NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[kittythehare]

I dug out the earlier post that contains a link to a video of Neely that somebody made on April1.
He seems to be using the same words that he allegedly used just before he was killed..

I read it like a mantra for him... it didn't need to make sense but provided him with something he needed..

NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

I agree that it probably wasn’t racially motivated in the sense that I doubt Penny was targeting him *because* of his color. But I can understand the perception on the part of people of color that it *was* racially motivated because of both history and current attitudes and events like the...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Reasonable & Just]

I dug out the earlier post that contains a link to a video of Neely that somebody made on April1.
He seems to be using the same words that he allegedly used just before he was killed..

I read it like a mantra for him... it didn't need to make sense but provided him with something he needed..

NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

I agree that it probably wasn’t racially motivated in the sense that I doubt Penny was targeting him *because* of his color. But I can understand the perception on the part of people of color that it *was* racially motivated because of both history and current attitudes and events like the...

www.websleuths.com

That is interesting and very sad...and infuriating that we don't do much of anything productive for people who are mentally ill in order to protect them and others.

 

[kittythehare]

That is interesting and very sad...and infuriating that we don't do much of anything productive for people who are mentally ill in order to protect them and others.

Need to figure out what happened to him in the treatment centre , if anything.. that caused him to run after 15 months of sobriety..
I don't really believe anybody is past help unless their bodies are completely whacked out but the resources simply are not there.
It's a big city problem and even though major advances have been made in treating addiction and the US is great and progressive in it's thinking, the resources are simply not being provided.

Would he have done better in a smaller treatment centre in a quieter area of the state?
Maybe.
We'll never know.
A humane solution would require a massive cash influx providing care and housing the lost ones.
But in every country in the world that I know of, governments are baulking at the costs and dragging their heels..

In Ireland a couple of years back, probably still, treatment centres required the addict to arrive fully detoxed.
People die on waiting lists and methadone lists..

I digress.

If blame is to be apportioned and he has been charged so it is, to an extent, I think it needs to be directed towards the man who compressed his throat/larynx to such an extent that it killed him.

That is all.
The Pennys and the Neelys of this world do not belong to homogeneous classes of inate good or evil either.

 

[10ofRods]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

I don't think schizophrenia is a choice. It is a biological, genetically determined disorder.

A conditional gene-based association framework integrating isoform-level eQTL data reveals new susceptibility genes for schizophrenia

An improved conditional gene-based association analysis framework guided by multiple variant-gene mapping strategies was built and evaluated based on its performance in predicting the potential susceptibility isoforms, genes, and tissues of schizophrenia.

elifesciences.org

What genes are differentially expressed in individuals with schizophrenia? A systematic review - Molecular Psychiatry

Schizophrenia is a severe, complex mental disorder characterized by a combination of positive symptoms, negative symptoms, and impaired cognitive function. Schizophrenia is highly heritable (~80%) with multifactorial etiology and complex polygenic genetic architecture. Despite the large number...

www.nature.com

^ this one reviews all the various genes known to cause schizophrenia; some people have more than one

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.31887/DCNS.2010.12.3/atiwari?scroll=top&needAccess=true&role=tab

^ this one compares schizophrenic genes to bipolar genes as well as giving the more recent findings.

I have plenty more citations, but those are recent.

It's humbling to realize, I believe, that some of us are luckier than others when it comes to our genes. Genes are not optional.

 

[wary]

Need to figure out what happened to him in the treatment centre , if anything.. that caused him to run after 15 months of sobriety..
I don't really believe anybody is past help unless their bodies are completely whacked out but the resources simply are not there.
It's a big city problem and even though major advances have been made in treating addiction and the US is great and progressive in it's thinking, the resources are simply not being provided.

Would he have done better in a smaller treatment centre in a quieter area of the state?
Maybe.
We'll never know.
A humane solution would require a massive cash influx providing care and housing the lost ones.
But in every country in the world that I know of, governments are baulking at the costs and dragging their heels..

In Ireland a couple of years back, probably still, treatment centres required the addict to arrive fully detoxed.
People die on waiting lists and methadone lists..

I digress.

