NJ - 18 year old woman planning to move to New Jersey to MARRY her Father

[katydid23]

No. I'm saying that if we want to take something that is currently illegal and make it legal, I would feel better about it if I were guaranteed they would be unable to produce multiple children while knowing they have a 50% chance at several severe problems (many times multiple birth defects combined).
When two unrelated people get married and have kids, severe birth defects and early death can still happen - but they didn't go out of their way to create it. bTW- I absolutely love working with differently abled individuals and hope to someday go back to school for special education.
Also, two consenting adults doing whatever they want behind closed doors and not harming anyone else is none of my business. They could still go on to adopt or have a donor/surrogate mother.

The daughter was 16 when her father began having sex with her. Does that fit your narrative of 'two consenting adults?'

I have been trying hard to figure out why this thread triggers me so much. As an incest survivor, of course it would. But it really really upsets me. And I think it is because my own father was my refuge from my sick uncle. He was someone who NEVER acted sexually towards me. I could give and receive affection that was PURE. So when I think about people accepting as 'normal', a sexual relationship between a child and a parent--it disgusts me. Our kids would all be hyper sexualized/

Is it cool for a mother to begin having sex with her teen sons, because it isn't 'hurting anyone?' PFFTTTTTTT

 

[katydid23]

What is a family? In my opinion, it is a close group of people that love you, and accept you, with no hidden agenda, no strings attached. If we as a society start accepting that parents can groom their children to be their eventual sex partners..... I cannot even imagine how dysfunctional the world would become.

I know what it was like to have an uncles 'love' that was with certain sexual strings attached. It was very confusing because he was our after school babysitter and thus an authority figure. It was like a long nightmare. I don't think that people are thinking this dynamic through when they say that 'no harm is done' when parents have sex with their children. :no:

 

[newone]

The daughter was 16 when her father began having sex with her. Does that fit your narrative of 'two consenting adults?'

I have been trying hard to figure out why this thread triggers me so much. As an incest survivor, of course it would. But it really really upsets me. And I think it is because my own father was my refuge from my sick uncle. He was someone who NEVER acted sexually towards me. I could give and receive affection that was PURE. So when I think about people accepting as 'normal', a sexual relationship between a child and a parent--it disgusts me. Our kids would all be hyper sexualized/

Is it cool for a mother to begin having sex with her teen sons, because it isn't 'hurting anyone?' PFFTTTTTTT

I have been sitting on my hands searching for the ''right'' words to express what you pointed out.

bbm: that's the sacred trust one would wish for every child.

Every child needs trustworthy and safe adults.

o/t perhaps but I have this recurring thought: Today this 18 yr old is the daughter and wishes to become the wife of her father. IF she does have children with him eventually she will realize she's putting those children at risk .....won't they become ''free game''/fresh meat for the predatory father? MOO

 

[daisytrail]

Maybe if you visited some support groups for VICTMS of child abuse, you might have a change of heart. Many of these cases involve incest and the children are true victims. After being routinely raped by my uncle for a few years, as a young child, it has taken decades to try and heal from the shame and ugliness. I don't think that you really understand what you are saying.

Katydid, I am so sorry that you had such a horrible experience. I hope you truly do heal.

 

[Charlie09]

I avoid words like "unnatural". I have no doubt cave men copulated with their daughters quite readily.

Your statement as to what I dislike is true enough, but are you seriously telling me you can't distinguish between a sexual union of parent and child and one between unrelated adults (regardless of genitalia in either case)?

In fact, it is Rick Santorum and his ilk who conflate all relationships based on a single criterion: if it has been traditionally condemned, then it must be all the same.

So wait...what exactly is your argument here

It used to be ok for cave dad's to copulate with their daughters (but not sons) but somewhere along the line it became not ok
There is something inherently wrong with some sexual relationships (but only parent/child relationships)
I have no idea why you'd bring Rick Santorum up - he has no more to do with this conversation than Terrence Patrick Bean does....

 

[bwt42]

Marriage is on the way out so arguing about who can marry who is wasting time. Unless we have morals police to monitor our relationships, society will work this out on its own.

 

[katydid23]

Katydid, I am so sorry that you had such a horrible experience. I hope you truly do heal.

Luckily, I have had a pretty darn good life. But I credit my family, including my father, stepfather and brothers, for helping me to heal. They loved and appreciated me for many things and many attributes. And NONE of them involved them wanting any kind of future sexual satisfaction with me. If so, my life would not have evolved into that of a happily married, stay at home mom, of two great kids. I probably would have become a stripper or sex worker, something, like many victims of child sexual abuse do.

 

[daisytrail]

Luckily, I have had a pretty darn good life. But I credit my family, including my father, stepfather and brothers, for helping me to heal. They loved and appreciated me for many things and many attributes. And NONE of them involved them wanting any kind of future sexual satisfaction with me. If so, my life would not have evolved into that of a happily married, stay at home mom, of two great kids. I probably would have become a stripper or sex worker, something, like many victims of child sexual abuse do.

I think the age a child is when these things happen makes a difference, as well as having supportive adults. Sometimes no amount of love and effort helps. You were lucky it helped for you.

