OH Columbus LEO Fatally Shoots 13 y/o after armed robbery, teen w 'gun' 14 Sept 2016

[K_Z]

Wow-- very interesting 911 call.

The 911 caller (second person speaking, not the one robbed) describes a GROUP of youths WATCHING the robbery just behind the robber. These were "posturing" and holding their hands in their clothing as if they all had guns.


After hearing this 911 call, it occurs to me that this could have been a gang initiation test. The robber was being "watched" by the other group, to see if he went through with it, possibly. And the take was only $10, and the accent/ dialect/ speaking voice of the man robbed sounds as if he is a white person, while the other speaker on the 911 call giving street directions and late for his or her bus, sounds like he or she has a traditional black accent or dialect.

I know some will think it is not "politically correct" to identify someone's race by their speaking voice, but that's my take on the 911 call-- that the man robbed at gunpoint for $10 is white, and the other bystander/s who called 911 on his behalf, clearly scared of what could happen with the bigger group with guns, are black.** ETA- Just listened again, and the first woman who speaks to 911 clearly identifies the one who was robbed as white, twice, and the one who robbed him as black, in a hoodie.

The second caller clearly knows the neighborhood streets quite well, and gives detailed descriptions of the roads and alleys the group and the robber dispersed to-- gave descriptions and directions of the cars they were getting into, etc.



The description of the events by the second speaker, definitely makes the robbery set up sound like a gang initiation test. The "test" may have been a challenge to rob a white person at gunpoint. JMO.

 

[Tawny]

It's sad that we expect adult decision making behavior from a 13 year old boy.

 

[Tillicum]

Wonder if they have found the grey car and occupants yet. Have we ever heard a 911 call released less than 24 hours after an officer involved shooting before?

 

[rsd1200]

Press conference with Police Chief and Mayor. Pics of the replic gun at the video, and in the link below. Looks exactly like many brands of standard semi-auto pistol-- indistinguishable from a real semi-auto unless you are close enough to handle it and examine it. It had been modified with a laser sight on the underside of the barrel, to increase the authenticity as a real gun.

http://player.tout.com/dispatch/i6g9j4





BBM.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2016/09/15/13-year-old-shooting-update.html

In my opinion, the "problem" is that a 13 year old was committing an armed robbery, fleeing, and pointed a gun at a police officer.

Replica guns are definitely an issue that we should discuss as a nation, but it is not "why" this shooting happened. It's my opinion that there should be laws that mandate that replicas be striped or bright orange or something that is distinguishable from a distance. An orange tip isn't enough. And kids (and adults) who have access to replicas who want to scare others into thinking they are real guns, can easily do this. But that is a completely separate issue from those who commit CRIMES with replica guns.

Unfortunately, the anti-gun lobby will make this entire situation about THE GUN, and not about the CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR of the 13 year old, and his lifestyle and parenting. The bb gun did not commit this crime, the teenager did. I hold his parents accountable for his behavior, as well. My opinion.

BBM
This won't work.
If you are a cop, or anyone else, and you guessed toy, then you are dead.

 

[katydid23]

It's sad that we expect adult decision making behavior from a 13 year old boy.

I think most 13 yr olds know better than to rob a man at gunpoint. He need not be an adult to know that is wrong.

I expect 13 yr olds might eat french fries for breakfast or might play video games instead of doing their homework. That is typical 13 yr old behavior. But going out at night to rob people with realistic BB guns is not 'typical' 13 yr old behavior, in my opinion.

 

[oh_gal]

same link http://centurylink.net/news/read/ar...atally_shot_by_police_after_pulling_out_bb-ap

"mayor andrew ginther appeared to choke up as he called for the community to come together to help ensure children remain safe. He questioned why an eighth-grader would have a replica of a police firearm.

"there is something wrong in this country, and it is bringing its epidemic to our city streets," ginther said. "and a 13-year-old is dead in the city of columbus because of our obsession with guns and violence." bbm

respectfully, mr. Mayor, this teen is not dead because of ^ "our obsession." based on link, he is dead because of his actions giving that leo an objectively reasonable belief/fear that the leo faced imminent danger of great bodily harm or death.

Eta ^ this my initial impression, based on link. Subject to change on release of more info.

Jm2cts

Thank you! There are those who will wish to make this another "us against them" cop killing in cold blood. It is not. It is an example of what could potentially happen to you if rob someone, run from police and then pull out a gun, whether is is real or not. It's called the consequences of your actions.

