the average ejaculation contains approximately 250 million sperm cells.

 

[Skigirl]

I am not convinced of that, Skigirl. It isn't my field of interest, but from Penn Medicine:
http://www.pennmedicine.org/encyclopedia/em_PrintArticle.aspx?gcid=002995

"The male reproductive system creates sperm that is manufactured in the seminiferous tubules within each testicle. The head of the sperm contains the DNA, which when combined with the egg's DNA, will create a new individual."

BBM

This conference paper explains one way to get a DNA profile from a vasectomized sample. Perhaps our sample was not enough to do it after the first test. http://www.promega.com/~/media/file...dings/ishi 12/poster abstracts/jaiprakash.pdf

Respectfully, that quote answers the question about DNA for reproduction. Yes, sperm collide with eggs as we all know, and the DNA that is subject to the combination in a man is in the head of the sperm. But every cell in your whole body has DNA and seminal fluid is made of many kinds of cells not just sperm. Whether it's a red blood cell, or a skin cell or an epithelial cell or a neuron or whatever... if it's in your body, it has your DNA and that DNA can be tested.

 

[Skigirl]

Hatfield, I think the answer is a weak "maybe". From your link:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns...-vasectomy-can-dna-be-obtained-from-his-semen

If, however, you wanted to know whether DNA could be recovered from sperm cells from the semen of a vasectomized male whose surgery was absolutely and totally successful, well, the answer is "no, of course not.

Finally, if your question had anything to do with forensic DNA analysis, like "could a DNA sample be recovered from semen from a vasectomized male," the answer is "maybe." Forensic samples are usually not the whole ejaculated volume (samples tend to be small) and may be degraded and/or contaminated. Of course, that applies to any semen sample, whether from a vasectomized male or not.

BBM

Sorry to keep responding, but I think this is confusing a couple things. What the above says is that there can be residual sperm in the seminal fluid of a vasectomized male, and if those sperm are found, they can be tested. But that does not mean that sperm are the only types of cells in seminal fluid that can be tested.

 

[Hatfield]

Hatfield, I think the answer is a weak "maybe". From your link:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns...-vasectomy-can-dna-be-obtained-from-his-semen

If, however, you wanted to know whether DNA could be recovered from sperm cells from the semen of a vasectomized male whose surgery was absolutely and totally successful, well, the answer is "no, of course not.

Finally, if your question had anything to do with forensic DNA analysis, like "could a DNA sample be recovered from semen from a vasectomized male," the answer is "maybe." Forensic samples are usually not the whole ejaculated volume (samples tend to be small) and may be degraded and/or contaminated. Of course, that applies to any semen sample, whether from a vasectomized male or not.

BBM

From my understanding it all depends on if there are enough of ANY type of cells like even skin cells mentioned. We have learned that ALL cells have DNA and sperm cells are not the only cells found in semen. Skin cells could be there too.

So I think it depends on if they found ANY type of cells in the semen.

So we now know what they mean by quality of the sample. It all depends on quality. It is really interesting.