Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery

[stephsb]

They don't need her in the trailer. The garage is detached from the trailer. Avery's defense notes that no DNA was found of Teresa's in the Avery home, I think that is more compelling evidence that she wasn't there, not that it matters anyway, once again, because the State claimed she was murdered in the garage/jeep. I agree trial notes aren't the equivalent of a trial transcript, but the Avery one's that I have read are far more detailed than the Dassey ones, and I also followed the trial in real time. Granted, I can't remember every little detail, and I'm not saying it wasn't brought up, but it certainly wasn't a make or break it factor for the Avery trial.

Once again, the Dassey trial is totally different. Of course they have to bring up circumstantial evidence that she was in the trailer, they have nothing else that could show she went into the trailer, where she needed to be to corroborate Brendan's false confession.

 

[MirnaMinkoff]

Ok I have reached the point in the video where I believe real coercion is occurring. roughly 12:57 pm in this video : [video=youtube;hTrYTWlCUEE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTrYTWlCUEE[/video]


It seems to be about creating the timeline and brendan is really starting to seem as if he is clamming up as I think he notices the change of tone in their voices as now he as admitted to rape and they are going to go through it yet again to get the timeline to match what they want.

We know from the bus driver that the timeline they are suggesting at this point is unreasonable and likely impossible. So it's at this point that I can say for sure that there is fabrication going on. But I also notice a distinct difference in Brendan's demeanor, as if he senses now he must say things he likely knows are untrue to keep them on his side.

ugh.

Unfortunately, I didn't get that feeling until now, and he has already admitted to raping this poor girl.

I didn't think before I started watching these videos that I would arrive at this conclusion, but I am going to say that I believe it's possible that brendan was a part of the rape and murder of teresa. Not 100% convinced, but I'd say i'm now about 95% there. Regardless of what happens from here with these videos, I don't feel as if they were feeding him anything based on what I've seen. If there are more to these videos, I'm open to evaluating that. Also, if someone has some expertise on the whole false confession topic, I'm open to hearing that as I admit ignorance on that as well as how much of a factor his lower intelligence is. My problem with that, is that I do sense he understands that rape is bad, murder is bad, and that's the whole reason he suggests he didn't say anything is that he would be punished.

So, I get the argument, but not certain I buy it. But open to hearing opinions on that as well.

Well, you do understand that this was the third or fourth interrogation, right? The first interrogations occurred on Feb. 26...this tape is from March 1 so Brendan has already been bullied by these two for about five days prior to this video. They even put him up in a hotel room, with his mom, the first day to have them all to themselves and to show they were his friend.

The investigators went to his school twice and were already feeding him information and steering him long before this point. The video interrogations started after he had already been spending hours with these two guys. Start from the beginning if you are going to make assumptions.

The link below gives the audio of the first two interrogations, (and transcripts) then the video interrogations at the police station that came later. There's also links to Kayla who they bullied into giving them a reason to go after Brendan because he was the defense's key wittiness to seeing Steven after Teresa has supposed left or being killed.

http://www.convolutedbrian.com/dassey_confessions_links.html

The "shackles" and other BS that the cops talk about were basically your average dumb kinky gifts from sex shops. NONE of them had any DNA, they didn't show any signs of use nor did the bed have any types of marks on it that would indicate a struggling woman was chained to the bedpost and sexually assaulted.

 

[MaxManning]

Ok, finished the dassey trial tanscripts -- Yes, the narrative I suggested was used in closing arguments for prosecution - they led with it. They didn't add the barb janda phone message from auto trader or the notepad though. Still interested in hearing how the avery trial did the narrative because I believe they'd be more prone to push the limits even more in terms of things that steve can't explain, in hopes he did testify.

Lots of things were hokey in the dassey prosecutions case, and lots of contradictions imo and frankly just completely unbelievable in regards to killing her in house and the overkill in the garage. I have never bought any of those theories although I have entertained how they could be true.