If blame is to be apportioned and he has been charged so it is, to an extent, I think it needs to be directed towards the man who compressed his throat/larynx to such an extent that it killed him.

That is all.
The Pennys and the Neelys of this world do not belong to homogeneous classes of inate good or evil either.

Wasn’t his 15 months of sobriety caused by his being locked up? In that case, I’d think that what caused him to run was that he was no longer locked up.

 

[ColyH]

Penny was way more aggressive than he should have been. Someone with the kind of training should have been able to handle Neeley easily without resorting to the tactic he used. Many people don't understand that self defense isn't choking the life out of a defensless man, firing your gun on an unarmed individual who stepped in your yard, or getting your revenge on someone even if they deserved it.

 

[kittythehare]

Wasn’t his 15 months of sobriety caused by his being locked up? In that case, I’d think that what caused him to run was that he was no longer locked up.

Yes.
He was being fed found and medicated and seemed to be in prettygood shape at his plea hearing.
Might have worked had he been referred to a closed treatment centre.
I'm not sure why that didn't happen, probably because beds are at a premium... that's just me speculating.

I don't believe he should have been free to just leave when the going got rough or he missed taking his prescribed meds for a few days..

 

[10ofRods]

Yes.
He was being fed found and medicated and seemed to be in prettygood shape at his plea hearing.
Might have worked had he been referred to a closed treatment centre.
I'm not sure why that didn't happen, probably because beds are at a premium... that's just me speculating.

I don't believe he should have been free to just leave when the going got rough or he missed taking his prescribed meds for a few days..

Which explains Neely's tirade about wanting to do something that would get him locked up again. It's a really common thing for drug users AND schizophrenics to say. Further, many schizophrenics become street drug users to ease their symptoms. In jail or mental hospital, they can get drugs (legal ones) AND be contained so that they don't hurt people when they are psychotic. Why NYC can't figure out how to get 50 seriously ill homeless people into locked facilities (esp. when they are all committing crimes, I cannot figure out - but San Francisco is, IMO, even worse). SF has got a new DA and Police Chief, who will at least occasionally file charges (the previous DA refused to file any charges against anyone and I know from personal experience that SF"s homicide clearance rate is poor)

IMO.

 

[kittythehare]

Which explains Neely's tirade about wanting to do something that would get him locked up again. It's a really common thing for drug users AND schizophrenics to say. Further, many schizophrenics become street drug users to ease their symptoms. In jail or mental hospital, they can get drugs (legal ones) AND be contained so that they don't hurt people when they are psychotic. Why NYC can't figure out how to get 50 seriously ill homeless people into locked facilities (esp. when they are all committing crimes, I cannot figure out - but San Francisco is, IMO, even worse). SF has got a new DA and Police Chief, who will at least occasionally file charges (the previous DA refused to file any charges against anyone and I know from personal experience that SF"s homicide clearance rate is poor)

IMO.

upthread, there was a piece about how he could not forgive himself for going to school that day while his mother was dead in a suitcase. It was where his mind broke, that he had gone to school and she was in that suitcase already dead..
he was 14 and he started exhibiting symptoms of mental illness almost immediately.
Quite likely latent schizophrenia manifesting because of her murder, i don't think he ever went to school again.

I wonder too if the throwing down of his jacket was a flashback to when he did the Michael Jackson impressions and he would throw his hat on the floor as part of his dance.

NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

On the afternoon of May 1, 2023, former Michael Jackson impersonator Jordan Neely began acting in a "hostile and aggressive manner" while riding the F train in Manhattan. Sources say that he threw his jacket on the ground which made passengers move away. A witness said that Neely "started...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Ontario Mom]

"In short, he knew better but he didn't do better."

It's easy to wrap it all up like that (even if it's true) but, it's never really that "easy".
No one really knows how they'll react in a scary situation until they're in it.

I agree that Penny was most likely trained better, but when adrenaline and maybe even some fear take over, training goes out the window. I mean, "training" is one thing... applying that to a real life threatening situation is completely different.

