Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #66~ the appeal~

[Deleted member 102539]

JudgeJudi #178 Thank you for your post!

Worthy of remark for me:

“Why would he just want to murder someone in the toilet, knowing she’s in the bedroom?”

Why would he have fired the shots?

 

[Val1]

Imagine the likelihood of that happening.

Lol, which... an honestly matched version with OP or bought off to have a matched version with OP?

 

[Interested Bystander]

You wouldn't have to call anyone a liar to believe the shots were at around 3:12. You would just have to believe that it is possible that Mrs Stipp had either misread or misremembered the time on her alarm clock. Or that more time than she remembered had elapsed between her coughing fit (sitting up to cough, looking at the time on the clock, contemplating getting up for a drink) and hearing the first bangs. It certainly isn't impossible that the shots were fired at 3:12. Roux was clear from the time he was cross examining Dr Stipp that the defense put the gap between the sounds at around five minutes rather then nearly twenty.

If the initial shots were at 2:58, why would the Stipps have waited so long to call security? Not phoning until 18 minutes later just doesn't seem likely, IMO. And they certainly didn't give the impression in their testimonies that they felt they were on their balconies for that long. What would have prompted them to finally phone at 3:16? It wasn't the second set of bangs, as they happened while Dr Stipp was on the phone.
I don't think any witnesses described the screaming as going on for nearly twenty minutes.

Good morning. We are never likely to agree but maybe you could tell me how Roux arrived at 03.12? That would make Mrs Stipps observations 14 minutes out of kilter. Is this what you are suggesting. I have to say how very unlikely that is.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

JudgeJudi #177 Thank you for your post!

Worthy of remark for me:

Testimony that a woman was screaming was incorrect and the judge was right to find it unreliable. :banghead:

 

[Interested Bystander]

Leach said Masipa found OP to be a “shocking” and “unreliable” witness, but then went on to accept his claim that he honestly believed his life was in danger, without evidence to support it. Leach said, “He was armed with a firearm and went to confront the noise". Roux asks, “Do we think he is lying?”

Respectfully snipped

JJ that is brilliant. Every time I read such a good article, I feel a little better that there might be a positive judgement in Nel's favour.

 

[Val1]

Good morning. We are never likely to agree but maybe you could tell me how Roux arrived at 03.12? That would make Mrs Stipps observations 14 minutes out of kilter. Is this what you are suggesting. I have to say how very unlikely that is.

I can tell you, it's from OP.... in his testimony he said he figured it was about five minutes before he broke down the door that he'd fired the shots. However, iirc, there was no other "evidence" supporting that.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I have been on the OP boards since June 2013 and was a bystander for sometime before that but I have never read that anyone thought it was premeditated for 'quite some time', though it is difficult to equate 'some time' with a particular period of time, nor have I heard that the black plastic bags were for some ulterior motive. A lot of people thought it was rather strange to be using plastic bags but I suspect it was to stop the blood puddling on OP's floor. I think I must have nodded off on numerous occasions, if what you are saying is correct.

The idea with plastic bags, car motor running in front of home and trying to make Reeva disappear - I can remember on that.

 

[aftermath]

Good morning. We are never likely to agree but maybe you could tell me how Roux arrived at 03.12? That would make Mrs Stipps observations 14 minutes out of kilter. Is this what you are suggesting. I have to say how very unlikely that is.

I expect he came to 3:12 based on his client's account of events plus the fact that it is just as unlikely that the Stipps would stand listening on their balcony to gunshots and screams for a quarter of an hour before calling security. As I said in my other post, she could have misread the clock, or perhaps (and I think this might be what Roux suggested) misremembered the time gap between getting up to cough /noticing the clock and actually hearing the noise of the gunshots.
Given that she had just woken up and what she then experienced was incredibly traumatic and confusing, it would be easy to make a mistake in remembering the exact timing - especially when nobody described the screams as lasting for fifteen minutes

 

[Interested Bystander]

I expect he came to 3:12 based on his client's account of events plus the fact that it is just as unlikely that the Stipps would stand listening on their balcony to gunshots and screams for a quarter of an hour before calling security. As I said in my other post, she could have misread the clock, or perhaps (and I think this might be what Roux suggested) misremembered the time gap between getting up to cough /noticing the clock and actually hearing the noise of the gunshots.
Given that she had just woken up and what she then experienced was incredibly traumatic and confusing, it would be easy to make a mistake in remembering the exact timing - especially when nobody described the screams as lasting for fifteen minutes

I have just listened to a some of Mr Stipp's cross examination. He actually said there were 3 or 4 screams. Also during this cross Nel jumps up on several occasions to counter what Roux is trying to get Stipp to accept. It might be worth listening from 31 minutes onwards to hear how vehemently Nel objects to Roux saying that the sounds were common cause and pointing out it was not the state's case that the first sounds were shots but that the state's case was that RS was shot at 03.17. He agrees there were two sets of sounds.

