MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[akashana]

Mia G, I agree. (hey that rhymes...)

Having lived in JC for a good deal of my life, I have naturally encountered ex-convicts.

For those who don't know, the main maximum security prison for this state was in downtown JC, and only closed a few years ago. This is/was a huge stone walled complex within a few blocks of the state capital building. Also in the downtown area are many office buildings housing various state agencies. When I was working for the state, back in the 70/80's, some prisoners participated in work-release programs. These prisoners, nearing the end of their sentences, would be transported by bus to the offices to work in state jobs during the day, (or other businesses in town), and returned to the prison at 5pm. Some would then continue in the same jobs after being paroled. Also, low-risk prisoners, or trustees, would make up the cleaning crews who came into some of the office buildings in the early evenings, always fairly well guarded.

There were a number of other prisons in this immediate area back then....maybe still are, I was away in another state for 20 years....including a women's prison, a minimum security facility, and a work-farm facility. Some percentage of the prisoners settled in JC after release, or at least stayed a few years. So most folks who lived in JC back then knew at least one or two ex-cons.

Anyway, I digress. Several of the ex-convicts I knew then told me that people will return to prison because it's basically a "no-fail" life. In the "outside" world, if you are lousy at your job, or too lazy to work, you end up homeless and starving. In prison...NOT. They still feed you and house you, regardless. In prison, if you don't know what you're good at, or enjoy, as an occupation, they give you tests to help you decide. They move you from kitchen duty to the carpentry shop, to other jobs, until you find a job you're willing/able to do. They provide training and education, if you qualify.

In prison, you don't have to pay bills, shop for groceries, do your own laundry, make choices, etc. All those life chores are taken care of for you. Anyone who lacked the life-skills to take care of those sorts of details COULD have an easier time IN prison than out, provided they stayed out of the gangs, violence, trouble that, of course, is also available inside a prison. If you were able to resign yourself to the lack of freedom, or could rationalize that being fed, housed, clothed w/o freedom to travel, have a family, etc, was better than possibly/probably failing miserably at life outside, WITH freedom, then you'd be happy to stay in, or return to, prison life.

Alyssa is only 15, She hasn't had time to develop life-skills, such as finding and keeping a job, running her own household, etc. I don't know if our penal system has a program to teach those skills or not. I have to wonder if there is any correlation between age at arrest, and recidivism, that would indicate a need for training of that kind.

I knew one ex-con who was incarcerated from age 16 till 29. He didn't know how to unclog a shower drain or change a tire or get a home telephone. Without an outside support system, he'd have been back inside in a matter of months. He later alienated his entire support system and DID end up back in prison after a few years. He was on Danni's extensive list posted on thread 12 or 13.

Relating this to Alyssa, first, she needs to serve enough time to actually be punished for what she did. Second, she should never be released until there is a VERY high degree of certainty that she would never hurt another person again. (she now KNOWS what it feels like to kill someone, right? Doesn't need to wonder anymore.) And third, she shouldn't be released without a support system in place to help her through the ins and outs of outside life.

All the above is my experience and or opinion.

W8nC, that was a wonderful post addressing the issues faced by the prison population, both past and present. It's clear that you see the issue from all sides.

 

[Csquare]

I have a question here. Isn't psychology based off of therory? Isn't therory based off of opinion? Therefore if it is based on opinon that can't make it factual right? I guess what I am looking for is that no one psychologist diagnosis would be 100% correct? There have been people saying that AB deserves to have the best thearapy. Can anyone define BEST? IMHO best is a subjective word which w/o some type of conest. ie Super Bowl, World Series, can't be decided.

 

[Bibliophile]

I have a question here. Isn't psychology based off of therory? Isn't therory based off of opinion? Therefore if it is based on opinon that can't make it factual right?

Yes and no. And if that's not enough to make you crazy, there are people who disagree on the definition of the term theory. In general, a theory is a set of facts or circumstances that are generally acceptable that help to explain a condition or occurrence.

