My doubts about the case

[Ivy]

I know you do, BrotherMoon, but that doesn't mean you're right.

 

[BlueCrab]

It's true that kids use chairs to get to things in the higher wall cabinets in the kitchen, but the bowl contained Burke's fingerprints and not JonBenet's fingerprints. If JonBenet had used a chair to get the bowl, her fingerprints would be on the bowl, not Burke's. It's obvious that Burke got the bowl and the waterglass down from the high cabinets in the kitchen.

JMO

 

[why_nutt]

It's true that kids use chairs to get to things in the higher wall cabinets in the kitchen, but the bowl contained Burke's fingerprints and not JonBenet's fingerprints. If JonBenet had used a chair to get the bowl, her fingerprints would be on the bowl, not Burke's. It's obvious that Burke got the bowl and the waterglass down from the high cabinets in the kitchen.

JMO

I accept your statement as a very good possibility, though it is also possible that JonBenet touched the bowl but left prints so smeared through the motion of her fingertips as to be unrecognizably hers. It is something to consider. My thinking on the subject of JonBenet's ability or inability to reach for a bowl on a table is more along the lines of believing it might be a subject on which Patsy's credibility can be impeached, leaving the door wide open to question how truthful other testimony of hers is. If it could be determined that a 47-inch-tall child could have reached the bowl, and Patsy has gone on the record stating that it was not possible, then Patsy cannot necessarily be believed even when she says she did not kill her daughter (or, to fit your theory, that she knows Burke did not).

So the question stands: Can a 47-inch-tall child have reached the bowl where it was found? If no, then Patsy is credible on that subject and may be credible on others. If yes, then Patsy loses credibility on that subject and may have lied about other aspects of the case.

 

[BrotherMoon]

It's true that kids use chairs to get to things in the higher wall cabinets in the kitchen, but the bowl contained Burke's fingerprints and not JonBenet's fingerprints. If JonBenet had used a chair to get the bowl, her fingerprints would be on the bowl, not Burke's. It's obvious that Burke got the bowl and the waterglass down from the high cabinets in the kitchen.

JMO

If the bowl had pineapple in it, wouldn't it be in the frig and not the high cabinet? And didn't the bowl also have Patsy's prints on it, making her just as logical a deliverer of the bowl and contents?

 

[Ivy]

Where does the info come from about the pineapple bowl being taken from a cabinet? Every source I've found indicates the bowl--with the fresh pineapple in it--had been stored in the refrigerator. Unless the intruder or Patsy or Burke cut open the fresh pineapple that night for JonBenet's snack, the bowl of pineapple must have been in the fridge, having been cut up previously.

It might have been a little tricky for JonBenet to open the refrigerator door and take out the pineapple in the bowl while standing on a chair or stool.

imo

 

[BlueCrab]

Where does the info come from about the pineapple bowl being taken from a cabinet? Every source I've found indicates the bowl--with the fresh pineapple in it--had been stored in the refrigerator. Unless the intruder or Patsy or Burke cut open the fresh pineapple that night for JonBenet's snack, the bowl of pineapple must have been in the fridge, having been cut up previously.

It might have been a little tricky for JonBenet to open the refrigerator door and take out the pineapple in the bowl while standing on a chair or stool.

imo

PATSY RAMSEY: "I bought pineapple. It was fresh pineapple that had been peeled or whatever they do to it, and core it and cut it up a little bit, or some that had been fresh that was sealed there in the produce area.

TOM HANEY: "What store did you buy this from?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "Safeway is usually where I buy it from."

TRIP DEMUTH: "What would you use these bowls for?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "... I think I got those little bowls for like salsa, you know, salsa, chips and salsa."

TOM HANEY: "Those bowls, you described them being on the cabinet or a shelf, and you demonstrated it was higher.

Is that something JonBenet could have reached?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "No."

TOM HANEY: "Could Burke reach the bowl?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "He could reach the bowl."

