MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[Prof]

In the 11/18 hearing it was testified to that a therapist came to her home, almost daily.

That is a fact.

W8nc was sitting beside me at the hearing. She heard it as well.

I do not doubt that you were there or spent the night before in your car as you have mentioned; I do not doubt your dedication or passion in seeing justice for Elizabeth


My point was that we do not know the time frame of this therapy, and I have seen the testimony (which might be considered a fact) reported in a number of different ways, none of which state the time frame for this daily therapy -- and some say "sometimes daily" some say " up to 2 hours daily" , Again my point was that none of them say from 2007 to 2009 she was in therapy OR for 6 weeks in 2007 she was in therapy -- all the different versions of David Cook quotes I saw in the paper referenced the therapy in past tense

Snipped:

"In 2007, Cook said, Bustamante attempted suicide, prompting a 10-day stay at the Mid-Missouri Mental Health Center. Follow-up treatment included a prescription for the anti-depressant Prozac and near-daily meetings with counselors. The treatment was primarily focused on her tendencies toward depression and self-mutilation — not her potential for homicidal tendencies, said Cook and Kurt Valentine, her juvenile court counsel."​

Columbia Tribune
BBM how long is follow up treatment?

David Cook got his information from reading notes

"David Cook, a Cole County juvenile officer, testified yesterday that, after reading notes and analysis by Bustamante’s therapists, he is not much closer to figuring out a motive for the alleged crime. “There may not be a definite diagnosis,” he said yesterday in the juvenile hearing."​

There are many versions of reports of the testimony, so until I can at least READ the testimony recorded by a court reporter and see the exact words of the juvenile officer in context, or see some other proof of her therapy I cannot consider other people's (reporters and all) interpretation a fact

 

[Bibliophile]

My point was that we do not know the time frame of this therapy, ... Again my point was that none of them say from 2007 to 2009 she was in therapy OR for 6 weeks in 2007 she was in therapy ...

You're correct, we don't know with certainty. And we may never know, even after a trial. However, I'd bet a few phone calls could provide us with enough information to make some fairly accurate assumptions.

1) If I recall correctly, Alyssa's grandparents had legal guardianship and that status may have allowed the grandchildren eligibility for Missouri HealthNet or Medicaid. This is no doubt a good thing since they are known for paying for services private insurance will not.

2) In the past (my frame of reference) the intensive, in-home program was only available (funded by contract) through the Dept of Mental Health or the Juvenile Office. It was expensive and therefore regarded as an extreme measure. It had a criteria that was used when the child was at risk from being removed from the home and/or when all other mental health services had failed.

I am sure a call to the Missouri Dept of Mental Health could verify the stipulations of the contract and eligibility for services.

If AB was receiving intensive services, she had been well known to the system prior to that time.

 

[Prof]

You're correct, we don't know with certainty. And we may never know, even after a trial. However, I'd bet a few phone calls could provide us with enough information to make some fairly accurate assumptions.

1) If I recall correctly, Alyssa's grandparents had legal guardianship and that status may have allowed the grandchildren eligibility for Missouri HealthNet or Medicaid. This is no doubt a good thing since they are known for paying for services private insurance will not.

2) In the past (my frame of reference) the intensive, in-home program was only available (funded by contract) through the Dept of Mental Health or the Juvenile Office. It was expensive and therefore regarded as an extreme measure. It had a criteria that was used when the child was at risk from being removed from the home and/or when all other mental health services had failed.

I am sure a call to the Missouri Dept of Mental Health could verify the stipulations of the contract and eligibility for services.

If AB was receiving intensive services, she had been well known to the system prior to that time.

Maybe I am reading this wrong, which is more than likely since it is 10 degrees here and I'm on my first cup of coffee, but are you suggesting that the state would give out personal or general information?

(BTW I'm not making any phone calls)

Anyway, I would bet the gm did try to get any funding available, just as she opted for a pd; I have to admit I am still flabergasted by her choice to not attend the hearing this week -- IMO whatever rationale she had, it sends a poor message to the children she IS still "responsible" for legally

 

[hoppyfrog]

Dear Posters:

Thanks for participating in this thread here at WS.