Currently here is what I am leaning toward being what happened :

steve lures teresa in house, saying he needs to get money to pay for picture and maybe something else to lure her or he just forces her in when she knocks on door.
steve rapes teresa in trailer
Brought her to garage and killed her with two shots to head with something over head to stop splatter. Likely bound, not sure I buy the handcuffs.
Hand is cut at some point between during rape/killing.
Some blood is pooled on this spot on the floor
Puts gloves on, likely cloth gloves that absorb his blood and drip far less, but will leave contact blood transfer from right hand knuckle area. no prints because of this.
pulls rav4 into garage
Puts teresa in the rav4
Drives rav4 to location it was found and unloads teresa onto something like a tarp or plastic
Loads teresa on golf cart - thus the cadaver dog hit on golf cart - maybe uses sled brendan mentioned on back of golfcart ?
On the way back he put garbage on top of her, parks outside garage
steven calls brendan to help clean the blood,notes that what he is cleaning is red. not likely he even suspects human blood.
Brendan goes home, mother asks about bleach stains on pants, and he tells her was helping steve clean garage
brendan changes pants.
Steve calls for him to help with bon fire
brendan comes over and possibly they drive around picking up more garbage.
steve and brendan unload garbage and teresa onto the fire. Because she is wrapped, he doesn't know what it is.
brendan notices as fire burns he sees body parts.
Steve recognizes brendan knows and threatens him to not tell
Barb calls, brendan goes home

** in this theory, planting of evidence could possibly still happen in regards to bullet in the garage and dna under hood to link to brendan's testimony -- to get their man. I have doubts about them not finding bullet in November if it wasn't there and a cadaver dog not finding it from the beginning if it had teresa's blood on it. If that was the real bullet, it would be because he thought it was in her head -- but I doubt this as well.

Notes :
Steve did call/text teresa to redirect her to his place instead of barb's - so auto trader didn't have his name.
Barb would tell investigators she wasn't home , yes it was her van teresa was called for as Steve was handling selling it.
Steve says it's a mixup and he never sees her.
He either forgot to ditch the auto trader magazine and bill of sale (doh!) *or* didn't think of it at all *or* police planted.
Steve erased voicemails via her phone.
Steve underestimated timeline, maybe hoped she had come earlier when no one would be around to witness her vehicle. He called auto trader very early in day , before 9am.
Later timeline than he wanted rushed his cleanup of garage and getting rid of body as well.
Possibly originally intended to crush car that night or something delayed that.
I still question why he wouldn't crush the car, but criminals have been dumber so I'm not gonna say it's ridiculous that he might have thought 4000 car junkyard gave him time to get it done.
Maybe paranoia being watched and waiting for best time?
Brendan was crying and told kayla about him helping steve move and burn body, even though I believe it was not knowingly until he was at that fire.
Brendan told mom truth about the pants/bleach/cleaning.
Brendan is innocent in my opinion, most if not all of his interview statements are coerced for certain links to possibly planted evidence.
But I do believe some things were true -- ie he saw the body parts in the fire.
Steve is guilty, and rape was the simple motive.



I still believe there could be a far more sinister framing via law enforcement, but if I had to say right now -- above is what I think is most plausible based on what I have read about the case.

I'll not argue any of the above, you can rip it apart. I will evaluate reactions for flaws, but won't rebut. I haven't made up my mind, still want to see avery trial transcripts.


I don't know there is any way to pin down a real solid timeline other than bus driver saw her at 3:45-ish and bon fire was in evening and Barb Janda's confirmed interactions with brendan. But don't really see how what I have described couldn't happen, since his first interaction with brendan is around time steve asks for help cleaning floor. Lots of time there.