 

[oh_gal]

It's sad that we expect adult decision making behavior from a 13 year old boy.[/QUOTE

You raise an interesting thought.
However, neither the police nor the person being robbed [probably] knew this young man was 13. If nothing else, it should serve useful to other young men and women that perhaps this isn't the best decision to make. Believe me, they watch and learn from each other. At what age do we know right from wrong?

 

[Dockins]

It's sad that we expect adult decision making behavior from a 13 year old boy.

I don't expect adult decision making, but I do expect them to know right from wrong. I do not expect every 13 year old boy to think he would be shot by the police even if he did all the things alleged. Even when children are taught about consequences, not all believe they will happen to them. I'd also like to know if he was closer to 12 or 14. My boys' teachers in middle school often commented on how impulsive and immature a lot boys were at that age compared to girls, including my own.
If the events reported are accurate, I dont place any blame on the actions from LEOs. It would not be the first time a 13 year old, or even younger, child pointed a gun and shot someone, so age isn't a reason not to protect yourself, IMO. I imagine the officer is having a difficult time as well. It's so terribly sad for everyone involved.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

13 year olds do kill. No matter his age, his actions caused his death.
There is no way LE could know that was a BB gun.
It's time the world stops blaming others.
I hate that this child died. I hate he made those decisions. But he knew they were wrong and dangerous. There is no way he didn't.

JMO

 

[LietKynes]

The same people who will possibly stage protests or actions against law enforcement or a lawsuit... where were they when this teen was out and about at night robbing people ?
Looks like TK was failed by the adults in his life and ultimately he failed himself.

A boy whose name I've forgotten but can look up shot and killed his father's pregnant girlfriend and he was younger than TK --12, I think.
Or that boy who killed his grandmother with her cane ?
A child can do wrong and know it --they may not be able to understand long term consequences --but they CAN know darn well right from wrong.

If this was a gang initiation --- TK was possibly choosing his lifelong path ; making a decision to be a career criminal and might have ended up behind bars until the end of his days.

Now a police officer who was doing his job --has to live with this.
:moo:

 

[Jovi Girl]

Maybe some blame goes to the 19 year old who is hanging out robbing people with a 13 year old.

 

[LietKynes]

Maybe some blame goes to the 19 year old who is hanging out robbing people with a 13 year old.

SABBM

It would be interesting to know what was on the 19 year olds' phone......
Only because if this WAS an "initiation", most young people get together and communicate through their phones/sm.

 

[Margo/Mom]

same link http://centurylink.net/news/read/ar...atally_shot_by_police_after_pulling_out_bb-ap

"Mayor Andrew Ginther appeared to choke up as he called for the community to come together to help ensure children remain safe. He questioned why an eighth-grader would have a replica of a police firearm.

"There is something wrong in this country, and it is bringing its epidemic to our city streets," Ginther said. "And a 13-year-old is dead in the city of Columbus because of our obsession with guns and violence." bbm

Respectfully, Mr. Mayor, this teen is not dead because of ^ "our obsession." Based on link, he is dead because of his actions giving that LEO an objectively reasonable belief/fear that the LEO faced imminent danger of great bodily harm or death.

ETA ^ this my initial impression, based on link. subject to change on release of more info.

JM2cts

Consider this opinion piece, based on analysis of other cases: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-don-police-kill-article-1.2793583

I believe that the Mayor's point about our obsession with guns has to do with how many of them we have, frankly, floating around in ways that make them too easily accessible to 13 year olds who have immature judgement and do stupid things. We also buy in, societally, to the notion that not only does widespread gun possession make us safer, but that it is somehow manly and responsible to "carry." I have seen too much of how this translates to young males, and possibly in particular to young males who are also widely viewed as ****s--regardless of how they dress or act. I am hesitant to pick out any single piece of what must be an enormous bundle of influences in this young man's life, as in the lives of all our young people, as being THE cause of his behaviors. I am certain the causes are many. But we do need to be about repair of those things we can fix.

Too many young people gone.

 

[Margo/Mom]

The same people who will possibly stage protests or actions against law enforcement or a lawsuit... where were they when this teen was out and about at night robbing people ?
Looks like TK was failed by the adults in his life and ultimately he failed himself.

A boy whose name I've forgotten but can look up shot and killed his father's pregnant girlfriend and he was younger than TK --12, I think.
Or that boy who killed his grandmother with her cane ?
A child can do wrong and know it --they may not be able to understand long term consequences --but they CAN know darn well right from wrong.

If this was a gang initiation --- TK was possibly choosing his lifelong path ; making a decision to be a career criminal and might have ended up behind bars until the end of his days.

Now a police officer who was doing his job --has to live with this.
:moo:

HIs family was at the vigil last night. So, too, was his football coach and team-mates.

