OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#47

[molly1255]

Thanks Loomis.
This is a critical piece of evidence going to motive and intent.
The way I read the RN indictment, seems to me JW and GW4 are probably witnesses. But the purpose of witness is to witness a signature.
So who would have been the person to sign this document, was it HR. or was she too young to do that. Did Wagners intend to try to force CRsr and/or DR to sign this document?
I wonder where this document was found.
Did W’s keep document to have it to present to the courts after the murders? That doesn’t make sense.
Really, what could have been the purpose of this document. Who was it supposed to fool?
The Wagners outsmarted themselves with this fake document.
Edit to add:
In reading all the comments about ‘Death of both parents’ I wonder if the Wagner who came up with this scheme fully understood what the document did or did not accomplish. Creepy.

My view on this, fwiw, is that a single mother who has a child and the bio-father is either unknown or is not in the picture could use this custody document to appoint a guardian of her choice in the event she died or became incapacitated.

This custody document also makes me further believe that JW might not be SW's biological father. It also makes me believe there may have been two plans to deal with the issue of SW's custody. Perhaps plan A was to murder only HR and plan B was to murder HR and her family and they ended up going with plan B.

My understanding is that JW didn't use this document to obtain custody of SW. JMO, he didn't need to use it because he and his family left no living relatives of HR who could challenge him in court regarding the custody of SW or claim that HR would never have appointed JW as guardian and provide reasons why. Someone in the W family brain trust may have also realized this document would have made JW look guilty when HR turned up dead.

My understanding is that what JW did was slip in after the murders, and he provided a written statement that he had a mutually exclusive romantic relationship with HR and he provided the dates of that relationship and it coincided with when SW was conceived.

He didn't provide DNA proof he was SW's father, and I don't believe he had that kind of proof, because if he did, he would have used it, IMO. AW also provided a written statement and they convinced the judge that JW had a parental relationship with SW and that he "could" be her father.

I'm not an attorney, and I don't claim to have advanced knowledge of the law, and this is all JMO.

 

[Betty P]

Whatever their plan for the use of the forged custody documents, it does appear to show intent to murder Hanna Rhoden. The timing of the forgeries, around the time they began planning the murders, monitoring the victims electronic communications (phones, email, possibly security cams, etc. ) is also very incriminating. Add that in with the purchase of supplies and equipment to carry out the murders and it seems pretty clear what the W's were up to.

The forged custody docs show that the custody issue was the main motive for the murders. Even the W's were smart enough to realize they wouldn't be able to kill Hanna without the whole family coming after them. I'm kind of in agreement with the theory that GW4 and JW were included in the guardianship documents in case they were killed in the process. I've always thought it was AW who was the one most obsessed with getting S away from Hanna, apparently at any cost. She's one crazy woman.

 

[Satchie]

I think they were forged in case SW's real father stepped in and tried to get custody of her when Hannah died.

JMO

But the appointment of guardian document wouldn't be any use in that case. The document can't over-ride the law that custody would go to the other parent.

"Fathers’ rights almost always trump grandparents’ rights, regardless of what the custodial parent’s will says. Although there are exceptions to the rule, a surviving parent has an automatic right to custody when the other parent dies. This right prevails unless he waives it, or the nominated guardians can present a compelling reason why his child should live with them instead."

Does a Father Have Rights Even if the Will Gives Guardianship to the Grandparents?

A further note, appointment of Guardian is a form of a will. Each person creates their own appointment of guardian. If father dies first, then if mother dies, her appointment of guardian will come into force. Or vice versa, if mother dies, then the father's appointment will stand if he dies.

There are 3 different documents:

I predict the one for HR appoints the W's as legal guardians in the event of her death (after the death of JW). This was a complete forgery, HM wasn't consulted at all, all the W's knew about it.

The ones for JW (and GW4) would similarly appoint the Ws as guardians, in the event of their deaths, after the deaths of their child's mother.

I suspect these two were a technical forgery, that there wasn't, for example, the proper legal process of them being at the Notary's office, solemnly swearing an oath, witnesses in the room signing the documents. I can't see the W's going through that charade, since RJN was willing to forge it.

Instead, RJN may have entirely fabricated, ie left a paper trail, for an occasion when, supposedly, all three came to her office and legally created these documents.

It's also possible that AW requested her mother create these documents for her sons, without them being aware of it! That is, maybe she was the one thinking ahead to what if they were killed committing the crimes (or caught and given the death penalty!) But she didn't want to upset them by bringing it up....