 

[MaxManning]

Max- the lifting the hood was fed to Brendan, like everything else they used to convict him. In the 3/1 statement:

"Do you recall him taking the plates off" -Yeah
"Ok, what else did he do, he did something else, you need to tell us what he did, after that car is parked there. It's extremely important"
(pause)
"Before you guys leave that car" -That he left the gun in the car
"That's not what I'm thinking about. He did something to that car. He took the plates and he, I believe he did something else in that car."
(pause) - I don't know
"Did he, did he go and look at the engine, did he raise the hood at all or anything like that? To do something to the car? -Yeah
"What was that?"
(pause)
"What did he do Brendan?
"It's OK, what did he do?"
"What did he do under the hood if that's what he did?
(pause) -I don't know what he did but I know he went under
"He did raise the hood?"
(nod yes)
"You remember that?" -Yeah

This is a pretty good example of how most of the 3/1 "confession" Dassey gave went like. Virtually EVERYTHING in the criminal complaint had been fed to him. How anyone believes anything that came out of his mouth is beyond me.

Yeah, I think 99% of it was coerced/suggested to tie to possibly planted evidence. Currently I think it's most likely that all that is true is that he saw body parts in the fire and that he thinks maybe he unknowingly helped clean the garage and possibly unknowingly moved the body to the fire -- in all the garbage on golf cart/sled they used to haul it to the fire.

I did read the false confessions doc a user posted that had interrogation tactics and how lower cognitive individuals are highly susceptible to suggestion and wanting to please etc. and that along with viewing transcripts with that in mind, did change my opinion on many things. I never thought it was all 100% truth. But reading each transcript, in the beginning I was more prone to believe than when I got to the 3/1 interrogation which goes off the rails in terms of tactics.

 

[MaxManning]

Well, you do understand that this was the third or fourth interrogation, right? The first interrogations occurred on Feb. 26...this tape is from March 1 so Brendan has already been bullied by these two for about five days prior to this video. They even put him up in a hotel room, with his mom, the first day to have them all to themselves and to show they were his friend.

The investigators went to his school twice and were already feeding him information and steering him long before this point. The video interrogations started after he had already been spending hours with these two guys. Start from the beginning if you are going to make assumptions.

The link below gives the audio of the first two interrogations, (and transcripts) then the video interrogations at the police station that came later. There's also links to Kayla who they bullied into giving them a reason to go after Brendan because he was the defense's key wittiness to seeing Steven after Teresa has supposed left or being killed.

http://www.convolutedbrian.com/dassey_confessions_links.html

The "shackles" and other BS that the cops talk about were basically your average dumb kinky gifts from sex shops. NONE of them had any DNA, they didn't show any signs of use nor did the bed have any types of marks on it that would indicate a struggling woman was chained to the bedpost and sexually assaulted.

Yes, I have since changed my opinion after reading transcripts and reading some docs on false confessions, interrogation tactics, and how that applies to cognitively impaired. See my last two posts above for more detail. I say the kayla transcripts, and I don't think she was bullied as she told a guidance counselor about what she said.

I believe what she said to be true. Yes, I believe that brendan saw body parts in the fire and likely cleaned up blood , albeit unknowingly -- he's innocent imo. (based on what I know so far, that's my opinion)

 

[stephsb]

I agree totally that everything in Dassey's confession is ridiculous. The coercion started in that first interview in 2/27, and while subtle, it continued until 3/1 when it is no longer subtle and they mean business. The 5/13 one was suppressed from court, but is still worth seeing because it paints a great picture of how disgusting the investigators are, and there are also some comical good cop/bad cop routines going on, which unfortunately Dassey is buying hook, line, and sinker.

I find it shocking that anyone can read the 3/1 confession, which was read in open court and convict Dassey. It is so ridiculously obvious Dassey is of a lower level of intelligence, telling investigators what they want to hear, and during most of the interview, has no idea about the questions he's being asked, or the serious situation he is in. As I've stated earlier, anyone who is willing to tell investigators they slit someone's throat, when there is NO evidence of that whatsoever, is not thinking about deception. They have no idea what kind of situation they are in, as evidenced by some of his heartbreaking comments.

At this point, I'm pretty certain Dassey's original statement was the truth: He didn't know Halbach and doesn't know anything about her disappearance. After everything I read, I am really not convinced he did anything at all.

