Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #6 *Arrests*

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MOD NOTE - URGENT, PLEASE READ:

Some of the documents are now accessible again. Some are not - it appears from our frantic mod/admin review that those no longer available contain sensitive information about the children, names of non--case players, etc.

Websleuths tries very hard to be cooperative with the needs of law enforcement and the courts. We don't know for sure why they were taken down, but since those documents are no longer available, discussing what is in them is not allowed.

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Edit: Please note that the children in this case are identifiable because of this case and those documents that are not available. They may read here one day. If it's not in the available docs, please don't discuss it.
 
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MOD NOTE:

Quick note - I haven't seen an official missing page posted yet. As members are indicating there are several, PLEASE make sure anything you bring here is from the OFFICIAL page. Look at "People" to make sure it's run by family and not by random true crime creators, etc.

Remember that only posts by the administrator of the official page can be brought here. More info at the Social Media link below this post.

Thanks!!!!

(And thank you also for keeping the info within what you can actually link!)
 
ADMIN NOTE:

This post lands at random.

The location of any of the children in this case is absolutely OFF LIMITS. That includes Veronica's children, Jilian's children, or any children of the accused. Do not ask where they may be, suggest where they may be, or hint that you know where they may be. Do not discuss their whereabouts in any way.

ZERO TOLERANCE
 
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ClearAhead in the previous thread wrote: "There would be no point to TA’s lie if the plan was to leave VBs car only three miles from the drop off point as there was no reason for her car to be there."

But there was still no point to TA's lie that VB had cancelled the visit, since VB and JK's family knew she was still coming! Surely TA would've known that. Maybe she just didn't think about that, but it seems so obvious, hard to believe she wouldn't have considered that. So I think there's something we're still missing on that point. Unless she was just being dumb, and I could believe that too.
 
sunspun said:
ClearAhead in the previous thread wrote: "There would be no point to TA’s lie if the plan was to leave VBs car only three miles from the drop off point as there was no reason for her car to be there."

But there was still no point to TA's lie that VB had cancelled the visit, since VB and JK's family knew she was still coming! Surely TA would've known that. Maybe she just didn't think about that, but it seems so obvious, hard to believe she wouldn't have considered that. So I think there's something we're still missing on that point. Unless she was just being dumb, and I could believe that too.
Click to expand...
Could be that that lie was for the sole benefit of Brune with no other thought given to the fact that Veronica's and Jilians would be looking for them. It's possible that Tifany didn't know a birthday party was planned and that people would be waiting all to return for that. She may have thought she had hours before anyone would notice they were gone. The visits were to end at 5PM. Dunno if that included getting back to the exchange point which would be closer to 6PM. Either way, she may have been counting on having a minimum of seven hours before anyone missed them. In that time, the car could have been gotten rid of but because V's family were waiting at the party, then went searching and found the car by noon.
 
In the last thread, @carbuff said:

Yeah, it seems that that lie was meant to create the impression VB was never anywhere near Four Corners, which only works if there's no trace of her or her car.

Which could also be the reason for trailering the car rather than driving it. If it was driven, it might have been seen, but it would ideally, if everything had gone according to plan, only been visible for a minute or two while it was being loaded into the trailer.

I share the opinion that JK probably pulled her weapon immediately and the killers weren't prepared for that.

BBM^^^

That's exactly my thinking. @SteveP and I have competing theories on this, with Steve thinking the plan was to bury the car and me thinking it was to take it far away. IMO, taking the car out to the burial location, which is not far from Beasely's house (someone said 400'), would have risked the car being seen out there. I think it could have been loaded into the trailer and, therefore, have been not visible. The trailer could have been parked, car inside, and then easily driven out of state. Car theft anywhere near the US border with Mexico is huge business and Kias are one of the top cars for thieves. Once handed off, that car could have been disassembled or in Mexico in a couple of days.
 
Artis said:
In the last thread, @carbuff said:

Yeah, it seems that that lie was meant to create the impression VB was never anywhere near Four Corners, which only works if there's no trace of her or her car.

Which could also be the reason for trailering the car rather than driving it. If it was driven, it might have been seen, but it would ideally, if everything had gone according to plan, only been visible for a minute or two while it was being loaded into the trailer.

I share the opinion that JK probably pulled her weapon immediately and the killers weren't prepared for that.

BBM^^^

That's exactly my thinking. @SteveP and I have competing theories on this, with Steve thinking the plan was to bury the car and me thinking it was to take it far away. IMO, taking the car out to the burial location, which is not far from Beasely's house (someone said 400'), would have risked the car being seen out there. I think it could have been loaded into the trailer and, therefore, have been not visible. The trailer could have been parked, car inside, and then easily driven out of state. Car theft anywhere near the US border with Mexico is huge business and Kias are one of the top cars for thieves. Once handed off, that car could have been disassembled or in Mexico in a couple of days.
Click to expand...

