NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female, 23-33, & 3 Children, under 11, Nov'85 & May'00 #3

[carbuff]

LOL thanks for the explanation but I'm still confused. Does that mean that at some point, a maternal ancestor's father was fooling around on the side?

 

[Springrain]

LOL thanks for the explanation but I'm still confused. Does that mean that at some point, a maternal ancestor's father was fooling around on the side?

I'm totally lost... genealogy stuff goes right over by head.

 

[Laughing]

LOL thanks for the explanation but I'm still confused. Does that mean that at some point, a maternal ancestor's father was fooling around on the side?

Maybe but more likely -- the expected genetic father isn't. Sometimes Mom enters a marriage with a child, who may be later formally or informally adopted. Sometimes Mom is a rape victim & conceives.

Sometimes, it's the Mom "fooling around on the side."

So the person we're all trying to identify has no full sibs and no clear parents.

Hold on to hope, there may be enough pieces one day!

 

[carbuff]

Ahhh, okay, that's very interesting.

So like teen mom gives baby up for adoption, then later marries somebody else would also fit?

 

[ntt1]

Ahhh, okay, that's very interesting.

So like teen mom gives baby up for adoption, then later marries somebody else would also fit?

That could be a scenario, along with countless others.

Another way I've seen it (succinctly) explained is Not Parent Expected or misattributed paternity. When someone presumed to be the biological father of someone is discovered not to be via the matches obtained through genetic genealogy (no common matches with the "known" paternal side).

If they occur further up the family line (say, a great-grandparent, or someone who is deceased) I think it can really complicate these kinds of searches.

 

[Alleykins]

I feel bad for the folks in recent generations who are getting blindsided with the fact the man who raised them isn't their biological father.
I imagine it's a blow to the dads who had no clue the child wasn't theirs and then they find out, too, especially if the child was conceived during their marriage.

 

[carbuff]

Yeah there have been some stories in national magazines about people coping with situations like that. It sounds like a terrible thing to have to go through.

 

[Springrain]

If there's a situation with a single mother of a child with no father listed on the birth records, would that be an NPE or not, because there is no attributed father?

 

[Alleykins]

If there's a situation with a single mother of a child with no father listed on the birth records, would that be an NPE or not, because there is no attributed father?

Here is a pretty good article I found. It doesn't answer your question directly, but does shed some light.
NPE's and Their Resolution

 

[Alleykins]

Yeah there have been some stories in national magazines about people coping with situations like that. It sounds like a terrible thing to have to go through.

One genetic genealogist said she now has to warn all her clients of the possibility they may find out their father isn't their father before she starts her research. That's how often she's been encountering it. And I also read some family DNA sites set up hot lines to deal with distraught customers who find out a family secret, it's become so common.

 

[shadowdancer]

My mother once did some genealogical research into her family tree, although this was pre-DNA.

She found that her grandmother could not have been the biological daughter of the man on her birth certificate, as this man died two years before the birth.. Basically, my great-great grandmother had two kids and listed her late husband as the father even though the children were born two and three years after her late husband died..

Also, my paternal grandfather is widely said to be the product of an affair between his mother and a man whose house backed onto theirs.

I really should submit my dna to one of these databases - I could be related to anyone!!

 

[Springrain]

One genetic genealogist said she now has to warn all her clients of the possibility they may find out their father isn't their father before she starts her research. That's how often she's been encountering it. And I also read some family DNA sites set up hot lines to deal with distraught customers who find out a family secret, it's become so common.

I read this one wild story where a woman was gifted a 23&Me, or similar, DNA kit and tested her DNA, only to find that who she thought was her father, was, but who she thought to be her mother was not a match. Turns out, she and her mother were the victims of a custodial kidnapping when the OP was a baby, and she was raised by an abusive "mother" who she had no genetic relation to and was led to believe was her flesh and blood. Just goes to show that apparently fathers aren't the only ones who might not be the expected parent, apparently!

Is there such a thing as a NPE for the maternal side? What if MC was born to one woman, but kidnapped by Terry and raised with another woman? (Well...in this case, the woman probably would have been Marlyse, and she wasn't listed as MC's mother, but what if it was another woman?)

 

[Alleykins]

I read this one wild story where a woman was gifted a 23&Me, or similar, DNA kit and tested her DNA, only to find that who she thought was her father, was, but who she thought to be her mother was not a match. Turns out, she and her mother were the victims of a custodial kidnapping when the OP was a baby, and she was raised by an abusive "mother" who she had no genetic relation to and was led to believe was her flesh and blood. Just goes to show that apparently fathers aren't the only ones who might not be the expected parent, apparently!

Is there such a thing as a NPE for the maternal side? What if MC was born to one woman, but kidnapped by Terry and raised with another woman? (Well...in this case, the woman probably would have been Marlyse, and she wasn't listed as MC's mother, but what if it was another woman?)

