OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#47

[RAISINISBACK]

My view on this, fwiw, is that a single mother who has a child and the bio-father is either unknown or is not in the picture could use this custody document to appoint a guardian of her choice in the event she died or became incapacitated.

This custody document also makes me further believe that JW might not be SW's biological father. It also makes me believe there may have been two plans to deal with the issue of SW's custody. Perhaps plan A was to murder only HR and plan B was to murder HR and her family and they ended up going with plan B.

My understanding is that JW didn't use this document to obtain custody of SW. JMO, he didn't need to use it because he and his family left no living relatives of HR who could challenge him in court regarding the custody of SW or claim that HR would never have appointed JW as guardian and provide reasons why. Someone in the W family brain trust may have also realized this document would have made JW look guilty when HR turned up dead.

My understanding is that what JW did was slip in after the murders, and he provided a written statement that he had a mutually exclusive romantic relationship with HR and he provided the dates of that relationship and it coincided with when SW was conceived.

He didn't provide DNA proof he was SW's father, and I don't believe he had that kind of proof, because if he did, he would have used it, IMO. AW also provided a written statement and they convinced the judge that JW had a parental relationship with SW and that he "could" be her father.

I'm not an attorney, and I don't claim to have advanced knowledge of the law, and this is all JMO.

BBM
I think this is straight up the way it went. That's why Jake and Angie strolled in with those baby pics and statements of an exclusive relationship ect to present to a judge in a county where none of them lived, but a judge that they had a prior relationship with and was on good terms with who might overlook a DNA that said Jake was not the bio.

If he was the bio father he would not have had to do any of that. I am not sure he would have even had to go before a judge to get custody since if one parent dies the remaining parent should automatically have sole custody. But IANAL.

We have all wondered why Jake would go to a lawyer to change visitation that was evidently very liberal and was working just fine.

Angie said they just wanted to get on record an agreement that Jake and Hannah already had and were putting into practice.

But if Hannah signed up for Medicaid and food assistance on SW and a DNA test was done, if Jake came back as not the bio father, I am sure the W's got the shock of their lives and the scheming began, first with trying to get Hannah to sign over her rights, or trying to get her to at least sign some kind of formal joint custody. When she refused, they forged a fake guardianship document and the entire W family decided to kill anyone who could get custody after Hannah's death. I think all of this happened in the latter months of 2015 and the early months of 2016 when it seemed to all of us that things started to go downhill.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Whatever their plan for the use of the forged custody documents, it does appear to show intent to murder Hanna Rhoden. The timing of the forgeries, around the time they began planning the murders, monitoring the victims electronic communications (phones, email, possibly security cams, etc. ) is also very incriminating. Add that in with the purchase of supplies and equipment to carry out the murders and it seems pretty clear what the W's were up to.

The forged custody docs show that the custody issue was the main motive for the murders. Even the W's were smart enough to realize they wouldn't be able to kill Hanna without the whole family coming after them. I'm kind of in agreement with the theory that GW4 and JW were included in the guardianship documents in case they were killed in the process. I've always thought it was AW who was the one most obsessed with getting S away from Hanna, apparently at any cost. She's one crazy woman.

What about the person they continued to do surveillance on after the murders, up until the time they went to AK. Does anyone think it is possible that person may have been SW's bio father and the W's were making sure he didn't have plans to come for SW?

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

But the appointment of guardian document wouldn't be any use in that case. The document can't over-ride the law that custody would go to the other parent.

"Fathers’ rights almost always trump grandparents’ rights, regardless of what the custodial parent’s will says. Although there are exceptions to the rule, a surviving parent has an automatic right to custody when the other parent dies. This right prevails unless he waives it, or the nominated guardians can present a compelling reason why his child should live with them instead."

Does a Father Have Rights Even if the Will Gives Guardianship to the Grandparents?

A further note, appointment of Guardian is a form of a will. Each person creates their own appointment of guardian. If father dies first, then if mother dies, her appointment of guardian will come into force. Or vice versa, if mother dies, then the father's appointment will stand if he dies.

There are 3 different documents:

I predict the one for HR appoints the W's as legal guardians in the event of her death (after the death of JW). This was a complete forgery, HM wasn't consulted at all, all the W's knew about it.

The ones for JW (and GW4) would similarly appoint the Ws as guardians, in the event of their deaths, after the deaths of their child's mother.