Under Oklahoma statute § 21-741, kidnapping is the unlawful abduction, confinement or restraint of a person against his or her will.

How were they moved?
 
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Artis said:
...I share the opinion that JK probably pulled her weapon immediately and the killers weren't prepared for that...
Click to expand...
Maybe JK did pull her gun, but when push came to shove, couldn't bring herself to shoot another human being and they quickly overtook her and grabbed the gun from her hands.
I've also wondered if she even had the gun with her at all. It's possible she had a magazine in her purse but left her gun at home - in a hurry, or whatever - just forgot the gun?
 
Gae said:
Maybe JK did pull her gun, but when push came to shove, couldn't bring herself to shoot another human being and they quickly overtook her and grabbed the gun from her hands.
I've also wondered if she even had the gun with her at all. It's possible she had a magazine in her purse but left her gun at home - in a hurry, or whatever - just forgot the gun?
Click to expand...
I agree it is possible the casing or magazine had been in her purse several days or weeks. I am a concealed carry lady and it would not be unusual for a forgotten casing to be in my purse or car. I do not carry when I will be around children, work, or other circumstances when it would a question of safety for others.
 
sunspun said:
ClearAhead in the previous thread wrote: "There would be no point to TA’s lie if the plan was to leave VBs car only three miles from the drop off point as there was no reason for her car to be there."

But there was still no point to TA's lie that VB had cancelled the visit, since VB and JK's family knew she was still coming! Surely TA would've known that. Maybe she just didn't think about that, but it seems so obvious, hard to believe she wouldn't have considered that. So I think there's something we're still missing on that point. Unless she was just being dumb, and I could believe that too.
Click to expand...

I don’t think TA would have any way of knowing what VB told her family. It seems once the diabolical plot got rolling, very obvious problematic aspects got entirely overlooked if they thought they’d not get caught. Maybe the murder of VB was the most important end goal for TA, not custody of her grandchildren, since she has reportedly has confessed? It’s impossible to logically rationalize the mind of a crazed lunatic IMO.

Regardless when VB (and JK) first were reported missing TA intentionally lied to officers, claiming VB cancelled picking up the children (and why TA wasn’t waiting @10am with the children at Four Corners). So to me that indicates it can’t have been “the plan” for the vehicle with evidence of violence to be found only three miles away - or what was the point of the lie? I’d think it was finding no trace of the women nor their vehicle anywhere.

“Adams told officers she had called Butler to check if she was coming for the usual Saturday visit. She said Butler told her that something had come up and she could not make it.

Phone records confirmed the call had been made at 9 a.m. but also showed that at that time Butler was already in Hugoton to pick up Kelley, a pastor’s wife, who had agreed to supervise Butler with her children.”
 
Gae said:
Maybe JK did pull her gun, but when push came to shove, couldn't bring herself to shoot another human being and they quickly overtook her and grabbed the gun from her hands.
I've also wondered if she even had the gun with her at all. It's possible she had a magazine in her purse but left her gun at home - in a hurry, or whatever - just forgot the gun?
Click to expand...
I've wondered if perhaps JK did have a problem pulling the trigger, or perhaps shot in the air, hoping to drive them off, or if, perhaps the gang used all the vehicles to box them in tightly, then all 5 swarmed the Kia.
 
The lie TA told only makes sense when you realize you're dealing with a moron.

(That's true for the entire idiotic plot. Data from the victims' phones would have told the story even without the car being left where it was found.)
 
JosieMae said:
The lie TA told only makes sense when you realize you're dealing with a moron.

(That's true for the entire idiotic plot. Data from the victims' phones would have told the story even without the car being left where it was found.)
Click to expand...
Agreed. I don't think any of them had the brains to execute a well thought out plan whatsoever. Even if the car had been dealt with, TA would still be suspect No. 1. LE still would have found her internet searches and stun gun purchases, and burner phone purchases. Cora's daughter probably still would have gave up info. These people are an added list of people to the world's dumbest criminals.
 
Aside from just my gut feeling that the Kia was never planned to be hauled away in the stock trailer, I still believe it would have been extremely difficult, and not a very quick task, to load it onto the trailer, IF it would even fit. While there are some that are 8 feet wide, the standard stock trailer is 7'wide, with an actual interior width of about 6'8". The width of a Kia Sportage, which is what I have read VB owned, but also the width of most misdsized KIas, is about the same, depending on year, is about 6'1, and that does not take into account the external mirrors on either side, which could be folded in. Assuming the trailer had a ramp capable of driving the Kia into the trailer on, it would have been a helluva tight squeeze, at absolute best, to get the car inside. It certainly would not be a matter of jumping in the car, driving up and in, and being gone in a couple minutes time. And the driver was not getting out, unless the car had a sunroof.

I do not believe the stock trailer was ever planned to haul the car, nor do I believe that it realistically could have. I believe it's role was merely to block the road, and perhaps provide the means of getting the victims to the burial site. JMO
 
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