PA PA - Carol Dougherty, 9, Bristol, 22 Oct 1962

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by ScarlettScarpetta, Jan 25, 2013.

  1. ScarlettScarpetta

    ScarlettScarpetta When the going gets tough, drink coffee

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    Hopefully my hideous head cold will go away soon. I have some ideas that I want to look into and will get back to you.
     


  2. ScarlettScarpetta

    ScarlettScarpetta When the going gets tough, drink coffee

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    Okay. I am feeling better. And am trying to plan to get out and gather information.

    Im going to try and find Carol Ann Dougherty's obituary and other things. I have to go to a particular library to get papers that old and they are not open a lot when I can go.

    My plan is to get there in the next few weeks. Just wanted to give you an update.
     
  3. ScarlettScarpetta

    ScarlettScarpetta When the going gets tough, drink coffee

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    I am sorry, I have not replied. I have had sick kids and then they have been off so I have had no opportunity to do any searching.
    I hope to next week.
     
  4. ktgirl

    ktgirl Verified College Instructor

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    I think the "12" may just be someone's way of trying to tell the media/LE that a priest was involved. Maybe alluding to the 12 apostles, men who gave up their families & dedicated their lives to serving Christ, as priests do. I hope that make sense. That seems like the simplest answer....

    Unless there are 11 other victims that haven't bee connected to Carol Ann's killer. The other theory I have is that Carol Ann was the killer's 12th victim.

    I just don't get the sense that there's anything Satanic or "religious" (so to speak) about this murder (or connected to a secret Catholic society or something). It strikes me as a typical, opportunistic crime of a pedophile sicko rapist/murderer that just happened to take place in a church because that's where Carol Ann was alone & that's where this predator was as well. Nothing left at the scene (or arrangement of her body, etc) from what I've read points to anything Satanic or even religious in nature- just predatory & opportunistic (and that whoever murdered her may have used his position in the community as a priest to evade prosecution, whose crimes have long been covered up by the Church & who used his position as a priest as a way to lure unsuspecting children to him).
     
  5. ScarlettScarpetta

    ScarlettScarpetta When the going gets tough, drink coffee

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    This case haunts me. Last night I was watching the case of Irene Garza and it connected me right back to this. I want to believe the best about people who choose a path that is meant to help others, but after seeing this case last night on Anderson Cooper, I was immediately brought back to this case. And the priest.

    I wonder if the notes are just someone interested in the case that is trying to mess with people. I believe if it was someone who knew something or was involved, they would have been more dedicated in getting information out there or more letters...

    I don't know. I don't know how to help this case move forward. I wish I could..
     
  6. Lilachaze

    Lilachaze New Member

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    This may have been answered if it has ignore me. But I read that she said she was going to return some books to the library, did anyone ask if she made it to the library and returned the books? If not were the books found? Either in the church or by the bike? Did the killer take them as a trophy?
     
  7. ScarlettScarpetta

    ScarlettScarpetta When the going gets tough, drink coffee

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    I don't know. Now that I think about it.. I have to go back and read articles. I sent a message to CNN. See if they will look into it again. I just feel it needs a big news push and something may open up. Not just a local paper but something national.
     
  8. Saphyrrra

    Saphyrrra Member

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    Found this and it reminded me of something I've either read about the case before or a story.

    In regards to the 12, my thought possibilities:
    -were seats or pews numbered.. maybe they sat in the 12th every time?
    -were there choir boys/ushers/any group that has at least 12 members that someone would have been the 12th in the church at that time?

    I wonder how hard it would be for my federal investigator friend to get some of these files...or a police chief i know.....or if they can even request them like that. I'll have to find out because that would help a lot with different cold cases I've seen on this site.
     
  9. Pensfan

    Pensfan Former Member

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  10. Pensfan

    Pensfan Former Member

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    Yes, all RC and Byzantine Catholic females covered their heads regardless of whether they had taken their first Holy Communion at the time Carol was murdered. First Holy Communion is around 7 years or 2nd grade.

    Russian Orthodox (not Catholic) females still cover their heads when they enter churches. Extra scarves are kept on the coat hooks in case someone forgets their head covering.
     
  11. Pensfan

    Pensfan Former Member

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    The number 12 was substituted for the killer's name. The professional detective in this article felt the killer put that envelop with the 12 in it under the windshield wiper to taunt the detective. Therefore the killer believes "12" describes himself.
    http://www.phillyburbs.com/blogs/ne...cle_40e64d30-a3be-5a40-a5a7-3024fc64191e.html

    The 12 may be referring to the unnamed demonic spirits of the Holy Bible.
    http://polsong2000.tripod.com/identification__of__the__evil_.html

    jealousy
    lying
    familiarity (fortune telling)
    perversion
    heaviness
    whoredom
    infirmity
    deaf and dumb
    fear
    pride
    bondage
    Antichrist

    The 12 could have been chosen because of Jesus’ list of 12 evils that emanate from the heart:
    "fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly"
     
  12. Pensfan

    Pensfan Former Member

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    This article states that the collected info from Carol's murder investigation was handed over to a grand jury. Does that mean the prosecutor thought there was enough evidence to arrest a suspect, but the grand jury had to indict this person?