I suspect these two were a technical forgery, that there wasn't, for example, the proper legal process of them being at the Notary's office, solemnly swearing an oath, witnesses in the room signing the documents. I can't see the W's going through that charade, since RJN was willing to forge it.

Instead, RJN may have entirely fabricated, ie left a paper trail, for an occasion when, supposedly, all three came to her office and legally created these documents.

It's also possible that AW requested her mother create these documents for her sons, without them being aware of it! That is, maybe she was the one thinking ahead to what if they were killed committing the crimes (or caught and given the death penalty!) But she didn't want to upset them by bringing it up....

BBM

Fathers’ rights almost always trump grandparents’ rights, regardless of what the custodial parent’s will says. Although there are exceptions to the rule, a surviving parent has an automatic right to custody when the other parent dies.

My point exactly. So if Jake is the bio father why did he have to go to court, drag in baby pics, write a statement swearing to a mutually exclusive relationship, have his mother write a statement that he had a father daughter relationship with SW and spend all that money he claimed to have spent to get custody of SW? Why would he have to go to court at all? Why wouldn't he just automatically have sole custody of SW?

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I agree and I believe HR was likely receiving Medicaid for medical coverage. As a part-time worker, HR may have not had sufficient income to be able to qualify for marketplace (Obamacare) coverage.

If DR had health insurance coverage through her employer, she could have put HR on her policy until HR was 26 years of age. She could have put a grandchild on her workplace coverage if she provided proof that DR was the child's legal guardian.

To have both HR and SW on Dana's work policy would have been quite expensive, IMO, because many employers only pay for employee coverage and the cost of dependent coverage is either all or partially paid for by the employee via payroll deduction.

JMO

BBM

And Dana was not SW's legal guardian, Hannah was.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

It would have been like a ton of bricks if she didn't know ahead of time! If that was the case, I can't even imagine how this woman felt the day of the murders. I wonder why you, anyone one would keep these documents after the fact of the murders so must mean that they were filed, right?

Could mean they thought they might need them for Jake to get custody if they didn't find a judge who would overlook everything and award custody on a "mutually exclusive" relationship and a statement about the father daughter relationship and a few baby pics.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

Whatever their plan for the use of the forged custody documents, it does appear to show intent to murder Hanna Rhoden. The timing of the forgeries, around the time they began planning the murders, monitoring the victims electronic communications (phones, email, possibly security cams, etc. ) is also very incriminating. Add that in with the purchase of supplies and equipment to carry out the murders and it seems pretty clear what the W's were up to.

The forged custody docs show that the custody issue was the main motive for the murders. Even the W's were smart enough to realize they wouldn't be able to kill Hanna without the whole family coming after them. I'm kind of in agreement with the theory that GW4 and JW were included in the guardianship documents in case they were killed in the process. I've always thought it was AW who was the one most obsessed with getting S away from Hanna, apparently at any cost. She's one crazy woman.

Betty I agree that the forged documents can be looked upon as intent. What I can't jive with that is if Dewine stated over and over how planned out and sophisticated the murders were, how could the W's be so stupid not to realise that they would be viewed as damning? Did they think that because they did all three at the same time that would showed, hey we all did it to be responsible about our children? Do you know if LE found these in RN's possession or they were actually filed? Did they need to be filed or was a notary good enough to be legal? Thanks if you know.

 

[Satchie]

However, this was done for both boys, and HMR. Nothing for G3's ex who he's so afraid of H ending up with that his response to a Visitation Change Request, was a psych eval for her {eye roll}. H could have gone to his mother or one of her family members if she was deemed unsuitable.

RSBM
There isn't one for H's mother in the discovery package, but perhaps there was one forged. Prosecutors might have decided not to bring her name into the trial.

 

[sunshineray]

BBM

Fathers’ rights almost always trump grandparents’ rights, regardless of what the custodial parent’s will says. Although there are exceptions to the rule, a surviving parent has an automatic right to custody when the other parent dies.

My point exactly. So if Jake is the bio father why did he have to go to court, drag in baby pics, write a statement swearing to a mutually exclusive relationship, have his mother write a statement that he had a father daughter relationship with SW and spend all that money he claimed to have spent to get custody of SW? Why would he have to go to court at all? Why wouldn't he just automatically have sole custody of SW?

JMO

So do you think then that JW's name wasn't even on SW's birth certificate?

