My crazy theory...

[fr brown]

I have never read anything saying the police think he slept through the night? Have you? Maybe I don't remember it. But there is evidence that shows he didn't sleep through the night. Such as his robe etc. IMO there is NO way he slept through it. JR was and is always in control of that family. BR would have never done the Dr Phil show without his dad telling him to. How else did he know where to "find" her? He knew where she was because he put her there. I think originally he was going to put her outside but PR probably couldn't take it. Especially with it so cold. I think that is why the ransom note was written the way it was. And then at the last minute they couldn't put her outside so hid her in the basement.

Steve Thomas in JonBenet says John slept through the night. Kolar thought so as well until sometime after his AMA.

I suspect Kolar was influenced by James Fitzgerald who may have convinced him John was responsible for language in the note.

 

[fr brown]

Thomas thinks John found the body during the time Arndt lost sight of him 10, 11ish. Arndt said his demeanor was different when he showed up again. So that's how he knew where to look when he was told to search the house.

 

[Swirlz]

So for emphasis that is two separate pairs of fecally stained pants found in JonBenet's bedroom a pair on her bathroom floor and another on the bedroom floor.

So, if I'm understanding right, you're suggesting the boy pajama bottoms Kolar refers to in his book are a separate pair from the ones Patsy was asked about?

 

[spivey]

One of my theories is that John planned to put the body in the suitcase and hoist it out the basement window during the time he went missing for 60-90 minutes. When he realized it wouldn't work for whatever reason, he improvised and staged the body in the basement. This could explain why there was both a ransom note and
the body in the same house.

 

[fr brown]

So, if I'm understanding right, you're suggesting the boy pajama bottoms Kolar refers to in his book are a separate pair from the ones Patsy was asked about?

Not addressed to me, I realize, but in the interest of accuracy, there was a pair of Burke's longjohns or something hanging in the bathroom. Nothing about them being stained, that I can recall.

Best to read the transcripts and check the tv program.

 

[kaykay543]

Thomas thinks John found the body during the time Arndt lost sight of him 10, 11ish. Arndt said his demeanor was different when he showed up again. So that's how he knew where to look when he was told to search the house.

I think ST had so much tunnel vision that PR did it that he couldn't see anything else. JR robe was found in his study. Which makes no sense. Not to mention the seminal fluid found on it. And the fibers found on JBR. Also the whole story of JR reading the ransom note in his underwear is totally false. No way he could have got dressed that fast and be that put together in the few minutes it took the police to get there.

I have never felt Kolar was that well versed in this case. If you look at his reddit he seems to not be familiar with much of the pertinent information.

I think back then there was a lot of hidden bias. Surely a well educated rich white man couldn't have done this to his daughter. I think especially for men it is harder to picture JR as the abuser. I don't mean that as a slight to men. Just that you have to take into consideration the what life was like during this time. Especially back then incest was not discussed nearly as much as it is now.

ST theory that JR found her during that hour is just that - a theory. Arndt is the only one that thought JR did it. And she was the only one there when he "found" her.

IMO JR would have NEVER covered for PR had she been the one to kill her. But PR would have covered for JR without a doubt. And IMO she did. Many think PR herself (and her sisters) were sexually abused in their youth. IF that is true then she has a long history of keeping secrets about incest. That would have made her even easier for JR to manipulate. For people like this it becomes their "normal".

 

[fr brown]

I think ST had so much tunnel vision that PR did it that he couldn't see anything else. JR robe was found in his study. Which makes no sense. Not to mention the seminal fluid found on it. And the fibers found on JBR. Also the whole story of JR reading the ransom note in his underwear is totally false. No way he could have got dressed that fast and be that put together in the few minutes it took the police to get there.

I have never felt Kolar was that well versed in this case. If you look at his reddit he seems to not be familiar with much of the pertinent information.

I think back then there was a lot of hidden bias. Surely a well educated rich white man couldn't have done this to his daughter. I think especially for men it is harder to picture JR as the abuser. I don't mean that as a slight to men. Just that you have to take into consideration the what life was like during this time. Especially back then incest was not discussed nearly as much as it is now.

ST theory that JR found her during that hour is just that - a theory. Arndt is the only one that thought JR did it. And she was the only one there when he "found" her.

IMO JR would have NEVER covered for PR had she been the one to kill her. But PR would have covered for JR without a doubt. And IMO she did. Many think PR herself (and her sisters) were sexually abused in their youth. IF that is true then she has a long history of keeping secrets about incest. That would have made her even easier for JR to manipulate. For people like this it becomes their "normal".

You get to John's bathroom through his 3rd floor study, I believe. There was no seminal fluid on his bathrobe that I remember reading about.