Knowing better but not doing better is something pretty much all of us can admit to, but somehow a 24 year old young man is being held to a different standard. He may be former military but the guy is human just like the rest of us.

jmo

 

[10ofRods]

upthread, there was a piece about how he could not forgive himself for going to school that day while his mother was dead in a suitcase. It was where his mind broke, that he had gone to school and she was in that suitcase already dead..
he was 14 and he started exhibiting symptoms of mental illness almost immediately.
Quite likely latent schizophrenia manifesting because of her murder, i don't think he ever went to school again.

I wonder too if the throwing down of his jacket was a flashback to when he did the Michael Jackson impressions and he would throw his hat on the floor as part of his dance.

NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

On the afternoon of May 1, 2023, former Michael Jackson impersonator Jordan Neely began acting in a "hostile and aggressive manner" while riding the F train in Manhattan. Sources say that he threw his jacket on the ground which made passengers move away. A witness said that Neely "started...

www.websleuths.com

I agree about the trauma triggering the schizophrenia. Even mere sleep deprivation and the rigors of military training trigger schizophrenia in those so predisposed. One can have the genes for schizophrenia and never acquire the illness; but one does not get the illness without having the genes.

Severe stress triggers schizophrenia. We know this in part due to research on our veterans. Schizophrenia has a window from about 14 to 30, with the peak at around 18-23. There is also a late onset version (with a different gene). Most soldiers go in during the age where schizophrenia (and bipolar) peak. And then, the stress (particularly during war) triggers the gene.

There *are* treatments, but...we all know how that goes in the real world. To me, this case should have resulted in a conservatorship (long term care). I don't even know if NY does that much.

IMO.

 

[kittythehare]

I agree about the trauma triggering the schizophrenia. Even mere sleep deprivation and the rigors of military training trigger schizophrenia in those so predisposed. One can have the genes for schizophrenia and never acquire the illness; but one does not get the illness without having the genes.

Severe stress triggers schizophrenia. We know this in part due to research on our veterans. Schizophrenia has a window from about 14 to 30, with the peak at around 18-23. There is also a late onset version (with a different gene). Most soldiers go in during the age where schizophrenia (and bipolar) peak. And then, the stress (particularly during war) triggers the gene.

There *are* treatments, but...we all know how that goes in the real world. To me, this case should have resulted in a conservatorship (long term care). I don't even know if NY does that much.

IMO.

If that judge had decided to give him a chance at a lesser sentence based upon whatever psych and medical reports she had received at his plea, it is possible he had stabilised to a degree that showed promise, based upon supervised medication and a relatively safe place to lie down, food and company..
she gave it on the proviso that he stay clean for 15 months which I am assuming was the duration of the treatment programme he entered, willingly.

But he was deeply wounded and treatment programmes are raw entities.. and for people suffering from addictions.


Throw in street drugs and he had no chance.. hard to figure the organic from the induced in any picture he subsequently manifested?

I think he definitely needed in treatment.

 

[Cryptic]

Need to figure out what happened to him in the treatment centre , if anything.. that caused him to run after 15 months of sobriety..

Would he have done better in a smaller treatment centre in a quieter area of the state?

I am guessing that he walked out of the treatment center due to: A. He wanted to -and- B. He knew that he faced essentially no consequences for leaving. So.... why stay?

As for relocating the treatment center, it would be near impossible to do so. No quieter area of the state is going to be receptive to a drug / mental health rehabilitation center servicing out of area street people.

 

[IceIce9]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed> He had been arrested 44 times, and that was 44 opportunities for help to be provided for him. I point this out because some are saying he never received mental health help
Neely had been previously arrested 44 times for multiple assaults, attempted child abduction, drugs, and indecent exposure. Officials say he had at least 43 cases of an "aided case," where mental healthcare workers took him in for treatment.

Jordan Neely NYC subway death: Family calls Daniel Penny's statement 'admission of guilt' in their own new statement | abc7ny.com

Jordan%20Neely's%20family%20released%20a%20statement%20Monday%20morning%20in%20response%20to%20the%20one%20that%20Daniel%20Penny%20released%20last%20week.

abc7ny.com

 

[tara83]

I hope that the message is clear to don’t get involved, walk away, don’t protect anyone.