There will always be exceptions and anecdotes to well accepted or established theories (i.e. we know seat belts save lives, but we've heard about those cases where people believe they were saved by not wearing them). The key in science, medicine or psychology is to look at the amount and quality of the evidence.

Without going into boring scientific detail, you want to look at who did the study, how it was conducted, how many subjects or cases and was the study replicated. If Jane Doe conducts a well done study announcing an effective cure for a disease, people will pay attention. But if Sue Smith follows it with a larger study and the results indicate the same cure - people will begin to get excited. When further studies back up both of those, after a period of time many will begin to look upon the theory as fact and it will become a well established idea in that respective community.

Many medical and graduate schools focus on what is termed as "evidence based" practices -- that is, training their practitioners on what has been proven as most effective in the studies. I think in some ways psychology has more catching up to do in this area, probably because mental illnesses has historically been looked upon (& still is) as a character defect and also because the human brain is much more complicated in both structure and function than any other part of the human body.

I have a special interest in neurobiology/psychology and I truly believe that one day they will discover all mental illnesses have a physical basis or root cause. For example, there is a professor at the Univ. of Chicago named Jean Decety who has studied adolescents and behavior and have found differences in the brains of conduct disordered patients.

How this all relates to Alyssa???? Could she have received better treatment??? IMO, Alyssa probably received as good as it gets given the area and the available resources. Had her grandparents or any of the therapists known that she had propensity to commit murder, they no doubt would have done more as any loving, caring human would have.

If they had been in a location with a famous university and hospitals renowned for the adolescent psychology, perhaps that would have made a difference --- but maybe not. I've said it before - its possible that the science simply is not there yet, no matter who the doctor is.

Inwardly, we all desperately hope we can pinpoint a "cause" for this -- maybe it was her messed up parents, our lax society, medications, illegal drugs, violent media, or inadequate therapy - or all the above in a perfect storm at the wrong moment.

We care, therefore we want a reason we can change. Its very difficult to accept it may be beyond our current understanding.

 

[danni]

Yes and no. And if that's not enough to make you crazy, there are people who disagree on the definition of the term theory. In general, a theory is a set of facts or circumstances that are generally acceptable that help to explain a condition or occurrence.

There will always be exceptions and anecdotes to well accepted or established theories (i.e. we know seat belts save lives, but we've heard about those cases where people believe they were saved by not wearing them). The key in science, medicine or psychology is to look at the amount and quality of the evidence.

Without going into boring scientific detail, you want to look at who did the study, how it was conducted, how many subjects or cases and was the study replicated. If Jane Doe conducts a well done study announcing an effective cure for a disease, people will pay attention. But if Sue Smith follows it with a larger study and the results indicate the same cure - people will begin to get excited. When further studies back up both of those, after a period of time many will begin to look upon the theory as fact and it will become a well established idea in that respective community.

Many medical and graduate schools focus on what is termed as "evidence based" practices -- that is, training their practitioners on what has been proven as most effective in the studies. I think in some ways psychology has more catching up to do in this area, probably because mental illnesses has historically been looked upon (& still is) as a character defect and also because the human brain is much more complicated in both structure and function than any other part of the human body.

I have a special interest in neurobiology/psychology and I truly believe that one day they will discover all mental illnesses have a physical basis or root cause. For example, there is a professor at the Univ. of Chicago named Jean Decety who has studied adolescents and behavior and have found differences in the brains of conduct disordered patients.

How this all relates to Alyssa???? Could she have received better treatment??? IMO, Alyssa probably received as good as it gets given the area and the available resources. Had her grandparents or any of the therapists known that she had propensity to commit murder, they no doubt would have done more as any loving, caring human would have.

If they had been in a location with a famous university and hospitals renowned for the adolescent psychology, perhaps that would have made a difference --- but maybe not. I've said it before - its possible that the science simply is not there yet, no matter who the doctor is.