 

[molly1255]

I think Hannah did sign up for public support. It is the law that everyone must have health insurance. Hannah was a single mother who still in high school (her graduation was in May 2016) and she had one small child with another on the way. She had to have medical insurance for SW and the unborn child. While Dana may have had health insurance at her work for Hannah and Junior I don't think any work policy would have allowed her to put her grandchild on it. Hannah worked part time at the nursing home with her mom so I don't think as a part timer that her work had to offer her a health policy. So therefore she would have went through the market place or signed up for Medicaid at her local public assistance office. If she signed up at the public assistance office then she would have certainly been eligible for food assistance since she could not have been making much money at a part time low paying job. I have been told that when you sign up for assistance they want the name of the father. I don't know how it is in Ohio but I have been told that when a woman signs up for assistance a DNA test is ordered for whoever she names as the father automatically.

Whew... I had to call a lot of people this morning to find that out including a very (now) confused woman at the local public welfare office who mistakenly thought I was the one who was pregnant with a small child and wanted hubby's name to slam him with a DNA test and some child support. The phone call almost came to an end when I told her my age. lol

JMO

I agree and I believe HR was likely receiving Medicaid for medical coverage. As a part-time worker, HR may have not had sufficient income to be able to qualify for marketplace (Obamacare) coverage.

If DR had health insurance coverage through her employer, she could have put HR on her policy until HR was 26 years of age. She could have put a grandchild on her workplace coverage if she provided proof that DR was the child's legal guardian.

To have both HR and SW on Dana's work policy would have been quite expensive, IMO, because many employers only pay for employee coverage and the cost of dependent coverage is either all or partially paid for by the employee via payroll deduction.

JMO

 

[molly1255]

I think the only reason Jake would have needed this document is if he was not the bio father. If he was not the bio and Hannah died (by any means) he would have needed this document in case SW's real dad stepped in and tried to take custody of her.

For instance, when my son was a minor I never had any document like this since if I died (hangnail or any other means) hubby who is my son's bio father would have had no reason to believe or even think that anyone would have stepped in to try to get custody of him.

I could see if a divorced person might have this document naming their parents as guardian if hubby/wife was abusive to the children.

But I see no reason Jake should have this document to get custody of a child who was his own.

JMO

"I think the only reason Jake would have needed this document is if he was not the bio father. If he was not the bio and Hannah died (by any means) he would have needed this document in case SW's real dad stepped in and tried to take custody of her.

BBM - agree 100%!

 

[molly1255]

Hi Ohio Blues- here is a reference to AW & BW's listed income in their bankruptcy filing:

"Their only monthly income listed was $530 in Social Security payments and $389 in food stamps."

Pike County: Father accused in Rhoden massacre faced prior felonies

That was income they had to declare, IMO. About $10,000 in debt was discharged. I'm surprised Fred didn't bail them out. She didn't seem to think twice about shelling out close to $1,000 for bpv's for BW.

 

[Ann99]

Can someone please remind me - was JW listed on birth certificate as Father of S?

Since these documents were created early in April, before the birth of HR’s new baby, could there have been some thought by the Wagners that one of these documents could cover the parental issue for that baby, as JW seemed certain the baby was his.

 

[Loomis124]

RW from BBL has a real estate business in Fla and CRsr worked for RW. Perhaps RW had work for him to do down there.

If RW of BBL was guilty of anything pertinent to these murders, he would have been indicted and charged. So I stand with the Investigators and their choices based on the cold hard evidence, some of which we've already seen in Discovery documents. JMH

Is it possible that the forged papers were not just about Hannah being killed and Jake getting custody? Since both Wagner sons were also named, maybe these papers were also in case they were killed in the commission of the Rhoden murders. I'm betting that AW is the first in line for getting both kids. Obsession of the custody of the kids and all.

BINGO! JMO

 

[sunshineray]

I agree. My guess is she probably knew JW was trying to get custody of SW and that HR refused.

If she didn't know what this was adding up to when she notarized it, it should have hit her like a ton of bricks when she learned about the murders.

She's also accused of lying to the grand jury. Her defense ought to be interesting.

It doesn't appear JW ever used these papers to get custody of SW but went the route of claiming her was her father. Of course, he didn't leave anyone alive who could oppose him in court. These papers make me wonder if the original plan was to murder only HR ?

It would have been like a ton of bricks if she didn't know ahead of time! If that was the case, I can't even imagine how this woman felt the day of the murders. I wonder why you, anyone one would keep these documents after the fact of the murders so must mean that they were filed, right?

 

[sunshineray]

Thanks. I waited several times, and checked my download monitor in case it was a .pdf. Just never did get anything.

I suppose the 99% of us would have to know what we're looking for.

Yes that's what is was a pdf. a box popped up for me.