 

[justanother]

I finished the series last night and got caught up reading the reddit which led to many transcripts and motions filed by Avery. Then i thought i'd come see what trusty old WS has on this. Looks like there's a lot to read! Crazy case.

 

[MaxManning]

If you can't see that this is clearly a frame job right from the get-go, then... I don't know what to say.
You say you feel manipulated by the documentary, yet you don't feel manipulated by what the prosecution has done... again.. I don't know what to say.

I have posted what I believe at the moment. look above.

I am not convinced it was a complete frame. I do believe it's most likely that avery raped/killed her. I do believe police likely planted evidence to tie to details in brendans false confession.

I have watched the documentary, read dassey trial transcripts, the interview transcripts. It's fact that the documentary left out many details and manipulated. Many that are crucial in forming my opinion. I belive police coerced brendan and he is innocent.

No need to say anything more than you have. I believe what I believe, and it's not been based on 1 single source, which from your narrow statement I am guessing you've just watched the documentary.

Definitely utilize documents on this thread to research more on your own if you care to, not much more I can say than that.

 

[MaxManning]

I agree totally that everything in Dassey's confession is ridiculous. The coercion started in that first interview in 2/27, and while subtle, it continued until 3/1 when it is no longer subtle and they mean business. The 5/13 one was suppressed from court, but is still worth seeing because it paints a great picture of how disgusting the investigators are, and there are also some comical good cop/bad cop routines going on, which unfortunately Dassey is buying hook, line, and sinker.

I find it shocking that anyone can read the 3/1 confession, which was read in open court and convict Dassey. It is so ridiculously obvious Dassey is of a lower level of intelligence, telling investigators what they want to hear, and during most of the interview, has no idea about the questions he's being asked, or the serious situation he is in. As I've stated earlier, anyone who is willing to tell investigators they slit someone's throat, when there is NO evidence of that whatsoever, is not thinking about deception. They have no idea what kind of situation they are in, as evidenced by some of his heartbreaking comments.

At this point, I'm pretty certain Dassey's original statement was the truth: He didn't know Halbach and doesn't know anything about her disappearance. After everything I read, I am really not convinced he did anything at all.

I agree that a confession to anything pertiaining to guilt was false.

But, because he told kayla and kayla told her counselor, I think the body parts in the fire is true. That gets mentioned in the interviews. I think it's truth. I don't think it's has to be completely all horseshit or not. 99.9% false is my opinion. He's innocent because he didn't know he was cleaning up a body or burning a body until he was already doing it.

 

[MaxManning]

Also want to state that as a juror I would vote not guilty for both. Steve only because I have reasonable doubt.

But outside of that standard set by our law, if I had to give a percentage of how certain I am that he did it , based on what I have read/seen. I'd say 95%.

But if there was new evidence via investigating chuck, earl, tadych etc. I'd say that's the 5% that is unsure right now, and that could go up dramatically with even a few new pieces of evidence.

 

[stephsb]

The evidence was all planted and found by police long before Dassey ever confessed. What they did was try to get Dassey to confess to the evidence they had, and in many cases he did exactly what they were aiming for. The 2/27 confessions are already showing the exact direction they plan on going w. Dassey and what his purpose was- to testify against Avery at trial. If they had any evidence he was w. Avery and had anything to do w. the disposal, they would have hammered him right away when they interviewed him and his brothers. Instead, they wait until almost 4 months after all the evidence on the Avery property is discovered. He was nothing but their pawn. Sad.

I don't think there is any evidence Avery raped her. That house had no DNA of hers in it, no fingerprints, no hair, nothing linking her specifically to that trailer, except Dassey.

I'll go through all your points and give my thoughts on it once I am finished w. work this afternoon. I do agree that locking down a timeline off of Dassey's statements was a nightmare. When I worked as a paralegal a few summers ago, I worked for the defense in a civil case that went to trial, and had to help go through all the statements and depositions and evidence and lock down a timeline of what our side said and their side said. Central to the case were two high school teenagers, who lied and gave conflicting statements, as did their friends. There were conflicts in the timeline (someone obviously wasn't where they told us they were, etc.) everywhere. Luckily there were Facebook and text messages to help me along. With Dassey, ugh. How many different times do they go back and forth on times? I started trying to make a timeline and eventually gave up. Maybe I will be more ambitious later lol.