Inwardly, we all desperately hope we can pinpoint a "cause" for this -- maybe it was her messed up parents, our lax society, medications, illegal drugs, violent media, or inadequate therapy - or all the above in a perfect storm at the wrong moment.

We care, therefore we want a reason we can change. Its very difficult to accept it may be beyond our current understanding.

last sent. BBM.
Great post.
Which leads me to a question, if we may never know or understand WHY (a reason) she and so many like her have done what they did then how are we to understand what it is going to take to get her rehabilitated?
Take cancer for instance, we have no magic cure for it, yet we have medications and therapy that removes it from the body. But wait, eventhough a person may be cancer free for YEARS, all of a sudden it can come back and it can take the life of the patient. There are tests to find cancer so it can be treated again, what if any are tests for mental illness/disorders? How do we determine if a person is rehabilitated? How do we know if people that do these things will or won't become "ill" again years down the road? If she gets rehabilitated what KEEPS her rehabilitated?

 

[JLMcKenna83]

last sent. Bbm.
Great post.
Which leads me to a question, if we may never know or understand why (a reason) she and so many like her have done what they did then how are we to understand what it is going to take to get her rehabilitated?
Take cancer for instance, we have no magic cure for it, yet we have medications and therapy that removes it from the body. But wait, eventhough a person may be cancer free for years, all of a sudden it can come back and it can take the life of the patient. There are tests to find cancer so it can be treated again, what if any are tests for mental illness/disorders? How do we determine if a person is rehabilitated? How do we know if people that do these things will or won't become "ill" again years down the road? If she gets rehabilitated what keeps her rehabilitated?

ita..

 

[2shihtzus]

I have been reading through and catching up on everyone's posts.
There have been questions as to when the judge will make the ruling pertaining to AB's immediate hospitalization - I believe this would be protected medical information and if the judge did agree to send her to the hospital, this probably will not come out until the trial, if there is one.

The following statements are my own opinion as someone who has a family member with a mental illness.

I do not believe jail is the correct place for AB. However, I also believe that putting her in a hospital to serve her sentence gives her more freedoms than a murderer deserves. Ultimately, I think people (myself included) have a hard time wrapping their heads around the fact that it appears that she had such a disregard for life - her own and Elizabeth's. If she had been 10 or even 5 years older, would people be on such total opposite sides of the fence? I believe this is where empathy and sympathy comes in, and her age is what garners both.

As far as AB being medicated, having intense therapy, etc. The diagnosis and medication she was given is only as good as the thoughts and feelings she chose to share with her therapists and psychiatrists. If she didn't trust her therapist or psychiatrist (in my opinion and experience those who need the help the most don't always trust these providers and don't share every intimate detail) because she thought she might get taken away from her grandparents, she would not have shared every thought or feeling she may have had. The same holds true for the grandparents. If they thought she would be removed from the home (and perhaps along with her brothers and half sister) and feared what may happen to her if she did not have the protection and love of her family, they too may have withheld things as well.

As far as her statement that she killed Elizabeth 'just to see what it felt like', I'm not so sure I'm buying that excuse. Like I said above, this is my own opinion based on my experience having a family member with mental illness. It may be true, and it may not be true. Maybe the truth is that Napoleon popped out of her history book and told her to do it. Yes, it sounds insane. However, if she feared going back to the hospital or being removed from the comfort of her own home and family, she may have given a "just because" excuse because she feared the consequences of a more irrational reason.
Frankly, people who are mentally ill can be irrational, especially if not on the proper medication for their illness. Even people who are completely sane can have bouts of irrationality.