JMO

 

[Toltec]

If JonBenet used a chair or stepping stool to get the pineapple out of the fridge...or a bowl from the cabinet...she most likely would have left the chair/stool right where she placed it.

I believe it was Burke who took the pineapple out of the fridge and reached for a bowl in the cabinet.

We still do not know who's fingerprints are on the spoon.

 

[Ivy]

Toltec, I think you're absolutely right about the chair or stool being left where JonBenet placed it if she had used either to get the bowl and pineapple. Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl. The bowl was at the place he always sat at the table. A glass and a teabag were there also, and Burke was the tea drinker in the family. I agree that Burke is the one who took the bowl out of the cabinet and the pineapple from the fridge.

PMPT pb 677:

"The most delicate part of the interview was getting Burke to answer questions without revealing what the police knew. First he was asked if he ate any pineapple and when he went to bed. He didn't remember."

I can see how he might not have remembered what time he went to bed, but he would have remembered the pineapple incident. He obviously wasn't telling the truth. Why?

imo

 

[KATKAT19691]

See what I mean. every sit. it makes perfect sense for Burke to fit. He could reach the bowl and pineapple, it was in JBR habit to take the flashlight to his room and sleep with him it would make perfect sense that they went to the kitchen for a snack, I know me and my brother and sis did. By the way as far as kids climbing, I could climb a door face when I was 2 years old and get on top of fridge, nothing I could not reach. That is where I got the name Kat from. My poor sis got stuck with Windy which she changed to Wendy you can guess why. Just a little humor in the sick world.
Anyway find me one sit. where it does not make sense for the Burke story brothermoon. I dare you.

 

[BrotherMoon]

See what I mean. every sit. it makes perfect sense for Burke to fit. He could reach the bowl and pineapple, it was in JBR habit to take the flashlight to his room and sleep with him it would make perfect sense that they went to the kitchen for a snack, I know me and my brother and sis did. By the way as far as kids climbing, I could climb a door face when I was 2 years old and get on top of fridge, nothing I could not reach. That is where I got the name Kat from. My poor sis got stuck with Windy which she changed to Wendy you can guess why. Just a little humor in the sick world.
Anyway find me one sit. where it does not make sense for the Burke story brothermoon. I dare you.

Ooops, you goofed, you didn't double-dog-dare me. No counts.

 

[KATKAT19691]

Come on brother you are the only one here who might be able to lead my thinking to someone other than burke, give it a go it wont hurt i promise.:blowkiss:

Well maybe a little but you might like it. Remember and I dont know if you have kids or not but the only way that you would lie and cover up which it is app. that the ramseys are doing is for another child. After all you have lost one and the love you have for the other would lead you to do things in the heat of the moment that after consideration you might regret. However, you would still protect the other child. As bad as it sounds, there is nothing and I mean nothing I would not do to protect my child. Would be getting him some serious help about this time, but would still protect him. Esp. if I lost my other one.

 

[BrotherMoon]

No fairzies, I said no counts. Go back to square 1.

(I hope everyone is paying attention to the finer points of debate going on here.)

 

[KATKAT19691]

:twocents: Okay Brother you win, I have to admit it has been quite awhile since I

played kid games:snooty: and I have forgotten the rules. However, if ya dont want to answer the question :chicken: I understand, there is not much that you

could say to change the evidence anyway, but I thought I would give ya a

shot. :slap: I thought at least you would have a theory as to why I might

be wrong in my belief that Burke was the killer and the parents covered it up

for him. Not just brothermoon do I have any takers on tearing my theory

apart? HMMMM guess I must have solved the case then! Yeah for me!:woohoo: We can all go home now.:dance:

Kat

 

[gatetrekker44]

Smit's evidence is delusional.

The touted open window, which is fake - the fact that the door was closed with a chair behind it - and a shard of glass on the suitcase is nonsensical.

That was no way out for an intruder - stepping on the suitcase to get out the window, leaving the shard of glass: NOT WITH A CHAIR BLOCKING THE DOOR CLOSED.