Please keep the following in mind:

1. We do not tolerate rudeness or attacks on other posters no matter how cleverly disguised they may be.

2. Keep the discussion on topic. I'll be monitoring this more closely since this thread has been so problematic.

3. Be respectful; no fighting.

4. Follow the TOS.

Thanks,

Hoppy
mod

 

[hoppyfrog]

Anyway, I would bet the gm did try to get any funding available, just as she opted for a pd; I have to admit I am still flabergasted by her choice to not attend the hearing this week -- IMO whatever rationale she had, it sends a poor message to the children she IS still "responsible" for legally

On the other hand, she may have been ill, the other children may have been ill and needed her care, or the other kids may still be so emotionally devastated by what happened that she needed to be with them. It's so difficult to know...

Hoppy

 

[LogicalMinds]

I don't think that they will give out any medical/mental health records to anyone, period

I have wondered about the "therapy" that Allyssa was supposedly recieving

2 hours daily?? did she have a session on the day she lured little Elizabeth to the woods??

I also wonder if the GM "counted" church activities, etc as "therapy"?? Maybe she felt the Mormon church was helping Allyssa??

I also think Allysa seems to have been pretty manipulative ..able to get good grades, not cause outward problems,

I do wonder if the therapists saw through this or if they were just counting on her as a "success" story?

 

[Prof]

I dont know how you got from what I said to what you said BBM. What exactly does that have to do with anything and strangely I have read through some of the past threads and anyone who mentions she should be put in a medical facility instead of prison is asked if they would like to have her come and live with them.

I dont understand that type of reasoning at all but ok.

JMO

I might be able to help you -- IMO "that type of reasoning" is called "Ad Baculum"
Although, IMO there is really a whole line of "reasoning" that goes with that particular statement, repeated by many time after time all over the internet: So it could also be considered IMO the Ad Populum, Ad Baculum, false dilemma because it seems to me that it is a popular appeal to fear in an either/or argument
Here is the typical line of "reasoning" I have seen:
AB has to be put in prison for the rest of her life (or in some comments -- executed) BECAUSE (here comes the "reasoning") 1. if AB is not in prison she will be set free into the world 2. if AB is not in prison she will come and live in everyone's neighborhood 3. if AB is not in prison she will kill again (someone close to you)

IMO and I can admit to being wrong

I would add that anyone who questions whether AB should get LWOP or not is automatically thought of as a "supporter of AB" and because of the evident either/or nature of things in this internet world anyone who questions LWOP for AB is assumed to be not a supporter of justice for Elizabeth and her family and -- a whole web of which I am not going to even try to understand

 

[Prof]

I agree Hoppy --I do not really know anything about the gm or AB-- I would go on to state that is so difficult to KNOW anything in this case, and I guess that is my theme in most of my posts --so I should shut up lol

 

[Prof]

I don't think that they will give out any medical/mental health records to anyone, period

I have wondered about the "therapy" that Allyssa was supposedly recieving

2 hours daily?? did she have a session on the day she lured little Elizabeth to the woods??

I also wonder if the GM "counted" church activities, etc as "therapy"?? Maybe she felt the Mormon church was helping Allyssa??

I also think Allysa seems to have been pretty manipulative ..able to get good grades, not cause outward problems,

I do wonder if the therapists saw through this or if they were just counting on her as a "success" story?

BBM -- yes, good points -- I was wondering where the daily therapy came in on Wednesday and Thursday of Elizabeths murder

I wondered if the church counted as therapy

And I wondered about the grades -- do we know what sort of grades she earned? I thought I heard that she lacked motivation and was bored at school, so I wonder how she could have earned "good" grades -- of course that might be because I am tough on grades

 

[vjlaw]

BBM -- yes, good points -- I was wondering where the daily therapy came in on Wednesday and Thursday of Elizabeths murder

I wondered if the church counted as therapy

And I wondered about the grades -- do we know what sort of grades she earned? I thought I heard that she lacked motivation and was bored at school, so I wonder how she could have earned "good" grades -- of course that might be because I am tough on grades

First of all, if the guardian was getting funds from the government, I doubt that they would allow money going to a church therapy. The investigation was done by juvenile authorities, not the gm, so she couldn't count anything as therapy that the juvenile authorities wouldn't accept as therapy.

 

[mia g]

I think there is some misunderstanding why many of us feel she should get LWOP...

Here is what we KNOW about her therapy..she was in a residental treatment center for (wasnt it fourteen days) Well I have had a child in RTC, and it is REQUIRED to get additional counseling. RTC is pretty extensive itself. She has been treated, and I really do not see her gma placing her in RTC and then NOT contuing counseling, maybe not counseling others feel was adequate, but therapy/counseling non the less..