 

[fr brown]

Not addressed to me, I realize, but in the interest of accuracy, there was a pair of Burke's longjohns or something hanging in the bathroom. Nothing about them being stained, that I can recall.

Best to read the transcripts and check the tv program.

I'm not finding this in the transcripts right now, but don't really have time to look....

 

[UKGuy]

So, if I'm understanding right, you're suggesting the boy pajama bottoms Kolar refers to in his book are a separate pair from the ones Patsy was asked about?

Swirlz,

Yes, absolutely. This is why I posted excerpts from Patsy's interviews.


For clarity I'll rephrase what was observed in JonBenet's bedroom.

Lying on JonBenet's bedroom floor was a pair of fecally stained pajama bottoms.

Lying on JonBenet's bathroom floor was a pair of JonBenet's pants and underwear described as fecally stained.

Lying on JonBenet's spare bed were the black velvet pants she wore to the White's party.

The pajama bottoms were later described as too big for JonBenet and possibly belonged to Burke?

There has been no detail released regarding the color of these pajama bottoms!

Knowing the color would allow cross reference with the pajama bottoms worn by Burke in the Christmas Morning photographs, and presumably again on Christmas Day night?

.

 

[Swirlz]

But there wasn't another pair of pants on the list of items that were removed from the home and John and Patsy weren't asked about any boys pajama bottoms and they don't appear in any crime scene photo.

Is it possible the boy's longjohns which were obviously Burke's because they had a fly that the body was found in and the pair of pants Patsy was asked about that had stains were mixed up by Kolar for his book? Any thoughts on this?

 

[kaykay543]

You get to John's bathroom through his 3rd floor study, I believe. There was no seminal fluid on his bathrobe that I remember reading about.

Yes it was found on his robe. Its in several posts here on websleuths but heres a link to the paper. Exhibit 66 seminal fluid on JR robe. I am pretty sure this paper is posted on here too but I can't find it. I do remember the picture showing his robe next to a desk on the floor. I think I used the wrong word. It was his home office not a study. Odd place to change clothes IMO.

CBI Serology Testing 3 Completed January 29, 1997

 

[UKGuy]

But there wasn't another pair of pants on the list of items that were removed from the home and John and Patsy weren't asked about any boys pajama bottoms and they don't appear in any crime scene photo.

Is it possible the boy's longjohns which were obviously Burke's because they had a fly that the body was found in and the pair of pants Patsy was asked about that had stains were mixed up by Kolar for his book? Any thoughts on this?

Swirlz,
There was many items of clothing removed from the house too much to list here.

A selection might be:
12-27-1996 BPD Search Warrant, Excerpt

(1) girls underwear (56BAH)
(1) girls underwear (61BAH)
(1) girls underwear (62BAH)
five pair girls underwear (76BAH)
two pair girls underwear (77BAH)
black trousers (67BAB)
blue sweatpants (34BAH)
black and white tights (56BAB)
childs underwear (57BAB)
childs underwear (58BAB)
childs underwear (59BAB)
black tights (62BAB)

There were many relevant subjects that John and Patsy were not asked about, notwithstanding their desire not to answer any if possible.

Is it possible the boy's longjohns which were obviously Burke's because they had a fly that the body was found in and the pair of pants Patsy was asked about that had stains were mixed up by Kolar for his book? Any thoughts on this?

I doubt this as the pants Patsy was questioned about she immediately recognized as belonging to JonBenet, these were a plurality of pants, i.e. underwear and black pants.

When discussing the pajama bottoms Kolar is referencing a CSI report and the pajama bottoms are in the singular, not the plural as above and the actual locations in JonBenet's bedroom are separated in space.

Here is Kolar's opinion:
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, pages 370 - 371

There were other police reports in the files that documented what I thought could be viewed as related behavior. CSIs had written about finding a pair of pajama bottoms in JonBenét’s bedroom that contained fecal material. They were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke.

Additionally, a box of candy located in her bedroom had also been observed to be smeared with feces. Both of these discoveries had been made during the processing of the crime scene during the execution of search warrants following the discovery of JonBenét’s body.

I wondered whether fecal material observed in pajamas thought to belong to Burke, and smeared on the box of candy in his sister’s bedroom, could have been related to the symptoms of scatological behavior associated with SBP. I also contemplated the reasons why a box of JonBenét’s candy would have been smeared with human excrement.

As noted previously, Linda Hoffman-Pugh had also mentioned finding fecal material in JonBenét’s bed sheets. It raised the question as to who may have been responsible for the deposit of that material in her bed – had it been JonBenét or was it Burke?