 

[Loomis124]

IMO, JW was definitely the father of SW. Hanna would not share custody if he wasn't her father.

I posted the name of "one" of the forged documents, the only one we have seen in Discovery. There could be more.

I believe the reason others are charged with forgery is because they signed as witnesses or elsewhere. The reason this particular form was done was in case JW and/or GW4 were killed, too.

And of course, most importantly, to get SW.

All JMO

 

[Betty P]

But the appointment of guardian document wouldn't be any use in that case. The document can't over-ride the law that custody would go to the other parent.

"Fathers’ rights almost always trump grandparents’ rights, regardless of what the custodial parent’s will says. Although there are exceptions to the rule, a surviving parent has an automatic right to custody when the other parent dies. This right prevails unless he waives it, or the nominated guardians can present a compelling reason why his child should live with them instead."

Does a Father Have Rights Even if the Will Gives Guardianship to the Grandparents?

A further note, appointment of Guardian is a form of a will. Each person creates their own appointment of guardian. If father dies first, then if mother dies, her appointment of guardian will come into force. Or vice versa, if mother dies, then the father's appointment will stand if he dies.

There are 3 different documents:

I predict the one for HR appoints the W's as legal guardians in the event of her death (after the death of JW). This was a complete forgery, HM wasn't consulted at all, all the W's knew about it.

The ones for JW (and GW4) would similarly appoint the Ws as guardians, in the event of their deaths, after the deaths of their child's mother.

I suspect these two were a technical forgery, that there wasn't, for example, the proper legal process of them being at the Notary's office, solemnly swearing an oath, witnesses in the room signing the documents. I can't see the W's going through that charade, since RJN was willing to forge it.

Instead, RJN may have entirely fabricated, ie left a paper trail, for an occasion when, supposedly, all three came to her office and legally created these documents.

It's also possible that AW requested her mother create these documents for her sons, without them being aware of it! That is, maybe she was the one thinking ahead to what if they were killed committing the crimes (or caught and given the death penalty!) But she didn't want to upset them by bringing it up....

BBM
Great thinking, especially the part I bolded. This can add a whole new layer of family drama to the situation. Who sends their own sons into such a life threatening situation, while setting themselves up as an innocent bystander to benefit from their potential deaths? If true, would GW4 and JW feel betrayed by AW when they learn of this?

Just wanted to take a minute to say our new members here are coming up with some very solid sleuthing and analysis. Great work and compliments to everyone here, old and new members alike!

 

[Betty P]

It would have been like a ton of bricks if she didn't know ahead of time! If that was the case, I can't even imagine how this woman felt the day of the murders. I wonder why you, anyone one would keep these documents after the fact of the murders so must mean that they were filed, right?

JMO, I'm pretty sure these documents were found as part of a search, so I'm guessing they weren't filed. If so, they would have caught the attention of LE very quickly. Also, if filed, JW wouldn't have had to wait so long to gain custody of S. Seems the process of filing for custody (which he did on the day of Gary Rhoden's funeral) would have been much different. Once the Rhoden family was murdered, they no longer had a use for them, but saved them anyway.

 

[Betty P]

If RW of BBL was guilty of anything pertinent to these murders, he would have been indicted and charged. So I stand with the Investigators and their choices based on the cold hard evidence, some of which we've already seen in Discovery documents. JMH


BINGO! JMO

Recall, also the discovery doc showing evidence of a large amount of data from Billy Wagner's phone linked to BBL. I could be wrong, but that hints that RW actually helped LE in the investigation. JMO. BBL seemed to be a meeting place, employer, etc. for many of the victims, surviving family members and the killers. Unintentionally, RW was stuck in the midst of this case from early on. I'm assuming he cooperated, which would explain his silence and low profile during the investigation.

All just my theory, anyway.

 

[Kyshoegal]

I've always suspected she knew what was up or at least what was possible, considering the docs she forged.

Thanks for the tip Loomis.

What doesn't make sense to me is that they didn't need the documents, in the case of Hanna's death Jake would automatically get custody as her biological parent. UNLESS in fact, he was not her father as someone here discussed earlier. (I do believe he is the father) The only purpose it would serve is if her parents or someone wanted to challenge his custody then he could say, "look Hanna even signed this proving she wanted me to raise our child." SO why go to this much trouble

 

[molly1255]

It would have been like a ton of bricks if she didn't know ahead of time! If that was the case, I can't even imagine how this woman felt the day of the murders. I wonder why you, anyone one would keep these documents after the fact of the murders so must mean that they were filed, right?

Either she was duped by her daughter and grandson, or she knew what she was doing, but at some point in time, she had to know what this was all about, IMO.