Smit explains the pineapple as - JonBenet eating pineapple from a tupperware in her bedroom. The pineapple is downstairs on the counter and he has her waking up and eating it from a tupperware (which was never tested) in her bedroom.

Smit has her being knocked unconscious with a stun gun - I don't think so. Even IF IF IF (thankss Camper for that expression) there was a stun gun - it doesn't knock someone out unconsious.

Anyway - Smit's theory can't be backed up with any hard evidence.

Smit ignores the hard evidence in the development of his theory - he was dupped by the "cover-up."

I've been seeing stories about tasers killing adult men-so it could have knocked out a child-but wouldn't there be puncture marks from it????

 

[KATKAT19691]

:twocents: I challange anyone not just brothermoon, to show me evidence that Burke:liar: is not the killer and his parents covered it up. Everything points to him. In the case of Patsy being the killer only a few things point to her, in the case of Jon being the killer only a few things point to him, as far as the intruder goes only a few things to him. But everything points to Bruke. So why was Burke not questioned more and without kid gloves. :banghead:

:doh: As far as the taser goes it has not been proven there was one, the police do not think there was one.

My ex husband is a cop and they have to get tasered to be cert. to carry one. He says it is extremely painful, and thinks it should be used instead of jail time. You know, instead of the judge giving a year, give them two hits with taser. He thinks it would be more effective. I wonder if someone would be willing to do that instead of going to jail say for stealing or a minor crime?

:twocents: I don't think a taser can kill, that is the hole point, it is a method of protecting yourself without killing your attacker that is why the police have them. He said that he has never heard of anyone being killed with one.:waitasec: but I wonder. If anyone finds a case where someone has been killed with one let me know. I love to point out when he is wrong.:innocent:

Not just brothermoon do I have any takers on tearing my theory apart? HMMMM guess I must have solved the case then! Yeah for me!:woohoo: We can all go home now.:dance:

Kat


This is just my opinion but welcome any debate. :furious:

 

[BlueCrab]

Kat and Gatetrekker,

Stun guns can and have killed people. A stun gun could have killed JonBenet.

In one of my BDI theories I suggest that JonBenet may have died by asphyxia after her respiratory muscles were paralyzed while being stungunned.

From Terrance Allen, former medical examiner for both the Los Angeles and San Francisco coroners' offices, as quoted in "e.Peak Features", Simon Fraser University, May 10, 1999:

"As pathologists, we should warn law-enforcement agencies that the TASER can cause death".

In that same e.Peak article:

"According to Dr. Sara Redding and Dr. Ronald Kornblum, chief medical examiner in Los Angeles, the TASER has been used several thousand times by the Los Angeles police department. There have been 16 deaths associated with its use in L.A. County."

IMO the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were stun gun burns. Those two 50,000 volt hits could have easily killed a little 45-pound girl by paralyzing her respiratory system, thus causing death by asphyxia. The gun is missing along with other critical items of evidence (the tape; the cord; etc.), but JonBenet is clearly telling us she was stungunned. Please listen to her by studying the autopsy photos that show the stun gun injuries on her body.

IMO the stun gun was NOT used to knock her out so she could be carried quietly from her bedroom (as theorized by Lou Smit). There was no intruder. Nevertheless, IMO the stun gun was used as an instrument of torture, and it could have been the murder weapon.

JMO

 

[KATKAT19691]

Bluecrab, I have found a site that cont. your theory, this is part of it and here is the link to read more.... "In more than 30 years since the first Taser was introduced, there have been exactly zero deaths clearly caused by the Taser. This statement is supported by independent medical examiners." also states... "That's why it's important to look into the actual cause of death and not engage in the "guilt by association" approach. More than 70,000 volunteers have been hit with the Taser. More than 45,000 actual suspects have been hit with the Taser in the field --- again, with zero fatalities attributed directly to the Taser.
"Unfortunately, the media have played upon these deaths. Despite its high voltage, the Taser's electrical output is simply too low to affect the heart. Moreover, as one leading cardiac expert said recently, the chances of the Taser's electrical frequency causing damage to cardiac tissue is as likely as someone receiving a cellphone call on their AM radio. We encourage continual medical reviews of Taser technology, but the public should have a better understanding of what our nonlethal Taser technology can and can't do." To read the full article here is the link: Taser Guns Aren't Lethal; There's Proof.


