Missouri, St. Louis - Teenage girl critically injured after brutal fight with another female teen near Hazelwood East High School, 8 March 2024

[MollyDDD]

I think this really distills the needed concept down to its core element. Short, to the point- and needed.

Rather than going down rabbit holes of: "X's" spin appeals to me more. Therefore, I am willing to give him or her the benefit of the doubt(s).

The end result should be, as you said: "Both must pay the price for the choices they made".

That price must be meaningful for both contestants. That would mean an adult court. Meaningful prices for both contestants would also send a strong message to future gladiators and help ensure future safety:

- If you willingly enter a fight, spin control is not going to matter much in the final equation. Think before you enter the colosseum.

Bravo!!! IMO, Declue wanted to kill Gain. For whatever reason <modsnip: irrelevant> This was not “self defense”, not by a long shot. If Gain was annoying her, an intelligent “honor student/violin player” would know better and simply walk away
from the situation. She chose otherwise.

 

[MollyDDD]

I believe in watching the video once that Kaylee was a member of a “group”. MD knew she could ground and pound Kaylee ( which she did) but had to have back up to make sure Kaylees “group” didn’t even out the odds. ( which they attempted to do). Although these two groups may not be established gang members, they are acting as such

Absolutely. Animalistic gang activity takes care of their own.

 

[Dotta]

'We weren’t fully aware of the severity of her injuries until hours later when the surgeon came out to give us the first update.

That is when we learned that she arrived to the hospital in an unresponsive state,
and were informed if the paramedics had arrived even minutes later it is very likely
she would have died."

Certification hearing held for the 15-year-old charged in fight that left Kaylee Gain with severe brain injuries

www-firstalert4-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Yuletide]

Absolutely. Animalistic gang activity takes care of their own.

No they do not. KG was left to lay on the ground dying while her crew fled

 

[falkenberg3132]

Yeah... the Finger Snapping Gang trope in children's cartoons is more realistic than one might think!

Think also "Hey! This emergency exit is painted on!" scene from The Simpsons when Homer and co. realise that the person they were pranking is "done for".

 

[Yuletide]

There is no evidence that I have seen that the two “groups” involved in this hideous street fight were gang members. My opinion is they were acting like gang members. My other observation is that absolutely no one cared about KG once she was dying ( incapacitated)

 

[MollyDDD]

'We weren’t fully aware of the severity of her injuries until hours later when the surgeon came out to give us the first update.

That is when we learned that she arrived to the hospital in an unresponsive state,
and were informed if the paramedics had arrived even minutes later it is very likely
she would have died."

Certification hearing held for the 15-year-old charged in fight that left Kaylee Gain with severe brain injuries

www-firstalert4-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I recall reading that Kaylee laid there seriously injured before someone finally called 911.

 

[MollyDDD]

There is no evidence that I have seen that the two “groups” involved in this hideous street fight were gang members. My opinion is they were acting like gang members. My other observation is that absolutely no one cared about KG once she was dying ( incapacitated)

Sad to know that much of today’s compromised youth have only x-/gang/criminals to emulate in life. Where are their good role models?

 

[MollyDDD]

No they do not. KG was left to lay on the ground dying while her crew fled

I didn’t know that, in fact I thought I read that one of her “posse” tried to come between Kaylee and her attacker.

 

[falkenberg3132]

I didn’t know that, in fact I thought I read that one of her “posse” tried to come between Kaylee and her attacker.

I do wonder if that true -- or if that is just the "posse" attempting to cover their arse?

 

[Ladyotm]

There has been nothing at all to suggest that your opinion of MD being a seasoned fighter has any basis. On the contrary, from all available evidence Kaylee is the one that most fits your description.
I am not saying that MD didn't go way too far, she absolutely did, but I don't believe she planned it that way.

Yes, Kaylee is the victim but she is not blameless. That is becoming clearer all the time, even from her own parents description.

I was wondering when more information would come out about the background of these two young ladies. According to the unnamed officer, Kaylee was a bully who threw the first punch. She was suspended from school from fighting the previous day. IMO, she was at that location for no other reason than to fight, yet again.
IMO, I don't find it hard to believe at all that she routinely bullied Maurnice and others. I've seen constant comparisons between the size of the two girls. Bullies come in all sizes folks.

Maurnice had every right to defend herself, even from an attacker physically smaller than herself. Slamming Kaylee's head was a continuing of her defense, that was done in a moment where she was being piloted by adrenaline. I don't think her goal was to kill or harm Kaylee to the degree she did. Maybe just to send a message, stop the bullying. And I can believe her desire to apology is sincere.