 

[greycoupon]

So this story... I'm reading it.

In fifth grade I dated a boy for two years. But one night he got drunk and had sex with a girl who ended up pregnant. It ****ed everything up. I told him he had to go and be with this girl and take care of the kid.

She ended up falling asleep with a cigarette in her mouth and their house burned down, so she left town with the kid and never came back. I supported him through that and we ended up half-*advertiser censored* dating, then my mom found letters we had written to each other about making out. She said things were getting too serious and sexual and took me out of class and homeschooled me for a while.

So her bf got another girl pregnant in 7th grade? When they were 12 or 13? Nevermind the rest of that.

No. I had a girlfriend in middle school and that was the most major sexual experience I’d ever had. But she was very religious and every time we were intimate she would sob and read me verses out of the Bible.

Alrighty.

That night we were play-wrestling in the room I was going to sleep in and I bit him. He was wearing a pair of basketball shorts and a tank top and after I bit him I could see goose bumps pop up from his toes to his shoulders. Then he pinched my inner thigh and I got goose bumps.

We stopped and said that we didn’t know what was going on but admitted that we had strong feelings for each other. We discussed whether it was wrong and then we kissed. And then we made out, and then we made love for the first time. That was when I lost my virginity.

This sure sounds realistic.

We made sure to move out of the girlfriend’s immediately because we knew we couldn’t be together there. Before her, he was with a woman for eight years and she’s now our roommate. Talk about awkward for the first three months!

So wait, the ex gf before the dad's last ex gf is now their roommate. And she is okay with this? Again, sounds sooo realistic.

My grandmother and grandfather — my fiancé’s parents — are going to attend and my grandpa will give me away. The tables will have bouquets of trees without leaves to represent our marriage, which will be like a growing tree. My dress will be black.

It was nice she clarified the relationship. AGain all of these people being okay with this situation??

We recently got tattoos together. Mine says, “I love my peanut butter,” because I call him my peanut butter. His says, “I love my jelly,” because that’s what he calls me. What father and daughter do you know who have names for each other and tattoos like that? She just said, “Oh, those are cute.” She plays dumb about it.

Even for a non-incestous couple those stats are stupid and I am someone who loves ink.

The only thing we do independently is go to work and school. He’s a maintenance man and I am studying cosmetology, but other than that we are together 24/7.

Well, that's healthy for any couple!

Were you ever sexually abused when you were younger?
No, and my dad has told me that the thought of being involved with me when I was little is appalling to him. Once when I was about 4 I was in a golf cart with my great-great grandma’s husband and he touched me on my inner leg. It wasn’t super-aggressive, but I felt very uncomfortable about it. I told my father and he called my mom and they took me to a children’s hospital to get examined. There were no signs of abuse.

Great-great grandma's husband? I'm trying to grasp the math but I guess it's possible if everyone was having babies at 15 or 16.

This girl was incredibly messed up before her dad ever came back into her life. I'm more inclined to think the story is BS. SO much of it defies logic and not just the relationship itself.

 

[daisytrail]

I once knew a schizophrenic woman, who was also extremely dissociative. She explained to me how she ended up being an inmate in a juvenile prison as follows:

"My uncle, the one who sexually abused me, he put a gun in his mouth and was trying to pull the trigger with his toe. He couldn't do it and asked me to do it, so I did. I was twelve. That is why I went to the State Home."

The State Home is our town's name for the recently closed juvenile detention center. What I wanted to know, of course, was did the uncle die. She said, "Oh yes. He was my favorite uncle." This is when I believed her.

 

[newone]

So this story... I'm reading it.



So her bf got another girl pregnant in 7th grade? When they were 12 or 13? Nevermind the rest of that.



Alrighty.



This sure sounds realistic.



So wait, the ex gf before the dad's last ex gf is now their roommate. And she is okay with this? Again, sounds sooo realistic.



It was nice she clarified the relationship. AGain all of these people being okay with this situation??



Even for a non-incestous couple those stats are stupid and I am someone who loves ink.



Well, that's healthy for any couple!



Great-great grandma's husband? I'm trying to grasp the math but I guess it's possible if everyone was having babies at 15 or 16.

This girl was incredibly messed up before her dad ever came back into her life. I'm more inclined to think the story is BS. SO much of it defies logic and not just the relationship itself.

I'm confused -- where's the link for this?

 

[Nova]

So wait...what exactly is your argument here

It used to be ok for cave dad's to copulate with their daughters (but not sons) but somewhere along the line it became not ok
There is something inherently wrong with some sexual relationships (but only parent/child relationships)
I have no idea why you'd bring Rick Santorum up - he has no more to do with this conversation than Terrence Patrick Bean does....

Rick Santorum has appointed himself as the "slippery slope" spokesman and keeps insisting that if gay marriage is legal, then we can have no laws against bestiality or incest. Fortunately, Rick isn't too bright and the law itself has little problem in distinguishing between the different nature of these oddities.