Where did you get your info that someone has been killed by tasers, and that it in any way interfers with breathing? Please post the link, I would like to go and read it. You may note in the deaths that have happened, there were underlying factors, bad hearts and drug use. Death was not caused by taser. As far as I know JBR had neither of these, Also as the many test has proven, being tasered does not in anyway effect the respiratory system.

I do believe that burke was respon. for the death of JBR. Maybe there was a taser in the house and him torturing her with it is how the hole thing got started. I think he had been sexually abuse. her for a long time and that night it sadly got out of control, and his parents have been covering for him every since.

IMO
Kat

 

[BlueCrab]

Kat,

The article you referenced above was written by Steve Tuttle, who represents AIR TASER. Tuttle has a vested interest in trying to make stun guns appear to be safe. Air Taser does not want its name associated with the death of JonBenet nor any other person. But he's peeing into the wind. Stun guns can and do kill and it's been proven again and again.

No one enjoys perfect health. When a person dies after being hit with a stun gun, Tuttle ludicrously blames the death on whatever health problem that person had. Tuttle fails to add that the person who died would still be alive had he not been stungunned.

Steve Tuttle once publicly demontrated the supposed safety of using AIR TASERS by shocking himself with one without leaving a burn injury. But he held the gun against his skin for only a fraction of a second. Most stun gun hits in the field are for one or two seconds. If held for three or more seconds the gun will leave twin burn marks on the skin as seen on JonBenet's back. If held longer than three seconds the 50,000 volts will leave serious burns, such as seen on JonBenet's face.

JMO

 

[Ivy]

Here's a webpage that dispels the Ramsey stun gun myth:

http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/stungun.html

imo

 

[BlueCrab]

Here's a webpage that dispels the Ramsey stun gun myth:

http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/stungun.html

imo

Ivy,

The information in your link above is from Cutter's website. Cutter was a very good poster here on WS several years ago and I agreed with almost everything he posted. However, IMO his conclusions with respect to the stun gun issue have been successfully disproved.

Cutter's main points were (1), the DISTANCES between the tiny twin rectangular marks on JonBenet when compared to the distances of the same stun gun marks on the test pig were not the same, and (2), the MISALIGNMENT of the twin rectangular marks on JonBenet when compared to the uniform straight alignment of the marks on the pig were not the same. Cutter compared the two sets of twin marks to the actual twin prongs of an Air Taser stun gun and concluded the marks on JonBenet were not from an Air Taser stun gun because they were the wrong distance apart and the rectangular marks didn't line up the same.

What Cutter didn't consider was the elasticity of the skin on JonBenet versus the elasticity of the skin on a pig. JonBenet's skin was thin and pliable, while the skin on the test pig was thick and rigid. Thus, when the stun gun was applied to a struggling and likely "flapping" body of JonBenet, and pushed hard against her skin, the skin would have distorted prior to the trigger being pulled. When the gun's pressure was removed from the skin several seconds later the skin would return to its normal condition, but the tiny twin rectangular marks left on the skin would be distorted -- exactly as revealed by the autopsy pictures.

At home experiments using the fingernails of two adjacent fingers pressed against a fleshy part of your forearm or thigh will demonstrate this. Push hard and straight in the first time to leave twin finger nail impressions in your skin. Then, an inch or two away, lightly twist the same fingers to one side to distort the skin before pushing the nails hard into the skin again. Compare the two twin marks. The distances between the two marks as well as their respective alignments will not be the same.

That's why the stun gun marks on JonBenet will not compare exactly with the actual stun gun prongs, and with the stun gun marks on the test pig. JonBenet did not possess the skin of a pig.


JMO