He lived in a neighborhood that many people with lots of options would shun, owing to the "influences." Went to a school, also, in a district, than many with lots of options, would avoid for their children. I do know a good many kids who have "come through" such situations doing the right things and come out OK. Gone to college, got married, bought houses. But the fact of the matter is, we also lose a lot of them. More than in some other places.

Fact of the matter is, there are lots of places where nobody would think twice about a thirteen year old being out and about with his friends at 7:30 on a school night.

 

[oh_gal]

HIs family was at the vigil last night. So, too, was his football coach and team-mates.

He lived in a neighborhood that many people with lots of options would shun, owing to the "influences." Went to a school, also, in a district, than many with lots of options, would avoid for their children. I do know a good many kids who have "come through" such situations doing the right things and come out OK. Gone to college, got married, bought houses. But the fact of the matter is, we also lose a lot of them. More than in some other places.

Fact of the matter is, there are lots of places where nobody would think twice about a thirteen year old being out and about with his friends at 7:30 on a school night.

(bbm)
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with a young person being out at 7:30 with his friends. Now...robbing people and pointing a gun at police in a threatening manner....that's different.

 

[LietKynes]

[/B]

(bbm)
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with a young person being out at 7:30 with his friends. Now...robbing people and pointing a gun at police in a threatening manner....that's different.

SABBM

Very different than a lot of 13 year olds. His actions led to his death. How was the person being robbed supposed to know it was a non-lethal BB gun ?

And there are people who have grown up in neighborhoods that most would shun -- but have broken the cycle of single parent homes, poverty, drug addiction, etc. -- and have turned out well.
Everyone has a choice and TK made his very clear that evening.
Did his family know he was robbing people, or who he was hanging out with ?

 

[K_Z]

I sincerely hope that the family of this criminal youth does not receive a single penny from the city. Getting shot by police while engaged in multiple violent felonies should not equal a payday for relatives of the dead criminal, IMO. This wasn't a "mistake" or an "accident" on the part of the officer, or the criminal suspect TK.

TK was engaged in felony criminal behavior-- armed robbery. The officer did what he had to do. I take no satisfaction in that, but we must all resist the urge to be "apologists" for TK's behavior because he was poor, or lived in an inner city, violent neighborhood. Poor people know right from wrong. Poor people, and yes, 13 year olds, know that armed robbery is wrong. TK was not shot because he was "poor" or "black" from a bad neighborhood; he was shot because he was engaged in felony criminal armed robbery and resisting arrest.

It is possible to be sympathetic for the young life lost, and still hold the suspect completely accountable for his actions, and also believe that the family is "owed" nothing in the way of a financial windfall from this terrible situation.

More gun regulation would not have prevented this, or any other armed robbery. Chicago is a glaring, horrific example of the failure of that kind of misguided thinking. IL has the strictest gun laws in the country, and still over 3000 people have been shot in the last 8 months in the south and east side of Chicago. I would wager a bet that almost none of those 3000 were shot with LEGALLY OWNED guns. Responsible gun owners are not the problem. Police are not the problem.

The dissolution of the family structure, irresponsible parenting, and the omnipresent "criminal culture" in the inner cities is the problem. It's a huge, enormous problem. It's the elephant in the room that "politically correct" apologists demand that we ignore. We have to be very honest about what the real problem is. And "we" outsiders can't "fix" these problems with tolerance, or a few new laws, or some *advertiser censored* ba yah sessions-- the fix has to come from the people who live there, and their community and religious leaders. Hard work, over time, to eradicate the criminal culture, and restore social norms, like attentive parenting, that benefit everyone in society. Until that happens, all "we" can do who are outsiders is respond to the problems and criminal behavior with increased policing, and firm consequences in the justice/ penal system.

The best thing that could come out of TK's death, IMO, is not a windfall of cash, but a wake up call to his peers, to reject criminality and the lifestyle and culture of the hood. My hope is that the example of TK's behavior and death could help persuade just ONE of those kids get out of that lifestyle, and live a decent, law abiding, productive life.

 

[LietKynes]

I sincerely hope that the family of this criminal youth does not receive a single penny from the city. Getting shot by police while engaged in multiple violent felonies should not equal a payday for relatives of the dead criminal, IMO. This wasn't a "mistake" or an "accident" on the part of the officer, or the criminal suspect TK.