 

[sunshineray]

What about the person they continued to do surveillance on after the murders, up until the time they went to AK. Does anyone think it is possible that person may have been SW's bio father and the W's were making sure he didn't have plans to come for SW?

JMO

There's a particular person they survailed after the murders?

 

[Betty P]

What about the person they continued to do surveillance on after the murders, up until the time they went to AK. Does anyone think it is possible that person may have been SW's bio father and the W's were making sure he didn't have plans to come for SW?

JMO

Possible, but I think it was James Manley or another surviving family member. I think W's were still trying to get LE to pin the murder on the family and were trying to follow what LE was doing in that part of the investigation or looking for more ways to set them up. It could also have been someone else who would know something about what was going on with LE's investigation. IDK, I'm not really sure, these are just hunches.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

My son was not on his daughter's birth certificate. When the mother signed up for benefits, she gave them his name. They told him if he signed a form admitting paternity, they would get his name put on the birth certificate. He signed. No DNA test was done. They took him to court for support and the cost of her hospital bill for birthing costs. They DID NOT put his name on the birth certificate. This was in Ohio....

A friend of mine who lives in Arkansas grandson received a letter saying that a girl named him as the father of her child. The letter gave him a date and time to show up at a place for the test. It did not give him a chance to admit or deny he was the father. Just an order to show up on a certain day and time.

The test came back 99% he was not the father. I can imagine him wiping the sweat from his brow in total relief as he read the results of that test. lol

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

There's a particular person they survailed after the murders?

According to the indictment they are charged with ongoing hacking ect even after the murders, up until the time they left for AK.

 

[Merrygirl]

If RW of BBL was guilty of anything pertinent to these murders, he would have been indicted and charged. So I stand with the Investigators and their choices based on the cold hard evidence, some of which we've already seen in Discovery documents. JMHO

I’m sorry about the confusion. The question I was trying to answer was “why CRsr & Dana was supposedly planning to move to Fla.” I did not mean to imply RW had anything to do with the murders. I’m sure AC has evidence regarding any other connection between the two of them.

 

[Betty P]

Betty I agree that the forged documents can be looked upon as intent. What I can't jive with that is if Dewine stated over and over how planned out and sophisticated the murders were, how could the W's be so stupid not to realise that they would be viewed as damning? Did they think that because they did all three at the same time that would showed, hey we all did it to be responsible about our children? Do you know if LE found these in RN's possession or they were actually filed? Did they need to be filed or was a notary good enough to be legal? Thanks if you know.

I think they were so arrogant they didn't think they would be caught, hence didn't worry about it. It's also possible not everyone knew about the documents or assumed RN (or whomever else had them) had destroyed them. W's were good at executing the murders, but they weren't so smart about other things, like shopping for murder supplies at Walmart in front of their security cameras. JMO, the reason it took so long to catch them was because LE didn't consider them suspects for nearly a year, due to their social status in the community. Once LE honed in on them, it took a while to gather enough evidence to charge all 6 of the family members.

JMO, in another community or under different circumstances, LE would have targeted and arrested them much earlier.

 

[Satchie]

My point exactly. So if Jake is the bio father why did he have to go to court, drag in baby pics, write a statement swearing to a mutually exclusive relationship, have his mother write a statement that he had a father daughter relationship with SW and spend all that money he claimed to have spent to get custody of SW? Why would he have to go to court at all? Why wouldn't he just automatically have sole custody of SW?

JMO

RSBM

I think it was because they were never married. From the same link: Does a Father Have Rights Even if the Will Gives Guardianship to the Grandparents? "If you acknowledged paternity but never sought a custody order to establish visitation or parenting time with your child, custody can’t automatically revert to you when her mother dies. If you find yourself in this situation, confer with an attorney."

I think the W's issue was getting 100% custody of the child, they weren't settling for no 'visitation rights'.

 

[rsd1200]

RSBM
There isn't one for H's mother in the discovery package, but perhaps there was one forged. Prosecutors might have decided not to bring her name into the trial.

That would be addt'l damning evidence against G4, and RN, though.

One thing I don't get, is; If I die, (while attempting to kill someone), don't give my son to my ex-wife.

If she's considered a suitable mother, it would be kinda hard for her son to be given to anyone else. When I was approached, it was by a married couple, and both had asked together. If any of the Ws died that night, this case would have been much further along. and possibly even over, by now. Maybe some or all of the victims would even be alive today.