I was all for swift, adult punishment when this story first came out. As the bigger picture becomes clearer, I don't believe this belongs in adult court. Maurnice will have to face consequences for the harm she caused Kaylee, while defending herself. And because she did not initiate the fight that day, there may be a history of her being victimized, and she was defending herself are all reasons I feel it should be held in juvenile court. And whatever sentence she receives, I hope that it is "justice" for Kaylee that also allows Maurnice to be "held accountable for her actions, while also helping her develop skills to avoid future delinquency, and mature into a law-abiding adult". (google search- what is the purpose of juvenile sentencings)

Handling this in adult court is not the answer. However if it is, any of Kaylee's school disciplinary and juvenile records (if they exist) will become public knowledge, as well as any evidence of prior bullying.

In all of this, I pray Kaylee gets the best treatment and services available and that she makes a complete recovery. I pray both girls can go on to lead productive and healthy lives.

I also help that there are lessons learned and changes made. I hope that this incident resonates with students at their school and with people within their community. A reasonation that produces change. Maybe beefing groups of students can come together and squash their issues. Perhaps even have some type of peer support groups for each other. Hopefully more parents will begin getting their children professional help to address the trauma they've experienced. And schools, I hope they can employ social workers, guidance counselors, and mental health professionals within the schools to meet students and families where they are, supporting them through difficult times and helping them get on the path to success.

 

[Cryptic]

Maurnice had every right to defend herself, even from an attacker physically smaller than herself.

Evidently, she agreed to fight K. Then, went to the mutually agreed meeting point. This would seem to detract from a "self defense" claim. Rather, it could make her a mutual combatant.

Giving M the benefit of too many doubts: Repeated head smashing was an uncontrollable response, Agreed to fight, but... still "defended" herself.) only endangers others at the school.

I strongly suspect that "uncontrollable responses" and "still self defense"- wink, nod" type claims can be applied in many acts of violence that occur in and around the school. Would other people also receive the same benefit of the doubt as "M"?

Will the next "still self defense" include another "uncontrollable" response- but with a Glock? Maybe:

Ok, we were dissing each other in social media. Yes, I agreed to fight- then went to the site. The bully was far larger than me- so I brought the Glock. It was self defense and my trigger response was an uncontrollable adrenaline rush,

In the end, K's lesson from bad choices is obvious. M's lesson must be meaningful as well. For me, that would involve presenting spins in an adult court.

 

[Yuletide]

We were originally told by MD ‘s family that she was waiting for her bus to come home when attacked by KG et al. Self defense might have taken wing under that scenario. However, that was not the case. MD agreed to meet and fight. That intent should resonate loudly with the Judge. No self defense.

 

[GRT]

I was wondering when more information would come out about the background of these two young ladies. According to the unnamed officer, Kaylee was a bully who threw the first punch. She was suspended from school from fighting the previous day. IMO, she was at that location for no other reason than to fight, yet again.
IMO, I don't find it hard to believe at all that she routinely bullied Maurnice and others. I've seen constant comparisons between the size of the two girls. Bullies come in all sizes folks.

Maurnice had every right to defend herself, even from an attacker physically smaller than herself. Slamming Kaylee's head was a continuing of her defense, that was done in a moment where she was being piloted by adrenaline. I don't think her goal was to kill or harm Kaylee to the degree she did. Maybe just to send a message, stop the bullying. And I can believe her desire to apology is sincere.

I was all for swift, adult punishment when this story first came out. As the bigger picture becomes clearer, I don't believe this belongs in adult court. Maurnice will have to face consequences for the harm she caused Kaylee, while defending herself. And because she did not initiate the fight that day, there may be a history of her being victimized, and she was defending herself are all reasons I feel it should be held in juvenile court. And whatever sentence she receives, I hope that it is "justice" for Kaylee that also allows Maurnice to be "held accountable for her actions, while also helping her develop skills to avoid future delinquency, and mature into a law-abiding adult". (google search- what is the purpose of juvenile sentencings)

Handling this in adult court is not the answer. However if it is, any of Kaylee's school disciplinary and juvenile records (if they exist) will become public knowledge, as well as any evidence of prior bullying.

In all of this, I pray Kaylee gets the best treatment and services available and that she makes a complete recovery. I pray both girls can go on to lead productive and healthy lives.

I also help that there are lessons learned and changes made. I hope that this incident resonates with students at their school and with people within their community. A reasonation that produces change. Maybe beefing groups of students can come together and squash their issues. Perhaps even have some type of peer support groups for each other. Hopefully more parents will begin getting their children professional help to address the trauma they've experienced. And schools, I hope they can employ social workers, guidance counselors, and mental health professionals within the schools to meet students and families where they are, supporting them through difficult times and helping them get on the path to success.

All good points. MD went too far, and I think everyone agrees with that.

But would there have been a fight had KG not thrown the first punch? Would MD have eventually thrown the first punch? Who knows? But we do know KG was a brawler who had just been suspended for fighting. According to news outlets, she was also a bully.