Penny simply was not the person to be the one to react as he didn’t protect anyone as he became judge, jury and executioner.

As a vigilante the civilian has no protections or backing of a LE or a mental health responder.

The message from the city and state is to protect the misguided who end up making the problem worst.

Everyone knows what riding the subway is like and have known for years. The news is that now murderous vigilantes are another fear for the mentally ill.

All imo

How do we know he didn't protect anyone?He had broken an elderly woman's nose so how do we know he wouldn't have gotten violent yet again?

 

[HongKongPhooey]

He had been arrested 44 times, and that was 44 opportunities for help to be provided for him. I point this out because some are saying he never received mental health help
Neely had been previously arrested 44 times for multiple assaults, attempted child abduction, drugs, and indecent exposure. Officials say he had at least 43 cases of an "aided case," where mental healthcare workers took him in for treatment.

Jordan Neely NYC subway death: Family calls Daniel Penny's statement 'admission of guilt' in their own new statement | abc7ny.com

Jordan%20Neely's%20family%20released%20a%20statement%20Monday%20morning%20in%20response%20to%20the%20one%20that%20Daniel%20Penny%20released%20last%20week.

abc7ny.com

From this article.. Neely was under investigation for pushing someone on the tracks the day before.

ETA the live warrant was for assaulting the elderly lady, not for this.

 

[angelainwi]

They didn't need to know about Neely's past violent criminal behavior. His erratic, threatening behavior was being seen in real time in that subway car.

We need more detail on this behavior. I have only seen that he was yelling crazy things and that he threw his jacket on the floor. I have not seen evidence that he directly threatened to hurt anyone. I believe if there was evidence that he was being threatened on a level that would justify someone to actively restrain him in a deadly way that he would not have been charged with manslaughter. Or the distinction may be that charges were warranted because he did not stop the chokehold soon enough thus causing Neely's death.

So this is where we will probably have to agree to disagree until trial.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

ANYONE who pushes someone/attempts to push someone onto the train tracks (whether or not a train is coming) should be incarcerated for the rest of their lives - at the least. Multiple innocent people have been KILLED due to this horrific, violent act.

I'm SICK & TIRED of the authorities coddling criminals & treating them with kid gloves. This is part of the problem here.

 

[angelainwi]

From this article.. Neely was under investigation for pushing someone on the tracks the day before.

ETA the live warrant was for assaulting the elderly lady, not for this.

But did Penny know that? He did not as far as I know. Yes Neely did some HORRIBLE things as I said previously. But no one in the subway car knew of his history.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Folks have reasonably stated that literally no one on that subway car knew about Neely's violent past, on that day. However, that may or may not be true. I'm sure we've all seen comments from subway riders who actually did recognize him, as many regular riders knew him years ago as the MJ impersonator. I mean, how many MSM outlets are still using that picture of him from 10 years ago, dressed as MJ? Also, his violent attacks on senior citizens were both public, as well as his attempted kidnapping of a 7 year old child. All of this was public, so it's a good bet at least some of the regulars that saw him that day, may have known who he was, even if they didn't "know" him.

And I will say again, for those who wrongly assume I'm saying or implying this means he deserved to die or anything else creepy like that, no, that's not what it means at all. Nothing he did warrants a death penalty, and I'm sure we can all agree to that.

All of that being said, we all know his history, now.

Interestingly, if the first time we ever heard about this guy, was when we heard that he punched an elderly woman in the face, knocking her to the ground and breaking her orbital bone...
or first heard about him after he punched an elderly man in the face...
or first heard about him after his failed (thankfully) kidnapping attempt of a 7 year old girl...

then later heard he was killed on the subway by a guy trying to restrain him from acting out his violent threats against passengers, the discussion would look so much different. Night and day, different.

The case threads here that deal with violence against the elderly or child abuctions are proof plenty. In every single one of those cases, the perp is treated with the contempt and disgust they deserve, when they prey on the most defenseless in our society, children and the elderly. Yet, when the person's current status is "victim" instead of "perp" it's a completely different conversation. I find that very interesting indeed.

jmo