While researching this case, I came across a woman I thought may be a Livings descendant, but wasn't able to find any proof. However, she is listed on the 1910 census with an infant daughter & her husband. She died in 1912. On the 1920 census, her widower has remarried a woman with a similar first name and now he has 4 children, including the baby on the 1910 census. All but one belongs to the deceased wife, and I'm guessing she died during childbirth delivering the 3rd, because of his age. Every single genealogical source, except the 1920 census, pertaining to these children states they belong to the second wife, even though the 1920 census states their mother was born in a different state than the second wife. I'm not sure the descendants realize this.
On a side note, eerily, though this woman was not related to the Livings, her widowed husband ended up living on the same street as William Livings, which was sheer coincidence. I found him by accident while researching her, not the other way around.

 

[Laughing]

@Alleykins -- yup. In one of my lines, I'm pretty sure that the second wife arrived in America, the first interred in Ireland.

When family naming patterns include 4 first names for males, and seriously 3 for females, yeah you'll see this stuff.

The more traumatic the times, the fewer the records for the most part.

Sigh.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[Alleykins]

@Alleykins -- yup. In one of my lines, I'm pretty sure that the second wife arrived in America, the first interred in Ireland.

When family naming patterns include 4 first names for males, and seriously 3 for females, yeah you'll see this stuff.

The more traumatic the times, the fewer the records for the most part.

Sigh.

jmho ymmv lrr

My great aunt used to bemoan the reuse of the same first names. A widower with multiple wives would each have a son named after the father, so you didn't know which John is THE John.
Luckily, most of my family line had smalls families and they moved around a lot, so there was very little endogamy. The most scandalous thing I found was my great great grandmother was a teacher and she married one of her students.

 

[cvaldez1975]

I feel bad for the folks in recent generations who are getting blindsided with the fact the man who raised them isn't their biological father.
I imagine it's a blow to the dads who had no clue the child wasn't theirs and then they find out, too, especially if the child was conceived during their marriage.

i know several ppl this has happened to and none took it very well.

 

[Alleykins]

Then there's also the issue of children finding out about secret or unknown siblings. At least I had an idea there were more spawn out there, my father used to brag about his fecundity, so it was no big surprise when they started popping out of the woodwork, thanks to these DNA kits. But even knowing hasn't made it any easier. My recently discovered older half brother had a really crappy childhood and could have used our moral support, but our father & his mother robbed him of that connection with their deception. And we could have used his, too. My brother used to cry as a kid because he had no brothers, when, in fact, he did. It wasn't fair, all the way around.

 

[MarziPanda]

The current research on the subject of NPEs indicates that the % ranges from 10-25%, depending on the country. People quote 10% for the US but I personally believe it's more like 20%. There are loads of NPE scenarios, not just affairs. A child being raised thinking their grandparents are their parents, when really their older sister is their mother. Affairs. Rape. Simply getting the timing wrong and thinking one man is the father when another is. Adoption. Donor conceived people. Donor conception isn't something that comes up often in discussions about NPEs but it's an important aspect. There are no federal limits on how many people can be created from one donor. And 95% of the time, there's no paperwork. Some sibling groups I know from Facebook run into the hundreds, almost into the thousands. And that's only the siblings who have taken commercial DNA tests. There's no knowing how many more are out there and have no idea they are donor conceived (most DC people are not told by their parents) and haven't taken DNA tests. The chances of accidental incest are huge.

Donor conception isn't as new as people think, either. It started in the 1940s and really started to get popular from the 1960s onwards. So something like that can really confuse genetic genealogy. I am a DC NPE. In the UK we have limits and keep records, I am part of a group of nine. But it's almost certain that none of us have been told we are DC. I've only found one brother so far. If one of them committed a crime and was uploaded into GEDmatch etc, we'd show up as half siblings. But I wouldn't be able to tell researchers who they were at all and there would be no way to find out. I suppose the same is true of any NPE, whether they be the suspect, the DNA match, or an unidentified victim.

 

[Alleykins]

@MarziPanda - Don't forget the turkey baster. I saw a talk show in the 70s or 80s where one sister agreed to be inseminated with her brother in law's sperm so the other sister and her husband could have a baby. They used a turkey baster for conception, totally outside the medical community. I know this was probably rare, but I'm thinking odd ball scenarios like this happened, too. I'm thinking this child would be told of it's parentage because it was a national TV show.

There's a man in my area who fathered 20+ children with about 15 women. One of my friend's mothers had 2 children with him because she didn't want the first one to be alone, so she went back for another one -while he was still married to his first wife. I truly think some women were using him as a free walking sperm donor clinic, it certainly wasn't for any child support, as he was pretty much tapped out by the first 5 or so baby mamas.

 

[cvaldez1975]

Then there's also the issue of children finding out about secret or unknown siblings. At least I had an idea there were more spawn out there, my father used to brag about his fecundity, so it was no big surprise when they started popping out of the woodwork, thanks to these DNA kits. But even knowing hasn't made it any easier. My recently discovered older half brother had a really crappy childhood and could have used our moral support, but our father & his mother robbed him of that connection with their deception. And we could have used his, too. My brother used to cry as a kid because he had no brothers, when, in fact, he did. It wasn't fair, all the way around.

i have a sister and brother, too. i knew about them but didnt meet them until 2016.