 

[LogicalMinds]

There has been no real "diagnosis" of "what" Allyssa has
no one ever said she was bipolar or has borderline or schiophrenic

she was depressed...tried suicide...and was a "cutter" ..with a "dark side"

no evidence that "Napolean" popped out...no evidence of being schizophrenic at all that I have seen...and I am sure that they would be saying that if it there was any indication

even "bipolar">> there are lots of people who are bi-polar and live with it, some famous people are bipolar...they take their meds...it is more of a chemical imbalance...one missing woman, an RN, is supposedly "bi-polar" (Toni Sharpless) yet another family is using that as an excuse as to why an unfit mother like "Tina" would do what she did with her baby Shannon (baby in a box case)

I think a lot of this is just excuses..either people are totally and dangerously "mentally ill" and then they need to be locked up for their safety and safety of others, or else they are just part of the population who suffer from some form of mental illness but are also criminals...and need to go to prison as a criminal

Sociopathy...or whatever you want to call it.....is NOT a chemical imbalance...it is apparently a deep seated "personality disorder"...that is hard to treat or may be untreatable

it is sort of like ...just there...just as some people are color blind and just born that way

Wht does bother me is the double standard that wants us to feel sorry for these people and give them a "chance" with NO way to guarantee that they won't do the same thing or worse when they are out

:boohoo::boohoo:

just too dangerous IMHO...such a risk

as for even thinking of trying Allysa as a juvenile?? At 21 she would pop out, free and clear without even a record...no thanks

 

[danni]

There has been no real "diagnosis" of "what" Allyssa has
no one ever said she was bipolar or has borderline or schiophrenic

she was depressed...tried suicide...and was a "cutter" ..with a "dark side"

no evidence that "Napolean" popped out...no evidence of being schizophrenic at all that I have seen...and I am sure that they would be saying that if it there was any indication

even "bipolar">> there are lots of people who are bi-polar and live with it, some famous people are bipolar...they take their meds...it is more of a chemical imbalance...one missing woman, an RN, is supposedly "bi-polar" (Toni Sharpless) yet another family is using that as an excuse as to why an unfit mother like "Tina" would do what she did with her baby Shannon (baby in a box case)

I think a lot of this is just excuses..either people are totally and dangerously "mentally ill" and then they need to be locked up for their safety and safety of others, or else they are just part of the population who suffer from some form of mental illness but are also criminals...and need to go to prison as a criminal

Sociopathy...or whatever you want to call it.....is NOT a chemical imbalance...it is apparently a deep seated "personality disorder"...that is hard to treat or may be untreatable

it is sort of like ...just there...just as some people are color blind and just born that way

Wht does bother me is the double standard that wants us to feel sorry for these people and give them a "chance" with NO way to guarantee that they won't do the same thing or worse when they are out

:boohoo::boohoo:

just too dangerous IMHO...such a risk

as for even thinking of trying Allysa as a juvenile?? At 21 she would pop out, free and clear without even a record...no thanks

last sent. BBM!
But then you are robbing Alyssa of her life, college, children, family. You don't think we should coddle her and hold her and make everything ok until she is 21 and then let her out into the world as if nothing happened?
</sarcasim>

I tottally agree with everything you said.
I have a cousin who is bipolor, skitzofrenic, and ocd, he was hospitalized prior to them getting his meds right, yet he has never killed anyone!
When I think of a hospital/medical inst. I think of ill people, not people that think they are ill or that want people to think they are ill to get what they want when they want it!

 

[steph572]

In the local paper this morning someone has started a petition titled Free Alyssa Bustamante at the petitionspot. Someone even had the gall to sign it as if they were Elizabeth. In response to that I started one titled Justice For Elizabeth. I am hoping Elizabeth's supporters totally annihilate the other one.

 

[akashana]

IMHO, she is classic borderline. I have had the misfortune to have had extensive dealings with borderlines both personally and professionally. They can be quite deceptive and manipulative. You see what they want you to see until they have a major breakdown and lose all control. Borderlines are the saddest cases to me. They create all of their own misery, and some even seem to grasp this, yet are unable to change the behaviors that bring on the alienation and trauma.

At least the schizophrenics have their inner world to turn to. The borderlines just keep getting themselves ostracized in this one. That said, I think that Alyssa should live out her days in a maximum security hospital facility.