Even if you ignore the CSI opinion that the pajama bottoms were likely Burke's you still have a homicide crime-scene containing many fecally stained items of clothing.

Also the above does not include Holly Smith's account:
Fox 31 News, Nov 13, 2006

Holly Smith remembers walking up the steps to the Ramsey home: the big candy canes more jarring than festive considering the circumstances. The house was lavishly decorated. Smith recalls, "It was big and it was meandering and it was schmanzy fancy." It was the third day of the investigation into the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. Smith was head of the Boulder County Sexual Abuse team and has been called into the investigation, as she says, "to consult about some of the dynamics and some of the things people suspected might be going on with this case."

She started, as always, with a visit to the child’s bedroom. "That's a really important piece of getting a real feel for a family," Smith explains. With portfolio pictures galore and closets full of JonBenet’s elaborate pageant outfits, Smith says she had a hard time getting a feel for who the little girl really was, even in her bedroom. She recalls, "I just had a sense the type of decor in her bedroom was not really a child's decor." One poignant find that she does recall was a red satin box with what looked like JonBenet’s secret stash of candy.

She found something else in the room, however, which raised an immediate red flag. Smith says most of the panties in JonBenet’s dresser drawers had been soiled with fecal material. "There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith. JonBenet also had a history of bedwetting. While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions. "It's very different for every child, but when you have a child that's had this problem and it's pretty chronic for that child, and in addition you know some sort of physical evidence or trauma or an allegation, you put all those little pieces together and it just goes in your head," she says.

Smith adds, "There was an indication of trauma in the vaginal area." The coroner's autopsy discovered evidence investigators say indicates JonBenet suffered vaginal trauma the night she was murdered. However the autopsy report also describes evidence of possible prior vaginal trauma. Experts disagree about the significance of that. It could indicate previous injury or infection, a sign of abuse, or nothing at all. Arapahoe County Coroner Dr. Michael Doberson says you would need more information before you could come to any conclusion. That was part of Smith's job. But then she was abruptly pulled off the investigation and told police were handling everything. "There was a lot of territoriality around the case,” she says.

Smith says she also saw things in the Ramsey investigation that she's seen in other cases, like the factor that money played in it. "No one is exempt but people with money are able to keep themselves more cushioned,” she says. She says she also saw a reluctance to even consider the issue of child sex abuse. Says Smith, "It’s just not a place where you know it's so abhorrent to people that they can't even do it, they can't even wrap their heads around it but it's more common than we think. The sexual violation of children has been around for a long time." Smith believes all of them involved with the case lost their way. She concludes, "In all the hyper-personalization around this case, everybody wanting a piece of it, everybody wanting to be the hero understandably and wanting to find out what happened to this little girl, our purpose really got lost. We lost sight of this child." In her writing, Smith describes seeing a picture of a smiling JonBenet, taken Christmas morning and tells how distressing it was to realize the child would die what she called a hideous death that very day.

No mention of fecal smearing on the observed red satin box. Not only was Holly Smith removed from the case, but she had all the material relating to the Ramsey's redacted from her autobiography. What does that tell you?

So you can exclude Kolars thoughts regarding the pajama bottoms as speculation, possibly as filler for his book?

Yet the fecal staining and soiled objects in JonBenet's bedroom are not speculative and possibly relate in some manner to JonBenet's death?

.

 

[fr brown]

Yes it was found on his robe. Its in several posts here on websleuths but heres a link to the paper. Exhibit 66 seminal fluid on JR robe. I am pretty sure this paper is posted on here too but I can't find it. I do remember the picture showing his robe next to a desk on the floor. I think I used the wrong word. It was his home office not a study. Odd place to change clothes IMO.

CBI Serology Testing 3 Completed January 29, 1997

Even if what you say is all true, it's not what I would consider evidence of sexual assault or murder. Seminal fluid on his bathrobe, so what?

The robe placement might be interesting to flesh out the picture of events.

I don't have the leisure to think about this right now.

(FF shows two studies, one on the 3rd floor and one on the first. I think the one on the third would be his "home office.")

 

[kaykay543]

Even if what you say is all true, it's not what I would consider evidence of sexual assault or murder. Seminal fluid on his bathrobe, so what?

The robe placement might be interesting to flesh out the picture of events.

I don't have the leisure to think about this right now.

(FF shows two studies, one on the 3rd floor and one on the first. I think the one on the third would be his "home office.")

I never said it was evidence of a sexual assault or murder? You said it didn't exist so I was just giving you the link to the blood results that show seaman on JR robe. IMO the robe not being where a person would typically leave a robe could point to JR not being asleep all night as he proclaims. It was also thought that there was fibers from this robe on JBR. But then they thought it was something else. I am not sure if that was ever resolved.