My argument in the post you quoted is merely that "natural" and "unnatural' are problematic words; for that reason I choose to avoid them. Human homosexuality is "unnatural' in that is it practiced to a large extent only by a minority of persons; however, it is also "natural" in that it occurs in all human cultures, all great ape communities and many other species, from seagulls to dolphins.

The fact that "homosexuality", "adult incest", "bestiality" and "plural marriage" are all minority sexual orientations does NOT mean they cannot be distinguished legally based on their impact on and lack of benefit to society.

(P.S. I don't actually know if there was a time before the "incest taboo" became wired into our psyches; but now that we know the behavior is all too common, it seems reasonable to believe there was an "incest is ok" era long ago.)

 

[LinasK]

I once knew a schizophrenic woman, who was also extremely dissociative. She explained to me how she ended up being an inmate in a juvenile prison as follows:

"My uncle, the one who sexually abused me, he put a gun in his mouth and was trying to pull the trigger with his toe. He couldn't do it and asked me to do it, so I did. I was twelve. That is why I went to the State Home."

The State Home is our town's name for the recently closed juvenile detention center. What I wanted to know, of course, was did the uncle die. She said, "Oh yes. He was my favorite uncle." This is when I believed her.

Uh, NO! If she killed him, it was because he sexually abused her, not because he was her "favorite uncle", nor because he asked her to pull the trigger.

 

[Nova]

Marriage is on the way out so arguing about who can marry who is wasting time. Unless we have morals police to monitor our relationships, society will work this out on its own.

One might make a case that LIFE-LONG marriage is shaky, given our divorce rate. But I'm not at all sure the institution is on its long legs.

Gay people, on the whole, take it very seriously, which is just one reason why the "Defense of Marriage" folks ought to be on our side.

Basically what has changed among heterosexuals is that women are increasingly well-educated and have their own sources of income. They don't have to stay in bad and abusive marriages.

Now if men would only get the message...

 

[Nova]

Luckily, I have had a pretty darn good life. But I credit my family, including my father, stepfather and brothers, for helping me to heal. They loved and appreciated me for many things and many attributes. And NONE of them involved them wanting any kind of future sexual satisfaction with me. If so, my life would not have evolved into that of a happily married, stay at home mom, of two great kids. I probably would have become a stripper or sex worker, something, like many victims of child sexual abuse do.

katy, I am very close to one of my sister's two children (now young adults). I feel very strongly that uncle or aunt/niece or nephew should be added to the relationships that should be illegal.

 

[LinasK]

katy, I am very close to one of my sister's two children (now young adults). I feel very strongly that uncle or aunt/niece or nephew should be added to the relationships that should be illegal.

Nova, it is. It falls under the definition of Incest.

 

[daisytrail]

Uh, NO! If she killed him, it was because he sexually abused her, not because he was her "favorite uncle", nor because he asked her to pull the trigger.

Maybe that was an subconscious motivation, but you sort of had to have known her. I have never met anyone else remotely like her. I do not know what she was like when she was young, but by the time I knew her, dissociative disorder, schizophrenia, and drugs had taken quite a toll. She had such a disordered mind. One time she was one person and the next time she was another. She really needed to be in care of some sort.

 

[Charlie09]

Rick Santorum has appointed himself as the "slippery slope" spokesman and keeps insisting that if gay marriage is legal, then we can have no laws against bestiality or incest. Fortunately, Rick isn't too bright and the law itself has little problem in distinguishing between the different nature of these oddities.

My argument in the post you quoted is merely that "natural" and "unnatural' are problematic words; for that reason I choose to avoid them. Human homosexuality is "unnatural' in that is it practiced to a large extent only by a minority of persons; however, it is also "natural" in that it occurs in all human cultures, all great ape communities and many other species, from seagulls to dolphins.

The fact that "homosexuality", "adult incest", "bestiality" and "plural marriage" are all minority sexual orientations does NOT mean they cannot be distinguished legally based on their impact on and lack of benefit to society.

(P.S. I don't actually know if there was a time before the "incest taboo" became wired into our psyches; but now that we know the behavior is all too common, it seems reasonable to believe there was an "incest is ok" era long ago.)

eh, it's apparent that even hard wired taboos become ok with enough bullying and money behind it...we'll see what "tabooed walls" come tumbling in the next several years.

 

[LinasK]

Maybe that was an subconscious motivation, but you sort of had to have known her. I have never met anyone else remotely like her. I do not know what she was like when she was young, but by the time I knew her, dissociative disorder, schizophrenia, and drugs had taken quite a toll. She had such a disordered mind. One time she was one person and the next time she was another. She really needed to be in care of some sort.

He could've been her favorite uncle prior to the attacks, mine was. And possibly being sexually attacked could have caused her to use drugs/become schizophrenic/DID???
Once my uncle molested me, I never let him be alone with me again no matter how hard my family tried to push him together with me at family gatherings. "Here sit around the corner and show your uncle the pictures", "Drive your uncle", etc.,etc. I refused no matter how much trouble it might get me in.
I also briefly worked with some adolescents who were abused. Many had become drug users. I'm convinced it was their way to deal with it.

 

[HMSHood]

That is incest and that is sick! uke: