NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

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Absolutely never said that. I'm saying it is going to keep happening, because people are seething with anger in communities that are overwhelmed with mentally ill homeless populations. Just because I acknowledge what I see with my own eyes, doesn't mean I agree with it. In my community there has been several killings of homeless people, for no reason other than rage. It was heartbreaking to read of these attacks, and disturbing to know people can kill a person who is just minding their business in their tent. So do we ignore that mentality ill homeless are at a greater risk for being victims of violence? I tried pointing it out, and got judged by you. I guess we should not talk about the issue and keep leaving mentally ill people on the street where they struggle to survive, are victims of crimes, and sometimes create unsafe conditions for themselves, and others? I personally would rather see people get help so they are not in vulnerable conditions in the first place.
BBM - I get what you're saying. I'll +1 that - mentally ill people are more dangerous to themselves than anyone else, statistically speaking. When meds to treat mental illness came onto the scene and asylums were closed en masse worldwide as a result, I think the baby was thrown out with the bathwater, well and truly. People with mental illness are simply now left to their own devices, they may or may not be able to stick to a regimen of psychiatric drugs and other treatments for all manner of reasons, and the end result is all too often tragic. While forced institutionalisation was also wrong, the answer shouldn't be 'just let them roam alone without any help'. There should be more of a middle ground. Comprehensive, safe, funded and person focused inpatient care should be a thing, where its not treated like a punishment or like imprisonment.
fyi I'm not talking about like, depression/anxiety. I'm talking people in active psychosis, people with schizophrenia, etc.

You can't force someone into a mental health facility nor can you force someone to take medication. I really don't know the solution to the mental health crisis, its just really sad.

Just with what has been posted here, this poor man did nothing to need to be "retrained".

No, you can't. But you can make it enough of a safe space and pleasant environment that people don't hate the idea of going. I worked once in a psych facility - that was private and extremely expensive and as a result only the wealthy could afford it - but it was really nice! The kind of place people would happily check themselves into. Everyone deserves access to that.

This in no way takes away from the fact that the person who killed him should be prosecuted for that, please let that be clear.
 
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IMO we're seeing in major cities all over (including Toronto, Canada) a collision between people who have serious mental health problems & pose no danger to the public (and have the same right to use public space as everyone else) + people who various serious issues & pose a threat + public transit users who are on high alert because of incidents who have left people severely injured or dead.

The justified concerns of those who are seeing violent/fatal incidents on public transit are all too often met with 'clucking' about how increased law enforcement is inappropriate, we just need to focus on the 'underlying issues' (which have been present for decades in most major cities yet remain unresolved). This just fuel anger.

For the other big city dwellers out there - I would say i'm very cross-pressured when it comes to public safety and increase of violence on public transit.

On the one hand i'm angry that i don't feel like it's being take seriously enough (even though a 13 year old was randomly stabbed to death, 2 women were stabbed to death, a woman died after being doused with gasoline and set on fire, and there are other terrifying incidents!). Saying 'we can't focus on policing, we need to focus on the underlying issues' just promotes outrage.

On the other hand - i'm frustrated by people who are 'over extending' and trying to criminalize or demonize non-violent people just b/c they don't appreciate their presence in the public space. (this issue is an under-discussed issue but is actually huge for me personally).
 
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You can't force someone into a mental health facility nor can you force someone to take medication. I really don't know the solution to the mental health crisis, its just really sad.

Just with what has been posted here, this poor man did nothing to need to be "retrained".
You actually can do this (at least in Canada/US) - but it's serious business to do that - requires court intervention and amounts to a very serious intervention into personal liberty. And even if you do force someone into a mental health facility, it doesn't accomplish much if they're then released back into a life of severe mental illness (and likely homelessness).

Unfortunately, in the absence of appropriate mental health services, it's often left to the police to intervene - and you end up with the additional complexity of funnelling people who are mentally ill into the criminal justice system and creating the possibility of criminal convictions + sentences for people where that is really not an appropriate result.
 
Sounds like it was a good thing that fine young Marine was there.

His arrest record has nothing to do with his extrajudicial execution.
 
[
Sounds like it was a good thing that fine young Marine was there.


Why was it a good thing? The “fine young Marine” had no knowledge of Jordan Neely’s arrest history and none of his arrests were for capital offenses. No one had been threatened. Yet this “fine young Marine” took it upon himself to become judge, juror and executioner…a wannabe hero….for no compelling reason other than that he could. Everyone knows that chokeholds can kill. Derek Chauvin certainly taught us all that when he murdered George Floyd. No, this was not a fine young marine @SuziQ/Marine Mom. I sincerely hope you would not be praising your son if he had killed Neely. It is nothing to be proud of or celebrate.
JMO
 
BBM - I get what you're saying. I'll +1 that - mentally ill people are more dangerous to themselves than anyone else, statistically speaking. When meds to treat mental illness came onto the scene and asylums were closed en masse worldwide as a result, I think the baby was thrown out with the bathwater, well and truly. People with mental illness are simply now left to their own devices, they may or may not be able to stick to a regimen of psychiatric drugs and other treatments for all manner of reasons, and the end result is all too often tragic. While forced institutionalisation was also wrong, the answer shouldn't be 'just let them roam alone without any help'. There should be more of a middle ground. Comprehensive, safe, funded and person focused inpatient care should be a thing, where its not treated like a punishment or like imprisonment.
fyi I'm not talking about like, depression/anxiety. I'm talking people in active psychosis, people with schizophrenia, etc.