I don't believe the custody document for SW was ever filed or used by JW to get custody of SW. Someone apparently kept it and I think this is a huge piece of evidence that shows the motive. JMO

 

[rsd1200]

Thanks Loomis.
This is a critical piece of evidence going to motive and intent.
The way I read the RN indictment, seems to me JW and GW4 are probably witnesses. But the purpose of witness is to witness a signature.
So who would have been the person to sign this document, was it HR. or was she too young to do that. Did Wagners intend to try to force CRsr and/or DR to sign this document?
I wonder where this document was found.
Did W’s keep document to have it to present to the courts after the murders? That doesn’t make sense.
Really, what could have been the purpose of this document. Who was it supposed to fool?
The Wagners outsmarted themselves with this fake document.
Edit to add:
In reading all the comments about ‘Death of both parents’ I wonder if the Wagner who came up with this scheme fully understood what the document did or did not accomplish. Creepy.

This is common, I have filled one of those out, never had it notarized, and thankfully never needed it, and I've been asked to be a designated guardian (and accepted). However, this was done for both boys, and HMR. Nothing for G3's ex who he's so afraid of H ending up with that his response to a Visitation Change Request, was a psych eval for her {eye roll}. H could have gone to his mother or one of her family members if she was deemed unsuitable.

The murders had a focus on the control of the children, but I feel there was something more, as DeWine said, there was an undercurrent of drugs. I feel it was the three men who did it, possibly only two, but I lean toward three. If AW is the name on the docs, she'd not be there b/c she may could have been killed that night too.

This, I believe, was about taking out the core R family. HHG GR, and KR were collateral damage. They either didn't care that they killed them since they were just there, or they knew there was no way around it, and still didn't care. I think they may have killed KR to try and make it look like a drug hit on the entire family,(Dewine; there was an undercurrent of drugs), or they possibly tried to make it look like it was a murder / suicide committed by KR and failed. I lean toward the former.

 

[Betty P]

What doesn't make sense to me is that they didn't need the documents, in the case of Hanna's death Jake would automatically get custody as her biological parent. UNLESS in fact, he was not her father as someone here discussed earlier. (I do believe he is the father) The only purpose it would serve is if her parents or someone wanted to challenge his custody then he could say, "look Hanna even signed this proving she wanted me to raise our child." SO why go to this much trouble

JMO, they may have thought these documents would allow them to have custody of S much quicker after the murders. I also think they had a document, maybe the guardianship doc or a custody doc, that they used to intimidate HMR in the weeks before the murders. IIRC, Leonard Manley mentioned the W's had been pressuring her to give up custody of S, causing a lot of problems and upset.

 

[OhioBlues]

What doesn't make sense to me is that they didn't need the documents, in the case of Hanna's death Jake would automatically get custody as her biological parent. UNLESS in fact, he was not her father as someone here discussed earlier. (I do believe he is the father) The only purpose it would serve is if her parents or someone wanted to challenge his custody then he could say, "look Hanna even signed this proving she wanted me to raise our child." SO why go to this much trouble

I think it was insurance in case the child custody hearing didn't go JW's way. My guess is that the other documents were a cover to say that we did the same documents for the others so it wasn't just JW. They could have claimed that it was just bad timing that unfairly pointed the finger at JW over HR's murder.

 

[Dudly]

I think Hannah did sign up for public support. It is the law that everyone must have health insurance. Hannah was a single mother who still in high school (her graduation was in May 2016) and she had one small child with another on the way. She had to have medical insurance for SW and the unborn child. While Dana may have had health insurance at her work for Hannah and Junior I don't think any work policy would have allowed her to put her grandchild on it. Hannah worked part time at the nursing home with her mom so I don't think as a part timer that her work had to offer her a health policy. So therefore she would have went through the market place or signed up for Medicaid at her local public assistance office. If she signed up at the public assistance office then she would have certainly been eligible for food assistance since she could not have been making much money at a part time low paying job. I have been told that when you sign up for assistance they want the name of the father. I don't know how it is in Ohio but I have been told that when a woman signs up for assistance a DNA test is ordered for whoever she names as the father automatically.

Whew... I had to call a lot of people this morning to find that out including a very (now) confused woman at the local public welfare office who mistakenly thought I was the one who was pregnant with a small child and wanted hubby's name to slam him with a DNA test and some child support. The phone call almost came to an end when I told her my age. lol

JMO

My son was not on his daughter's birth certificate. When the mother signed up for benefits, she gave them his name. They told him if he signed a form admitting paternity, they would get his name put on the birth certificate. He signed. No DNA test was done. They took him to court for support and the cost of her hospital bill for birthing costs. They DID NOT put his name on the birth certificate. This was in Ohio....