So fact she has had THERAPY/ Counseling.... It did not work, she killed a girl.

I (and others) do not feel like taking a gamble of this girl munipulating the system some more, getting out in say 10,20, 30 years and killing another innocent person. Since apparently therapy has not work to this point, how could anyone be SURE it will help in the future?? That is my biggest question??? The only way to KNOW she is reahbilitated, IS to let her out and WAIT AND SEE if she kills again. I am not to worried about her coming to Texas and killing someone I love personally, but another death is too many. Elizabeths death was too many.

So until someone anyone can assure the public without a doubt 100% that AB is NOT a threat, she needs to stay locked up. Because NO ONE will ever be able to assure the public she is "well". When deciding the outcome of this all we truly have to go on is her PAST..In ABs past we KNOW she has planned to murder... Lured a girl to the woods and strangled, cut and stabbed her.. THOSE are facts, we know she is capable of it... What we do not KNOW is if she is capable of being rehabilitated... and many of us do not see a reason to take the chance with another innocent life.

I will go one step farther, if one of my beloved children were capable of killing another human I would want him or her locked up for life also!!! I would love them, and visit them, but they do not deserve to walk around and lead life while another fmaily has to bury and live without whoever they killed. If in this hypothetical situation I begin to feel they were rehabilitated, I would still feel they needed to do their time, and they could help inside the prison where they belonged..

IMHO if one human is capable of killing another(accept in self defense) they do not deserve to live a free life. I do not care what their age maybe.

I do not have a problem with anyone that has more compassion for AB then I and others do. I respect others opinion, and it is apparent there are atleast two sides to these, and niether side is gonna budge on how they feel..

 

[dr dona]

I'm a Pediatrician and must admit that I am really concerned when a child or adolescent wants to kill to see what it feels like. With this
accused teen and the young man who killed his younger brother the lack of remorse or any identification with their young victims is a red flag.
In freudian terms they have no superego. I don't feel they can be rehabilitated- Its gone too far. I hate to think about putting these teens in prison for life but sentencing them as juveniles ( prison till age 21 ) isn't a good idea. Lack of remorse for others is difficult to address in any forms of psycotherapy.

 

[steph572]

I think there is some misunderstanding why many of us feel she should get LWOP...

Here is what we KNOW about her therapy..she was in a residental treatment center for (wasnt it fourteen days) Well I have had a child in RTC, and it is REQUIRED to get additional counseling. RTC is pretty extensive itself. She has been treated, and I really do not see her gma placing her in RTC and then NOT contuing counseling, maybe not counseling others feel was adequate, but therapy/counseling non the less..

So fact she has had THERAPY/ Counseling.... It did not work, she killed a girl.

I (and others) do not feel like taking a gamble of this girl munipulating the system some more, getting out in say 10,20, 30 years and killing another innocent person. Since apparently therapy has not work to this point, how could anyone be SURE it will help in the future?? That is my biggest question??? The only way to KNOW she is reahbilitated, IS to let her out and WAIT AND SEE if she kills again. I am not to worried about her coming to Texas and killing someone I love personally, but another death is too many. Elizabeths death was too many.

So until someone anyone can assure the public without a doubt 100% that AB is NOT a threat, she needs to stay locked up. Because NO ONE will ever be able to assure the public she is "well". When deciding the outcome of this all we truly have to go on is her PAST..In ABs past we KNOW she has planned to murder... Lured a girl to the woods and strangled, cut and stabbed her.. THOSE are facts, we know she is capable of it... What we do not KNOW is if she is capable of being rehabilitated... and many of us do not see a reason to take the chance with another innocent life.

I will go one step farther, if one of my beloved children were capable of killing another human I would want him or her locked up for life also!!! I would love them, and visit them, but they do not deserve to walk around and lead life while another fmaily has to bury and live without whoever they killed. If in this hypothetical situation I begin to feel they were rehabilitated, I would still feel they needed to do their time, and they could help inside the prison where they belonged..

IMHO if one human is capable of killing another(accept in self defense) they do not deserve to live a free life. I do not care what their age maybe.

I do not have a problem with anyone that has more compassion for AB then I and others do. I respect others opinion, and it is apparent there are atleast two sides to these, and niether side is gonna budge on how they feel..