No, you can't. But you can make it enough of a safe space and pleasant environment that people don't hate the idea of going. I worked once in a psych facility - that was private and extremely expensive and as a result only the wealthy could afford it - but it was really nice! The kind of place people would happily check themselves into. Everyone deserves access to that.

This in no way takes away from the fact that the person who killed him should be prosecuted for that, please let that be clear.
Last year, on my way to work, I saw a known homeless woman walking down the street completely nude, oblivious to everyone driving by honking and pointing. I was so sad for her, because she wasn't in her right mind, and I thought how embarrassed she would probably be if she were stabilized and learned of what she had done. Police had her put her clothes on and sent her on her way. Since then she has continued to do this and gets arrested and released same day. Now imagine instead, a nice room with a bed, good food, and caring specialits that could diagnose and possibly treat her issues. What if that opened up the door to a whole new life, where she was able to stabilize and get a job, or go to school, have some quality of life instead of in and out of jail for aimlessly wandering around town naked.
I don't know if possibly people don't understand the conditions people are living in on the streets, how some don't even realize they have soiled themselves, they walk out into traffic, etc, and not want some kind of forced, yet compassionate, care for them. If someone can't care for themselves, it is society's responsibility to care for them until they are able to care for themselves imo. Can anyone who claims we shouldn't just lock people up for severe mental health issues honestly say this is how they would want an unwell friend or family member to live? Living in piles of trash and feces, disoriented, and paranoid? We need to do better.
 
No. I'm dead serious.
i've posted several MSM links of the facts as they are currently known and I have also watched several videos of his death.
Saying George Floyd comes to mind is not an exaggeration.
Well the facts are Neely was dangerous in the past. Had a current warrant for assault. was acting in a threatening manner. Are people supposed to wait to get beaten before they fight back? The time to take action is when you feel threatened. I watched the same video. Looks to me the Marine was controlling him the best he could. I doubt killing the man was on his mind. And the last time I checked, a civilian is allowed to use a choke hold to protect themselves and others. Imo.
 
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Not that complicated. If someone gives off bad vibes you, move along. It's worked for me my whole life, haven't killed anyone.
 
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Not that complicated. If someone gives off bad vibes you, move along. It's worked for me my whole life, haven't killed anyone.
I do not believe death was expected or wanted. There was no security available..people are assaulted frequently on transit. People with mental health issues live and ride on transit, it is a social society problem...moo
 
I do not believe death was expected or wanted. There was no security available..people are assaulted frequently on transit. People with mental health issues live and ride on transit, it is a social society problem...moo
A trained marine is not expected to know that holding a bloke in a choke hold for 15 solid minutes will not kill him?
The only person that was assaulted was the dead guy according to all reports available to date.
 
More of this type of thing is going to continue to happen in cities that are are overrun with mentally ill homeless people. People don't feel safe and are told to just put up with people threatening and screaming at them. It's scary as hell, especially being a woman, when I have homeless go off on me for walking by. People are tired of it, and unfortunately, are going to start taking the law into their own hands. The humane thing to do would be to get people into inpatient treatment. They need help and leaving them to the streets shouldn't be the solution. Do you think people are praising the marine because they enjoy someone dying, or because every single day they have to deal with crime, trash, drugs, and outrageous behavior and no one in charge will do a thing about it?
There have been situations where people are actually in danger and no one says anything. If someone is being assaulted that’s when you want someone to step in. Chokeholds are dangerous and shouldn’t be used by people unless it’s a life or death situation. This man seemed unstable and not a threat to others. A marine should know their own strength.
 

Marines are educated on chokes.

When executed properly, a blood choke takes between eight and thirteen seconds for the opponent to lose consciousness. When a blood choke is incorrectly performed, most likely the student is applying pressure to the windpipe and executing an air choke. 1. SAFETY CONSIDERATIONS. To prevent injury to students during training, ensure the following: a. Never execute a choke at full force or full speed during training because the carotid artery could collapse. b. Once a technique is applied to the point the student is uncomfortable, the student must "tap out" to indicate to his aggressor to immediately release pressure or stop the technique. The student "taps out" by firmly tapping his hand several times on any part of the aggressor's body, tapping on him or herself, on the ground or by verbally saying “tap”. The student should never go to the point of becoming light headed during a choke. c. Do not hold a choke for more than five seconds in training. d. Do not apply pressure to the opponent's throat during training because the trachea and windpipe can be crushed. During training ensure students apply the procedures properly for blood chokes and do not execute air chokes. 2. PURPOSE. The purpose of chokes is to render your opponent unconscious or gain control of a close combat situation through less than lethal force.

Worth a read because this suggests one thing and one thing only.

Vigilantism!
 