 

[2shihtzus]

There has been no real "diagnosis" of "what" Allyssa has
no one ever said she was bipolar or has borderline or schiophrenic

she was depressed...tried suicide...and was a "cutter" ..with a "dark side"

no evidence that "Napolean" popped out...no evidence of being schizophrenic at all that I have seen...and I am sure that they would be saying that if it there was any indication

There is a diagnosis if she was prescribed medication and supposedly had daily therapy. She would have been diagnosed during the hospitalization following her suicide attempt, if not sooner.

I did not state that there was any evidence that Napoleon popped out of her book. It was merely a hypothetical statement based on my opinion and personal experiences with the mentally ill that perhaps she was not completely forthcoming as to her reasoning for killing Elizabeth.

There are born sociopaths, sociopaths that are a product of their environment and sociopaths as a result of a traumatic event. Each suffers an imbalance in the brain that creates/facilitates the antisocial behavior.

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

IMO, the petitions are only for shock value & pranks.
There are too many bored kids playing on the net.

JMO.

 

[LadyBug99]

If there was to be a plea deal in this case and we (the public) never know the details of murder or events leading up to it, would Elizabeth's family have anyway to find those details out? TIA!

 

[vjlaw]

If there was to be a plea deal in this case and we (the public) never know the details of murder or events leading up to it, would Elizabeth's family have anyway to find those details out? TIA!

I believe Elizabeth's family have at least a little of the details. Mr. Couty, the director of the Prenger Center said in a news conference right after her detainment with juvenile authorities that he spoke with Elizabeth's family about how this may have happened. iirc

 

[LadyRider]

I would think Elizabeth's family knows many of the details surrounding her death. I am sure they are still wanting answers from AB that would give them possibly some closure. I don't think they will ever get that from AB or any member of her family, and/or those that are currently watching or treating AB. I do hope that some day, some one, will spend time with Elizabeth's mother and write her story and the facts as she has been told. We hear of books deals in the works for AB's friends, what do they have to gain? NOTHING, except some money. But for Elizabeth's mother it would be so much more in my opinion.

 

[PAXIMUS]

If there was to be a plea deal in this case and we (the public) never know the details of murder or events leading up to it, would Elizabeth's family have anyway to find those details out? TIA!

Yes because the state represents the Olten family in this case and would let them know any details of a plea agreement with the defense including any statements made by AB.

 

[Csquare]

I spoke to a local attorney here in town today. He told me that a judge does not have a time contraint on ruling on a motion. It was his understand that the motion to move AB to a mental facility was filed incorrectly and her PD has not re-filed the proper paperwork. He also told me the PD technically only has 10 days from the arraignment to file that motion. Just passing along what I was told by a prominent attorney familiar with the case.

 

[Prof]

Yes because the state represents the Olten family in this case and would let them know any details of a plea agreement with the defense including any statements made by AB.

PAX? Might it be possible, since AB is now considered an adult in MO Court that IF there is a plea deal, the details would be public info? Or is that simply up to the prosecutor?

As an example, when Joel Courtney took a plea in the Brooke Wilberger case here, we found out all of the details -- unfortunately

 

[W8nC]

PAX? Might it be possible, since AB is now considered an adult in MO Court that IF there is a plea deal, the details would be public info? Or is that simply up to the prosecutor?

As an example, when Joel Courtney took a plea in the Brooke Wilberger case here, we found out all of the details -- unfortunately

Brooke Wilberger was Mormon too, wasn't she?

 

[Prof]

Yes, but she wasn't a murderer like AB; she was a freshman at BYU just visiting an older sister on a break in a small college town in Oregon -- her family wanted her killer to take a plea so they could recover her body; he refused at first

(he's a drug addict, serial kidnapper, and murderer)

I think the deal he finally made will allow him to serve his term out in New Mexico (where he had abducted and raped another girl) near his wife and kids

I don't know if there will be a plea in the AB case (I am thinking there won't be-- just a hunch) -- the cases are quite different, but as soon as the plea deal was done, the press had all of the details except for the exact location of Brooke as it took LE a week for recovery