Thanks mia g. You explained my feelings beautifully. In addition to not wanting to gamble on whether or not she can be or has been rehabilitated, I believe that there is also the justice issue. Regardless of whether or not she is ever successfully rehabilitated, Elizabeth will remain dead and her family will continue to endure that pain and loss for the rest of their lives. In my mind I can't reconcile the life of Elizabeth only being worth 10, 20, or even 30 years of Alyssa's life whether it be in prison or a mental institution. Alive is alive, no matter where you are.

I honestly don't care where they keep her locked up (as long as they have good security) and I don't care whether or not they try to "fix" her or study her while she's there. I just want her punishment to last as long as the damage she has done. For those that think she shouldn't be held as accountable because of personality disorders, mental defects or disease, a prozac rx, whatever... Fine, start her off in a high-security mental institution. Once you've determined she's all better and can be returned to society, then send her arse to prison to begin her punishment.

 

[mominjc]

A few things -

First I want to thank all of the posters for some really interesting reading!

Second I want to welcome all new posters and any "OLD" posters back (when they come back)....you know who you are! LOL

Third - does anyone know if the court reported transcripts from the Grand Jury indictment is available to the public? I know MO has Sunshine laws - as we have sunshine requests alot at my work; however, does the sunshine law apply to court records and could you post the link to the RSMo (state statute) if you know the answer. TIA

 

[Bibliophile]

Maybe I am reading this wrong, which is more than likely since it is 10 degrees here and I'm on my first cup of coffee, but are you suggesting that the state would give out personal or general information?

I'm suggesting that the state would release general information about the Intensive Therapy Program.

If it is still the same as when I had knowledge of it, in order for Alyssa (or anyone) to meet eligibility she had to be in imminent risk of removal of the home. This can be because of abuse or because of the child's behavior. My guess is with Alyssa, it was the latter.

As I mentioned before, the very fact that she was or had participated in this program suggests that she received psychological services elsewhere and they were not successful. You can't just call and say, "Gee whiz, I'd like to try this for my child." There can be a long waiting list (though there are no waiting lists with Children's Services, the child is just removed) and 99% of the time there is a treatment history.

 

[Bibliophile]

Information about the Intensive In-Home Services --

http://www.dss.mo.gov/cd/iis.htm

Annual Reports -

http://www.dss.mo.gov/re/iisar.htm

Child Welfare Manual

http://www.dss.mo.gov/cd/info/cwmanual/section2/ch4/sec2ch4attachm.htm

 

[Bibliophile]

Here is what we KNOW about her therapy..she was in a residental treatment center for (wasnt it fourteen days) Well I have had a child in RTC, and it is REQUIRED to get additional counseling.

I agree she no doubt had therapy after her hospitalization. An educated guess would tell me she's been in therapy more often than not in the last two years, culminating in intensive in-home services (which lasts 6 to 8 weeks, if I recall correctly).

This, coupled with reports of her being eligible for the gifted program and the means/manner surrounding the murder, makes me want her to be locked up a very, very long time.

 

[mia g]

Here is the FIRST eveidence we have she made good grades(was intelligent) is from a newspaper account..

http://newstribune.com/articles/2005/06/14/community/0614050041.txt

President's Award for

Educational Excellence

This award was started to help students achieve academically by rewarding them.

Only students in the exit grade are eligible for this award.

They must earn a 3.5 or better grade point average and achieve in the 85th percentile or higher in math or reading on a standardized test.

Southwest - Alyssa Bustamante
There are other students mentioned in the article but I edited out their names, but the link gives the whole article.

 

[Bibliophile]

In going back and reviewing some of the news reports, I ran across this. I knew that the explanations for the two graves were withheld. I thought perhaps the prosecution was withholding it and I was incorrect. I think this may be noteworthy.

" ... repeated objections by Bustamante's juvenile justice attorney prevented the police officer from explaining why two holes were dug. Cole County prosecutor Mark Richardson also has declined to elaborate."
​

Link to entire news story here

 

[Bibliophile]

A couple of other points for consideration -

When any juvenile is detained, a complete psycho-social evaluation is done. The history and the testimony given in court no doubt came from this eval. If so, it would be public record.

Cole County, like many other Missouri counties, also has what is called a "intensive supervision" program for juvenile offenders. Although any juvenile record will not be made public, it is possible that the therapy and the almost "daily" contact that was reported was a result of participation in this program.

With intensive supervision, a participant would receive almost daily in-home therapy, group therapy, and contact, monitoring and surveillance at school.