There have been situations where people are actually in danger and no one says anything. If someone is being assaulted that’s when you want someone to step in. Chokeholds are dangerous and shouldn’t be used by people unless it’s a life or death situation. This man seemed unstable and not a threat to others. A marine should know their own strength.
Particularly when they are trained in the specifics. Recall he approached Jordan from behind.

(1) REAR CHOKE. (a) Purpose. The rear choke is a blood choke performed when you are behind the opponent; the opponent is on the ground, or when you are taking the opponent to the ground. DEMONSTRATE/IMITATE: (b) Technique. To teach the rear choke, you do not begin by having students execute the entire technique. Instead, you walk students through the technique, step by step, beginning from a kneeling position and working up to a standing position. To teach the rear choke, have the student: (c) From a Kneeling Position. (1) Begin with the opponent kneeling on the deck and you standing behind him. (2) With your right arm, reach over the opponent's right shoulder and hook the bend of your arm around his neck. Ensure the opponent's windpipe is positioned within the bend of your arm, but pressure is not being exerted on his windpipe. (3) Your chest should be against your opponent's back. (4) With your left hand, clasp both hands together, palm-on-palm, with your right palm facing the deck. (5) Exert pressure with your biceps and forearm on both sides of the opponent's neck on his carotid arteries. Pressure should be exerted with the forearm along the radial bone and the knuckles of the right hand should be facing straight up.
(6) Ensure the opponent's windpipe is positioned within the bend of your arm, but pressure is not being exerted on his windpipe. (7) While maintaining pressure with your biceps and forearm on both sides of the neck, draw the opponent closer to you by drawing your right arm in. (8) To increase the effectiveness of the choke, apply forward pressure to the back of the opponent's head with your head by bending your neck forward. DEMONSTRATE/IMITATE: (d) From the Standing Position. If the opponent is shorter than you, the procedures are the same as from a kneeling position. If the opponent is taller than you or the opponent is wearing bulky gear or a pack on his back, you must get the opponent in a position where you can reach around his neck and gain leverage to execute the choke. (1) Begin by standing behind the opponent. (2) Break the opponent down by reaching over the opponent's right shoulder with you right arm as you hook his chin, face, or neck with your hand, wrist, or forearm. (3) Step or push on the area behind the opponent's knee with your foot. This will off-balance the opponent and cause him to bend at the knees and fall forward. (4) As the opponent is brought down, pull back on the opponent's chin and slide your right forearm around his neck, hooking the bend of your arm around his neck. (5) You are now in position to execute the choke and the steps are the same as from the kneeling position. (2) Figure-Four Variation. (a) Purpose. The figure-four is a variation of the rear choke and it allows you to gain more leverage on the rear choke. If you cannot secure the rear choke, you may apply the figure-four variation to increase the pressure of the choke on the opponent.


15 minutes!!!!
 
So what does NY penal code say about use of deadly force?

S 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use
physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she
reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself, herself or a
third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or
imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person, unless:
(a) The latter's conduct was provoked by the actor with intent to
cause physical injury to another person; or
(b) The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case the
use of physical force is nevertheless justifiable if the actor has
withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such
withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing
the incident by the use or threatened imminent use of unlawful physical
force; or
(c) The physical force involved is the product of a combat by
agreement not specifically authorized by law.
2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person
under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
(a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or
about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the
actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with
complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the
necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no
duty to retreat if he or she is:
(i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
(ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police
officer or a peace officer at the latter`s direction, acting pursuant to
section 35.30; or
(b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal
sexual act or robbery; or
(c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that
the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of
section 35.20.

S 35.20 Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises and
in defense of a person in the course of burglary.
1. Any person may use physical force upon another person when he or
she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate
what he or she reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted
commission by such other person of a crime involving damage to premises.
Such person may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly
physical force, which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary for
such purpose, and may use deadly physical force if he or she reasonably
believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or
attempted commission of arson.
2. A person in possession or control of any premises, or a person
licensed or privileged to be thereon or therein, may use physical force
upon another person when he or she reasonably believes such to be
necessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes to
be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a
criminal trespass upon such premises. Such person may use any degree of
physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he or she
reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and may use deadly
physical force in order to prevent or terminate the commission or
attempted commission of arson, as prescribed in subdivision one, or in
the course of a burglary or attempted burglary, as prescribed in
subdivision three.
3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to
be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that
another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such
dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other
person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to
prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such
burglary.
4. As used in this section, the following terms have the following
meanings:
(a) The terms "premises," "building" and "dwelling" have the meanings
prescribed in section 140.00;
(b) Persons "licensed or privileged" to be in buildings or upon other
premises include, but are not limited to:
(i) police officers or peace officers acting in the performance of
their duties; and
(ii) security personnel or employees of nuclear powered electric
generating facilities located within the state who are employed as part
of any security plan approved by the federal operating license agencies
acting in the performance of their duties at such generating facilities.
For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "nuclear powered electric
generating facility" shall mean a facility that generates electricity
using nuclear power for sale, directly or indirectly, to the public,
including the land upon which the facility is located and the safety and
security zones as defined under federal regulations.


So do we still believe these conditions were met in order for a prosecution to proceed or not?

What is the delay?
 
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