    Read more: http://archives.timesleader.com/199...D_OF_INVESTIGATORS_SOCIETY.html#ixzz2VZ2aNOqe
    http://archives.timesleader.com/199...NKED__SAYS_HEAD_OF_INVESTIGATORS_SOCIETY.html

    What does it mean that there was never a statement released (that I can find) that the grand jury refused to indict this person?
     
  13. Pensfan

    Pensfan Former Member

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    Found this:
    http://m.phillyburbs.com/blogs/news...cle_08667882-4fcf-5197-9306-be0506fe9b72.html

    Twenty-four-year-old Schrader was seen outside the church at 4:00 pm on the day of the murder. (How was he able to lock the front door of the church without a key? Maybe the church lock didn't require a key?)

    http://m.phillyburbs.com/blogs/news...cle_08667882-4fcf-5197-9306-be0506fe9b72.html

    Hmm. Scratches on the face would definitely cause people to remember someone. Maybe the driving test time stamp was wrong? Where is WR now? Has he stayed out of prison?
     
  14. Pensfan

    Pensfan Former Member

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  15. Pensfan

    Pensfan Former Member

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  16. time

    time New Member

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    "Among the evidence collected were several brown pubic hairs found in Carol’s hand. The investigators assumed they came from the killer, and each suspect was asked to provide hair samples for comparison."

    This DNA evidence... where is it?
     
  17. Pensfan

    Pensfan Former Member

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  18. Pensfan

    Pensfan Former Member

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    To date, the samples tested against the hairs found in Carol’s hand either don’t match or are inconclusive. But some of the original investigators I spoke with 20 years ago said they had doubts about the hair evidence. The stairwell landing where Carol had been attacked was dusty, and there were lots of hairs on the landing. It was possible that in the struggle with her killer, Carol had picked up some of those hairs.
    There was one more suspect, one that the police never interviewed. It was a man who made taunting phone calls to Chief Faragalli in the days immediately following the murder. The man said more children would die, but he never stayed on the line long enough for the calls to be traced.
    Cryptic messages about the murder were also left in envelopes at the police station. Faragalli told me he thought they probably were from that caller.
    When the Dougherty series was published in 1992, I received several taunting messages from a man who said the case would never be solved. An envelope with a cryptic message arrived in the newsroom, and another was left under the windshield wiper of my car. Then, nothing.
    Earlier this year, as the 50th anniversary approached, I and several editors began receiving odd emails, cryptic in tone, from an anonymous writer who said Carol’s killer would be revealed at least.
    The last email message came last summer and said I would be contacted by phone but, so far, nothing.
    http://m.phillyburbs.com/blogs/news...cle_08667882-4fcf-5197-9306-be0506fe9b72.html

    Although it might only be a kook, it would be interesting to know what info was found from this email’s IP number?
     
  19. Pensfan

    Pensfan Former Member

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    Thinking about the article where Marise Chiverella’s murder was stated to be linked to Carol Ann’s, here’s what I found:

    Sabadish’s sister’s obit shows that her body was embalmed at a funeral home in Minersville. She was from Branchdale which is approx 30 miles from Hazelton (where Marise disappeared). This is also where Joseph Sabadish’s body was embalmed. This is Joseph Sabadish’s “hometown” area. He attended the Catholic HS in Pottsville, PA.
    http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/sc...ry-t-sabadish-peggy&pid=108199496#fbLoggedOut

    Sabadish is actually the name ‘Sabados’ (It’s Slovakian. It was changed at Ellis Island like many Eastern European names were changed-mine included.)
    http://boards.ancestry.ca/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=1&p=surnames.sabados

    Sabadish’s mom was also Slovak (Veronica Miziscko). The church Marise Chiverello dropped by to donate canned foods before she was abducted was Saints Cyril and Methodius (Slovak church under Rome)
    http://sscmparish.com/History.html

    Joseph Sabadish likely spoke fluent Slovak/Czech (his grade school may have only spoken Czech like many in mining communities in PA until the 1960s). He was very likely to have known the priest at the Slovak Ss. Cyril and Methodius Church where Marise dropped off canned food.

    Marise disappeared along her walk from Alter Street down 4th Street to N. Laurel St. This walk took her directly in front of the parish residence for Ss. Cyril and Methodius. This was within a block of her school (St. Joseph’s School). Was Joseph Sabadish staying there that morning?
    Bristol’s HS basketball team (Sabadish was assigned to a parish in Bristol) had played in St. Joseph’s gym (on N Laurel St. where Marise attended) the night before she was murdered.

    Msgr Joseph Gavenda was the parish priest in 1964 at Ss. Cryril and Methodius Church. Is he still living? If I were Marise’s family, I'd make an unexpected visit to him and beg for answers.
     
  20. Pensfan

    Pensfan Former Member

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