Edit; In other words, the docs would have very likely been useless. It does not seem like "sophisticated" thinking, to me. Grandma, do us a favor, HMR can't be here today but you know her sig. She's not feeling well.

 

[rsd1200]

A friend of mine who lives in Arkansas grandson received a letter saying that a girl named him as the father of her child. The letter gave him a date and time to show up at a place for the test. It did not give him a chance to admit or deny he was the father. Just an order to show up on a certain day and time.

The test came back 99% he was not the father. I can imagine him wiping the sweat from his brow in total relief as he read the results of that test. lol

JMO

One of mine got the same letter. The child in question was almost two years old and the mom didn't want to name potential father b/c there were more than one. When the state said she'd lose her benis, she gave them names. It came back 99.9% the child was my grandchild, complete with two years of back support, and no visitation.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

I think the only reason Jake would have needed this document is if he was not the bio father. If he was not the bio and Hannah died (by any means) he would have needed this document in case SW's real dad stepped in and tried to take custody of her.

For instance, when my son was a minor I never had any document like this since if I died (hangnail or any other means) hubby who is my son's bio father would have had no reason to believe or even think that anyone would have stepped in to try to get custody of him.

I could see if a divorced person might have this document naming their parents as guardian if hubby/wife was abusive to the children.

But I see no reason Jake should have this document to get custody of a child who was his own.

JMO

Jake had to have that paperwork to get what life insurance if any and SW social security from Hanna death, without those papers any insurance money would have went into a trust until the child was 18 now with Hanna signing power of attorney over of SW at her death. Why, it don’t make any sense that’s why LE started a investigation on the Wagners, JMO Jake filed those papers with the court after Hanna’s death. Was Jake on the brith certificate if so why would he need notarized paperwork, he could make all decision After Hanna’s death, even if they weren’t married, maybe Jake though that Angela would be the only Wagners 4 that didn’t go to jail and would have got custody of SW, also the Wagners didn’t want grandmother Rhoden, Manleys, aunts, uncles or cousins to have any chance of coming in on SW custody rights, also Jake thought Wagners men might not be coming back alive from killing the Rhodens family that night. I guess will have to wait a see why RN did this wit the Wagners

 

[molly1255]

This is common, I have filled one of those out, never had it notarized, and thankfully never needed it, and I've been asked to be a designated guardian (and accepted). However, this was done for both boys, and HMR. Nothing for G3's ex who he's so afraid of H ending up with that his response to a Visitation Change Request, was a psych eval for her {eye roll}. H could have gone to his mother or one of her family members if she was deemed unsuitable.

The murders had a focus on the control of the children, but I feel there was something more, as DeWine said, there was an undercurrent of drugs. I feel it was the three men who did it, possibly only two, but I lean toward three. If AW is the name on the docs, she'd not be there b/c she may could have been killed that night too.

This, I believe, was about taking out the core R family. HHG GR, and KR were collateral damage. They either didn't care that they killed them since they were just there, or they knew there was no way around it, and still didn't care. I think they may have killed KR to try and make it look like a drug hit on the entire family,(Dewine; there was an undercurrent of drugs), or they possibly tried to make it look like it was a murder / suicide committed by KR and failed. I lean toward the former.

JMO, it appears the W's made it their full-time business to know every single detail of what was going on with the Rhodens, their properties and even what was going on inside of their homes. It wouldn't surprise me if the W's discovered that CR Sr. was growing and that might be the undercurrent of drugs that Dewine mentioned.

The Wags may have been using this to try to intimidate the R's. JW was causing HR and her family a lot of stress and worry and his shenanigans, IMO, could be construed as harassment, especially since HR was being very generous in the visitation she allowed JW with SW.

Right before the murders, JW was acting nice, but before that, he was being extremely unreasonable. It appears the R's still allowed JW on their properties, though. There are people who would have run him off with a shotgun and told him they'd see him in court.

I have a feeling the R's had the goods on JW, too, as JW wanted custody but he seemed to be avoiding going to court to try to win custody. He didn't go to court until after the R's were murdered.

JMO

 

[molly1255]

BBM

And Dana was not SW's legal guardian, Hannah was.

Agree, so I think it's safe to say that DR would not have been able to add SW as a dependent on her employer's group health policy, if her employer had a group health insurance policy in place.