I have not finished listening but I need to get on with family business. I will listen to the rest this evening but so far there has been no cross about the timing of the gap between the two sets of sounds. This, of course, I accept may come later in this session.

As has been posted, it was OP who said that there was 5 minutes between sounds. Quite frankly he is hardly likely to say otherwise given the predicament he finds himself in.

 

[Tortoise]

I expect he came to 3:12 based on his client's account of events plus the fact that it is just as unlikely that the Stipps would stand listening on their balcony to gunshots and screams for a quarter of an hour before calling security. As I said in my other post, she could have misread the clock, or perhaps (and I think this might be what Roux suggested) misremembered the time gap between getting up to cough /noticing the clock and actually hearing the noise of the gunshots.
Given that she had just woken up and what she then experienced was incredibly traumatic and confusing, it would be easy to make a mistake in remembering the exact timing - especially when nobody described the screams as lasting for fifteen minutes

Did either of the Stipps describe the screams as being constant from when they woke up to when they made phone calls? They heard screams immediately after the first bangs, they heard other screams sounding like they were coming closer, and they heard intense screaming just prior to the second bangs, but iirc there was no specific mention of them being constant. It was the last screams that woke Berger/Johnson.

In my view the screams were unlikely to have been constant because when they were at their balcony they had difficulty locating them. It is more suggestive of breaks in between and them trying to establish and locate what was happening.

That does not sound like 5 minutes from when they first looked out, moved to their other balcony, watched and puzzled where it was coming from (no time can be put on any pauses there), discussing which number to call from various options they had, trying different numbers and Dr Stipp finding clothes and getting dressed. 15 minutes could have easily passed from first waking to talking to security, and 5 minutes is out of the question for me, it accounts for no delay, discussion or scouring the surrounding street for clues at all.

Roux just could not have this delay in OP's version and the DT went out of their way to discredit both the Stipp's testimonies. Masipa had no reason to doubt Mrs Stipp's clock references, none whatsoever, but that is just another of the terrible injustices to add to the others in her judgement. She could not see what was so obvious, that OP was scribbling away on his notebook while they were giving evidence, and had to insert intensifying blood-curdling screams in male and female voices after shooting Reeva, even while he was getting his cricket bat and putting his legs on, but deathly silence after breaking down the door.

I see a lot of faults in Nel's handling of the prosecution case, in hindsight. He should have recalled Van der Nest after OP gave his version. VdN only testified on the version given by OP at his bail. VdN's evidence about arterial blood staining on the walls outside the bedroom would have blown OP's version right out of the water, he didn't carry Reeva downstairs for about 15 minutes on his version, and that would have been more accurately about 25 minutes had Mrs Stipp's times been accepted in conjunction with OP's claim that the shots were first, whereas the State's version of later shots means it had to be far less than either of these times, and the blood staining on the walls does not lie.

 

[saraomar]

I expect he came to 3:12 based on his client's account of events plus the fact that it is just as unlikely that the Stipps would stand listening on their balcony to gunshots and screams for a quarter of an hour before calling security. As I said in my other post, she could have misread the clock, or perhaps (and I think this might be what Roux suggested) misremembered the time gap between getting up to cough /noticing the clock and actually hearing the noise of the gunshots.
Given that she had just woken up and what she then experienced was incredibly traumatic and confusing, it would be easy to make a mistake in remembering the exact timing - especially when nobody described the screams as lasting for fifteen minutes

so it's ok for her to misremember or get the timings wrong because she was experiencing something traumatic....from afar...just listening...ya???

But it's impossible for OP to not make a mistake with timings, having caused the trauma and being there first hand to experience it? C'mon you can't have it both ways!

Also. Pleas don't forget, not everyone's clocks were synchronized! Even in the same house my clocks are minutes apart, so 4 people with clocks, phones, cannot possibly have the exact same time. Masipa should have accounted for this which she never did!

 

[aftermath]

so it's ok for her to misremember or get the timings wrong because she was experiencing something traumatic....from afar...just listening...ya???

But it's impossible for OP to not make a mistake with timings, having caused the trauma and being there first hand to experience it? C'mon you can't have it both ways!