Just another piece of the puzzle. Its funny to me that people will so easily disregard any evidence pertaining to JR. Now just imagine if BR robe had seminal fluid on it. Everyone would point it out!

 

[icedtea4me]

One of my theories is that John planned to put the body in the suitcase and hoist it out the basement window during the time he went missing for 60-90 minutes. When he realized it wouldn't work for whatever reason, he improvised and staged the body in the basement. This could explain why there was both a ransom note and
the body in the same house.

JonBenet was pretty much in full rigor at that point. There's no way he would've been able to get her into that suitcase.

 

[spivey]

JonBenet was pretty much in full rigor at that point. There's no way he would've been able to get her into that suitcase.

I agree. If it was his first interaction with a dead body, would he necessarily know or think of that?

Whether or not he intended to put her in the suitcase, I still think the original plan was to get the body out of the house. This is my opinion despite the fact that it would have made more sense to remove the body prior to calling 911.

 

[fr brown]

I never said it was evidence of a sexual assault or murder? You said it didn't exist so I was just giving you the link to the blood results that show seaman on JR robe. IMO the robe not being where a person would typically leave a robe could point to JR not being asleep all night as he proclaims. It was also thought that there was fibers from this robe on JBR. But then they thought it was something else. I am not sure if that was ever resolved.

Just another piece of the puzzle. Its funny to me that people will so easily disregard any evidence pertaining to JR. Now just imagine if BR robe had seminal fluid on it. Everyone would point it out!

I didn't say it didn't exist. I said I didn't remember reading about it. It's funny to me that people mischaracterize what other people say.

The robe was found on the third floor, perhaps in the home office/study adjacent to John's bathroom. That would tend to corroborate his story that he was in his bathroom when he heard Patsy scream. The following exchange from '98 makes it clear that they're looking at photographs and talking about rooms upstairs:

THOMAS HANEY: And 45?

PATSY RAMSEY: That's going up to the top of the steps. Side room.

THOMAS HANEY: 46 was your room?

PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

TRIP DeMUTH: 47? Everything seem okay?

PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

TRIP DeMUTH: 48, what is that?

PATSY RAMSEY: That's John's study, back --

TRIP DeMUTH: To the right?

PATSY RAMSEY: Where you turn right, uh-hum.

TRIP DeMUTH: Do you know what this is? It's hard to see, in the back lower corner? Does that look like his bathrobe?

PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. Looks like a sweater or something.

TRIP DeMUTH: Would it be unusual for John to put his bathrobe down on the floor in that area?

PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Because he usually hangs it up in his bathroom. Unless, you know, he was starting to put it on when I screamed for him and he dropped it or something.

TRIP DeMUTH: What are we on, 49? What is that, Patsy?

PATSY RAMSEY: This is my closet.

 

[fr brown]

The robe was found on the third floor, perhaps in the home office/study adjacent to John's bathroom. That would tend to corroborate his story that he was in his bathroom when he heard Patsy scream. The following exchange from '98 makes it clear that they're looking at photographs and talking about rooms upstairs:

THOMAS HANEY: And 45?

PATSY RAMSEY: That's going up to the top of the steps. Side room.

THOMAS HANEY: 46 was your room?

PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

TRIP DeMUTH: 47? Everything seem okay?

PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

TRIP DeMUTH: 48, what is that?

PATSY RAMSEY: That's John's study, back --

TRIP DeMUTH: To the right?

PATSY RAMSEY: Where you turn right, uh-hum.

TRIP DeMUTH: Do you know what this is? It's hard to see, in the back lower corner? Does that look like his bathrobe?

PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. Looks like a sweater or something.

TRIP DeMUTH: Would it be unusual for John to put his bathrobe down on the floor in that area?

PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Because he usually hangs it up in his bathroom. Unless, you know, he was starting to put it on when I screamed for him and he dropped it or something.

TRIP DeMUTH: What are we on, 49? What is that, Patsy?

PATSY RAMSEY: This is my closet.

Photo 47 is a view of the Ramseys' bed (as seen on acandyrose), part of the sequence of crime scene photos of the 3rd floor. Thus John's robe was found on the third floor, not the first.

 

[icedtea4me]

Patsy mentioned the OJ Simpson case in her first TV appearance, didn't she? Maybe she followed the case. Maybe John did too. There was rampant speculation that Simpson'd stashed something related to the crime in his golf bag.
<snip>

Patsy also alluded to Susan Smith, who killed her children because they stood in the way of her relationship with a man.

I don't know about sticking things in a golf bag when it'd be easier to place said items in coat pockets.