TK was engaged in felony criminal behavior-- armed robbery. The officer did what he had to do. I take no satisfaction in that, but we must all resist the urge to be "apologists" for TK's behavior because he was poor, or lived in an inner city, violent neighborhood. Poor people know right from wrong. Poor people, and yes, 13 year olds, know that armed robbery is wrong. TK was not shot because he was "poor" or "black" from a bad neighborhood; he was shot because he was engaged in felony criminal armed robbery and resisting arrest.

It is possible to be sympathetic for the young life lost, and still hold the suspect completely accountable for his actions, and also believe that the family is "owed" nothing in the way of a financial windfall from this terrible situation.

More gun regulation would not have prevented this, or any other armed robbery. Chicago is a glaring, horrific example of the failure of that kind of misguided thinking. IL has the strictest gun laws in the country, and still over 3000 people have been shot in the last 8 months in the south and east side of Chicago. I would wager a bet that almost none of those 3000 were shot with LEGALLY OWNED guns. Responsible gun owners are not the problem. Police are not the problem.

The dissolution of the family structure, irresponsible parenting, and the omnipresent "criminal culture" in the inner cities is the problem. It's a huge, enormous problem. It's the elephant in the room that "politically correct" apologists demand that we ignore. We have to be very honest about what the real problem is. And "we" outsiders can't "fix" these problems with tolerance, or a few new laws, or some *advertiser censored* ba yah sessions-- the fix has to come from the people who live there, and their community and religious leaders. Hard work, over time, to eradicate the criminal culture, and restore social norms, like attentive parenting, that benefit everyone in society. Until that happens, all "we" can do who are outsiders is respond to the problems and criminal behavior with increased policing, and firm consequences in the justice/ penal system.

The best thing that could come out of TK's death, IMO, is not a windfall of cash, but a wake up call to his peers, to reject criminality and the lifestyle and culture of the hood. My hope is that the example of TK's behavior and death could help persuade just ONE of those kids get out of that lifestyle, and live a decent, law abiding, productive life.

RSBM

Agreed with your entire post.
That was very well said !

 

[Cubby]

I sincerely hope that the family of this criminal youth does not receive a single penny from the city. Getting shot by police while engaged in multiple violent felonies should not equal a payday for relatives of the dead criminal, IMO. This wasn't a "mistake" or an "accident" on the part of the officer, or the criminal suspect TK.

TK was engaged in felony criminal behavior-- armed robbery. The officer did what he had to do. I take no satisfaction in that, but we must all resist the urge to be "apologists" for TK's behavior because he was poor, or lived in an inner city, violent neighborhood. Poor people know right from wrong. Poor people, and yes, 13 year olds, know that armed robbery is wrong. TK was not shot because he was "poor" or "black" from a bad neighborhood; he was shot because he was engaged in felony criminal armed robbery and resisting arrest.

It is possible to be sympathetic for the young life lost, and still hold the suspect completely accountable for his actions, and also believe that the family is "owed" nothing in the way of a financial windfall from this terrible situation.

More gun regulation would not have prevented this, or any other armed robbery. Chicago is a glaring, horrific example of the failure of that kind of misguided thinking. IL has the strictest gun laws in the country, and still over 3000 people have been shot in the last 8 months in the south and east side of Chicago. I would wager a bet that almost none of those 3000 were shot with LEGALLY OWNED guns. Responsible gun owners are not the problem. Police are not the problem.

The dissolution of the family structure, irresponsible parenting, and the omnipresent "criminal culture" in the inner cities is the problem. It's a huge, enormous problem. It's the elephant in the room that "politically correct" apologists demand that we ignore. We have to be very honest about what the real problem is. And "we" outsiders can't "fix" these problems with tolerance, or a few new laws, or some *advertiser censored* ba yah sessions-- the fix has to come from the people who live there, and their community and religious leaders. Hard work, over time, to eradicate the criminal culture, and restore social norms, like attentive parenting, that benefit everyone in society. Until that happens, all "we" can do who are outsiders is respond to the problems and criminal behavior with increased policing, and firm consequences in the justice/ penal system.

The best thing that could come out of TK's death, IMO, is not a windfall of cash, but a wake up call to his peers, to reject criminality and the lifestyle and culture of the hood. My hope is that the example of TK's behavior and death could help persuade just ONE of those kids get out of that lifestyle, and live a decent, law abiding, productive life.

Excellent post, very well said. One small correction. There is no east side in Chicago, the lake is the east side. It's parts of the south and west sides with the most violence.

 

[rsd1200]

It's sad that we expect adult decision making behavior from a 13 year old boy.

One of my kids got into big trouble, by breaking the law, when he was 13. Did he know what he was doing? Yes. Did he know it was wrong? 100% Was he punished by the courts? Yep.