Also. Pleas don't forget, not everyone's clocks were synchronized! Even in the same house my clocks are minutes apart, so 4 people with clocks, phones, cannot possibly have the exact same time. Masipa should have accounted for this which she never did!

Of course it's not impossible. Who says it was?

Re the synchronising of clocks- i'm not sure what you mean, but re phone times, I am pretty sure the data came from security records and phone network records (rather than from each individual handset/device), which would therefore offer a more guaranteed timeline of phone calls - unless you are saying different networks would have different times and not be synchronised electronically to the agreed time zone time for SA?

 

[Tortoise]

Of course it's not impossible. Who says it was?

Re the synchronising of clocks- i'm not sure what you mean, but re phone times, I am pretty sure the data came from security records and phone network records (rather than from each individual handset/device), which would therefore offer a more guaranteed timeline of phone calls - unless you are saying different networks would have different times and not be synchronised electronically to the agreed time zone time for SA?

I don't believe Johnson's phone call was backed up by security records.

 

[aftermath]

I don't believe Johnson's phone call was backed up by security records.

But all the others were, so in terms of Dr Stipp's call, if we accept the alarm clock 'real time' of about 2:58, and the phone data record of 3:16/17, then they waited an awfully long time between hearing shots and a few screams (2-3 in his initial statement, but changed to 3-4 later), and making a call to security, before hearing the final set of bangs whilst on the phone.

 

[Tortoise]

But all the others were, so in terms of Dr Stipp's call, if we accept the alarm clock 'real time' of about 2:58, and the phone data record of 3:16/17, then they waited an awfully long time between hearing shots and a few screams (2-3 in his initial statement, but changed to 3-4 later), and making a call to security, before hearing the final set of bangs whilst on the phone.

I don't agree they 'waited' before calling, they investigated the source of the noises first, and there must have been some pauses because they didn't know where they had come from. They saw OP's bathroom light on but didn't say they knew that's where the first bangs and screams came from. I am more inclined to think the clock wasn't that fast, because it seemed to be showing the right time when Dr Stipp made his call. Therefore it was closer to 12-13 minutes between them waking and calling security once they had identified the source.

 

[Val1]

One thing I don't recall anyone(PT, DT or Mr Fossil) seriously considering in the timeline, is whether OP may have had a second gun that either conveniently left the premises along with his cell and RS's purse(oh wait, wasn't that all kinda shuffled under the table...), or that the first set of "shots" may have come from making the holes in the bedroom door with his airgun/rifle.

All this controversy about first and second set of shots and whether or not the bat whacks could even have been heard by anyone, right up to OP himself calling the first sounds the Stipps referred to as the "first" shots could all be explained by him having also used a different gun, perhaps one that hadn't been used to actually shoot at RS(airgun found by the bedroom door, holes in the bedroom door...) and would actually lend credence to his ability to somewhat truthfully testify that he hadn't shot at RS, at least not for the first set of shots.... but was perhaps used to initially impress upon her what he'd have had to do if someone had come in because of her carelessness... iow's to scare her into apologizing for not locking up the patio doors like he'd asked and when that didn't get the response he wanted(perhaps RS grabbed her phone and threatened him back that she was going to call the police because of his over reaction) he freaked out(he did say everything changed in that moment...).

 

[foxbluff]

I don't believe Johnson's phone call was backed up by security records.

Sorry for coming into the middle of a debate here without knowing what times each poster is giving for Mr. Johnson.IDK if this helps or not, but I was just reviewing the State's HOA (Closing Statement) at Trial and happened to review pg. 77, under H. STATE'S WITNESSES AND SCREAMING and noted the below:"The screaming started moments after the first sounds Mr. Johnson made a call at 03:16 and the shots were fired shortly thereafter Mr.(sic) Stipp made a call at 03:15 The Johnson and Stipp couples heard the shots fired in the region of 03:17 and those were the shots that killed the deceased"

 

[foxbluff]

WOW, JudgeJ!!! Your Appeal transcription summary is a MAJOR CONTRIBUTION to the board at large and to the old fox in particular who can't stream audio/video. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU !!!!!!!!

 

[Interested Bystander]

But all the others were, so in terms of Dr Stipp's call, if we accept the alarm clock 'real time' of about 2:58, and the phone data record of 3:16/17, then they waited an awfully long time between hearing shots and a few screams (2-3 in his initial statement, but changed to 3-4 later), and making a call to security, before hearing the final set of bangs whilst on the phone.