 

[Lulu67]

I agree, but did they just luck out when he came on their radar? I mean, if this was all set up, I doubt their original plan was to have TWO defendants.

I am watching this now, and if you recall, the fiancee of Steve saw the writing on the wall with them trying to pressure her and telling her "he did it" and she requested they be removed from her visitors while she was in jail, they then turned their attention to Brendan.

I think this whole thing is a sham and a gross miscarriage of justice. The mere fact that the evidence was tampered with, the blood was still liquid (how is that even possible after all those years unless you've got REALLY good anti-coagulents), and there was a pinhole in the top of the vial?? No sirree, this was a set up to save the Manitowoc County money, as those being sued were going to go down hard.

Honestly, I do not know how these people can sleep at night, knowing what they have done to someone JUST to cover their butts from their initial crime of sending someone they "just didn't like" away to prison. It's deplorable and when Steven said, "When you're poor they can do anything to you" (paraphrased) - he was 100% correct!!! They did the same thing to the WM3.

 

[steveml]

If we believe that Brendan was never in the trailer, then the idea that Teresa was raped and stabbed in the trailer by Steve falls apart. There's not been a shred of convincing evidence received from inside of the trailer. The main basis of the State's claim of rape is built upon Brendan's confession, and the charges were directed against Brendan, not Steve.

If we remove Brendan from the alleged scene inside the trailer, what evidence do we have to suggest anything happened in the trailer? We can't dismiss all of Brendan's confession as a fabrication, but then cherry-pick parts of it to gain a conviction elsewhere.

 

[Marah]

My brother read that Teresa was having an affair with a police officer from Manitowoc. Has anyone read that any where?

Also, did the look for finger prints on the car hood or other things that were surrounding her car?

 

[Midge Montana]

"Steve says it's a mixup and he never sees her."

Hmm. I could swear that Steve did say he saw her in the documentary, while he was being interviewed standing by the van. IIRC, he kind of stated that it was business as usual in that she took the pics, collected the money, etc. and left.

 

[Lulu67]

And if they did stab her ("cut her throat" I believe they implied), there would be blood everywhere, including the mattress and floor, which luminol would have easily picked up.

 

[MaxManning]

The evidence was all planted and found by police long before Dassey ever confessed. What they did was try to get Dassey to confess to the evidence they had, and in many cases he did exactly what they were aiming for. The 2/27 confessions are already showing the exact direction they plan on going w. Dassey and what his purpose was- to testify against Avery at trial. If they had any evidence he was w. Avery and had anything to do w. the disposal, they would have hammered him right away when they interviewed him and his brothers. Instead, they wait until almost 4 months after all the evidence on the Avery property is discovered. He was nothing but their pawn. Sad.

I don't think there is any evidence Avery raped her. That house had no DNA of hers in it, no fingerprints, no hair, nothing linking her specifically to that trailer, except Dassey.

I'll go through all your points and give my thoughts on it once I am finished w. work this afternoon. I do agree that locking down a timeline off of Dassey's statements was a nightmare. When I worked as a paralegal a few summers ago, I worked for the defense in a civil case that went to trial, and had to help go through all the statements and depositions and evidence and lock down a timeline of what our side said and their side said. Central to the case were two high school teenagers, who lied and gave conflicting statements, as did their friends. There were conflicts in the timeline (someone obviously wasn't where they told us they were, etc.) everywhere. Luckily there were Facebook and text messages to help me along. With Dassey, ugh. How many different times do they go back and forth on times? I started trying to make a timeline and eventually gave up. Maybe I will be more ambitious later lol.