MD has to be held accountable for her extreme level of violence, but I don't think we can overlook KG's guilt in the whole thing. The fight didn't happen in a vacuum--MD didn't just jump KG on the way home from school.

We know the girls were in "opposing" groups, which is also highly troubling. That community has too high a violent crime rate amongst young people, and both girls may have been affected by that.

I agree with the juvenile officer--this case belongs in the juvenile system.

 

[falkenberg3132]

Leaning towards mercy and compassion towards the troubled and antagonists can actually be a double-edged sword. You only have to look at the "posse" self-evidently deciding to exploit it in the hope that that whole "left KG to die and got the hell out of Dodge" will be treated leniently.

All here should keep in mind that it's a lot easier to pluck a seedling than to tear down a tree.

 

[tlcya]

The judge denied the motion, and the 15-year-old is still in the detention center.

“I’m disappointed with the court’s ruling,” Smith said. “She’s been in detention for two months now. As you heard in the hearing she’s done fantastic in detention.
https://www-firstalert4-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.firstalert4.com/2024/05/10/certification-hearing-held-15-year-old-charged-fight-that-left-kaylee-gain-with-severe-brain-injuries/?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&outputType=amp&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=Od%3A%20%251%24s&aoh=17155522243655&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.firstalert4.com%2F2024%2F05%2F10%2Fcertification-hearing-held-15-year-old-charged-fight-that-left-kaylee-gain-with-severe-brain-injuries%2F

seems like if she's doing fantastic it ain't broke, so why fix it? I am pleased MD hasn't been released. Two months is nothing compared to the years KG will spend attempting to regain full function again and there is no guarantee she won't deal with life long after effects. While I do hope that as MD is facing the music for her actions that KG receive intensive counseling and not just for her trauma, but to ensure she TOO makes better decisions in future than the ones that landed her where she is now.

 

[falkenberg3132]

KG will never be the KG she once was as substantial personality and cognitive change is all but certain.

 

[GRT]

KG will never be the KG she once was as substantial personality and cognitive change is all but certain.

Maybe so, but I certainly hope she has a full recovery, and some of the most recent reports seem to indicate she has a good chance of a near-full recovery.

At the same time, KG is partially responsible for her condition. As a brawler and repeated participant in fights, she was willingly putting herself at risk. That doesn't mean she deserved what happened to her -- she didn't -- but she bears some of the responsibility.

KG's injuries--as bad as they were--don't erase her culpability in the matter.

Both girls made very poor decisions that day. MD exhibited a high level of violence for which she must be held responsible. But, to me, there's nothing to suggest MD made this type of thing a habit, and there's quite a bit of evidence that she didn't typically take part in fights. So, I don't think her crime rises to the level of being tried as an adult.

Going forward, I hope both girls learn from this and turn away from fights and violence.

 

[Yuletide]

Maybe so, but I certainly hope she has a full recovery, and some of the most recent reports seem to indicate she has a good chance of a near-full recovery.

At the same time, KG is partially responsible for her condition. As a brawler and repeated participant in fights, she was willingly putting herself at risk. That doesn't mean she deserved what happened to her -- she didn't -- but she bears some of the responsibility.

KG's injuries--as bad as they were--don't erase her culpability in the matter.

Both girls made very poor decisions that day. MD exhibited a high level of violence for which she must be held responsible. But, to me, there's nothing to suggest MD made this type of thing a habit, and there's quite a bit of evidence that she didn't typically take part in fights. So, I don't think her crime rises to the level of being tried as an adult.

Going forward, I hope both girls learn from this and turn away from fights and violence.

I believe KG’s parents reported that she is learning to brush her own teeth. In my mind, after two months, that does not immediately conjure up an image of a person fast tracking to a full recovery. In addition she is struggling with short term memory which equates in my mind to a person who can no longer learn. But, that is just my opinion.

 

[GRT]

I believe KG’s parents reported that she is learning to brush her own teeth. In my mind, after two months, that does not immediately conjure up an image of a person fast tracking to a full recovery. In addition she is struggling with short term memory which equates in my mind to a person who can no longer learn. But, that is just my opinion.

I sure hope she makes a full recovery. Her family's statement is encouraging...

"With God's grace, Kaylee's condition has improved considerably in the past month," said the Gain family's attorney, Bryan Kaemmerer, adding that Gain is now living at home after a month of hospitalization and two weeks at an in-patient rehabilitation facility.

She does have to wear a helmet because they had to remove part of her skull to keep pressure from building up. But, they'll put that back eventually.

I'm just glad she's living at home again and that, hopefully, she continues to recover quickly.

My only thoughts are that MD has to be held accountable--but as a juvenile--given that she had no criminal record before this and has received glowing reports from her teachers.

That doesn't make what MD did right -- it'll never be right, but it does indicate she is a good candidate for the juvenile system, which was designed to be more rehabilitative than the adult system.