I promised I would get back so here goes. Firstly I need to correct some timing. I have listened to Mrs Stipps evidence (not the cross ex that I listened to before). She does say the clock registered 03.17 when hearing the second set of sounds. Given that her clock is known to be 3-4 minutes fast she is talking about 03.13-03.14. So the length between the shots, on her timekeeping, was between 15-16 minute apart. I think I was confused a little by having listened to Roux and Nel arguing about the timing when both stated 03.17 for the second sounds. So we now have first sounds at 02.58 and second sounds at 03.13/14. If one follows OP's argument that the first sounds were in fact when he killed RS, he left it 21 minutes before calling Stander for help at 03.19. WHY? At 3.21 he told security he was OK or fine, ie did not need help. WHY? It seems neither OP or Stander had called for an ambulance until Stipp arrived. WHY?

I also ascertained why Mr Stipp may not have heard the second shots and the extra screaming. Having listened again to his testimony it appears he attempted to make at least four telephone calls and get himself dressed at the same time. He said there was noise in his ear at this time (maybe the calls connecting/ringing out?). I suggest this could have taken a good few minutes. There is some dispute about his first call which was not registered in the phone call evidence. He said he rang Security at about 03.07 but that he could not get through. So he did try to call for help. The phone call evidence does not show a call connected at this time but it seems nobody checked his mobile phone telephone log to confirm that in fact he did try to call. Seems a bit remiss to me. It could of course show he misdialled or it may be as Mr Fossil suggests (see his spreadsheet). He called again at ca 03.16 and gets through. Mrs Stipp, who I think made only one unsuccessful attempt at a phone call, heard the second shots and more screaming beforehand.

I need to listen again to Dr Stipp's testimony (doh!) because I have just read that Mr Fossil says that the light was recorded as being on at 03.16 but I am sure in Dr Stipp's testimony he says the lights were on immediately after the first sounds which make the timing to be 02.58-03.00. I know Mr Fossil wonders whether Mrs Stipp may have spent time getting up after registering the time of 03.02 (real time 02.58) and heard the shots a little later than I suggest but Oldwage takes her through this and she confirms she heard the shots at (real time) 02.58.

That's all I can dig up tonight. Now time to hit the sack.

 

[Marfa Lights]

Along with Judge Judi's helpful summation, I take heart in this review of the appeal hearing:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...ius-appeal-state-seeks-murder-conviction-live

Roux finds a reference in his notes. Leach says it does not support the defence argument that Masipa made a factual finding that Pistorius genuinely believed there was an intruder.

He didn’t know if it was a 12-year-old child or a man with a submachine gun, Leach says.

The fact that Pistorius was wrong is something else, says Roux.

Did he believe that he was entitled to shoot in those circumstances, Leach asks.

He thought his life was in danger, Roux insists. He was vulnerable and on his stumps.

Roux insists there was a factual finding by the trial court that Pistorius genuinely believed his life was in danger.

Show me, says Judge Leach.

Leach says the trial judge found Pistorius to be a “shocking” and “unreliable” witness, but then went on to accept his claim that he honestly believed his life was in danger, without evidence to support it.

He was armed with a firearm and went to confront the noise, Leach adds.

Roux asks, do we think he is lying?

Roux says it makes sense to him that Masipa ruled she could not find dolus eventualis because Pistorius genuinely thought it was an intruder in the cubicle.

But why does the identity matter, the bench wants to know: did Pistorius think he was entitled to shoot at whoever was behind the door?

Identity doesn’t come into it, says Roux, because it never entered Pistorius’ mind that the person behind the door was Steenkamp.

Roux is very animated; he is being pushed hard by the judges now.

Defence lawyer Barry Roux argues that the verdict of the high court should not be overturned.

Roux comes back. Pistorius believed his life was in danger, he says. He thought he was firing shots at an intruder.

He says the judge’s comments on dolus eventualis relate to whether the accused foresaw that it could have been Steenkamp in the cubicle. He did not, Roux says.

Leach: When he fired the bullets did he know there was a person behind the door?

The issue is whether Pistorius foresaw the consequences, Leach goes on. Masipa’s ruling was that he did not because he did not know that it was Steenkamp.

His view is that this intepretation is legally wrong.

Leach is still not happy. Masipa defined dolus eventualis correctly, he repeats, but she then failed to apply it to anything other than Steenkamp being behind the door.

Her analysis of dolus eventualis, it seems to me, was wrong …

The issue was he knew a person was in the cubicle.

That’s not really the issue, Roux interjects. Leach comes back:

Of course it’s the issue.