I do still think there's a slim chance that it is a huge frame. I guess why I find it less likely is because although Lenk/colburn and these other guys are easy to believe would do this, I just look at the complexity and likelihood of what it would take. And I am open to maybe overestimating what it would take.


In order of least likely to most likely imo :

police killed this women to do this. Possible, but unlikely imo.

someone else killed her and they found the vehicle somewhere else with her in the back. Went about framing avery because they thought he did it - ie auto trader tip. they planted car and everything to get avery

someone else killed her and they found the vehicle exactly as they said and planted to get avery.

someone on the property such as chuck, earl, tadych did it and had means to do certain parts and provide police with tips etc to find items. Chuck was in consistent contact with police from what we know.

someone on the property such as chuck, earl, or tadych did it and the police found things exactly as they said and then planted to get avery.

Maybe there are more scenarios, but those are the ones I have thought about and tried to weight based on how likely I thought it was to happen that way.

Regardless of it all, I agree with everyone that these police are corrupt at minimum capable and willing to planting evidence to *enhance* their case.

 

[MaxManning]

"Steve says it's a mixup and he never sees her."

Hmm. I could swear that Steve did say he saw her in the documentary, while he was being interviewed standing by the van. IIRC, he kind of stated that it was business as usual in that she took the pics, collected the money, etc. and left.

Yes, I was saying that was the "plan" and it changed when the timeline shifted.

If she came earlier, it's less likely someone would have seen her or the vehicle. He called before 9am I think.

If he was aware that someone saw her, and in my theory that's brendan, bus driver, maybe bobby, and a propane guy , he now cannot deny that he's seen her. Plan changed.

After I heard about the message at Barb Janda in the dassey trial transcript, that made me believe it's likely he could have planned it all.

He could have called auto trade back and told them that he made a mistake and it was his him. Instead he called Teresa DIRECTLY. That tells me that he likely meant to do that. Teresa even said on the phone she won't come out unless she can make contact. Avery planned from the beginning to give auto trader wrong name, then call her directly so that auto trader wouldn't have his name as who she was meeting.

How did he get teresa's number ? it's on a pad on his computer table. But shows he had means to contact her directly.

Voice mails erased. Again, fits the narrative.

Before I heard that about voicemail on Barb Janda's machine, I was alot more likely to believe he just gave B.Janda name because it was her vehicle. He likely knew exactly what he was doing imo.

 

[MaxManning]

My brother read that Teresa was having an affair with a police officer from Manitowoc. Has anyone read that any where?

Also, did the look for finger prints on the car hood or other things that were surrounding her car?

that would be bombshell! haha

And no, they didn't check hood for prints or DNA. That aspect to me is maybe the most damning evidence of planting/framing. If you read the dassey trial transcripts, there are soooooooo many things that they decided not to get prints or dna from.

They'd have you believe that they did this because of brendan's testimony leading them to those specific items - bullet and latch on rav4.

But the people testing regularly testified about things like the hood -- "we weren't instructed to test that"

But there is some sense to not getting prints from items that it makes sense that prints would exist, like any given hood in the junkyard.

However, the hood placed up against the victim's vehicle ? Yeah, I'd say it's worth testing that for dna and prints.

But what the police liked about the inside of the rav4 is that it was locked...

Oh, and the battery cables on the rav4, which they said avery disconnected. -- they didn't check those for prints or dna!!!

that's insane, imo.

 

[CoolJ]

I have posted what I believe at the moment. look above.

I am not convinced it was a complete frame. I do believe it's most likely that avery raped/killed her. I do believe police likely planted evidence to tie to details in brendans false confession.

I have watched the documentary, read dassey trial transcripts, the interview transcripts. It's fact that the documentary left out many details and manipulated. Many that are crucial in forming my opinion. I belive police coerced brendan and he is innocent.

No need to say anything more than you have. I believe what I believe, and it's not been based on 1 single source, which from your narrow statement I am guessing you've just watched the documentary.

Definitely utilize documents on this thread to research more on your own if you care to, not much more I can say than that.

Ken Kratz is that you? No need for aliases here..