PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[J. J. in Phila]

And that begs a question all it's own. Since it is not illegal to go missing and RFG has been declared dead, why has it not been released? Perhaps a FOIA request would be appropriate? If it is denied, that would point strongly to PSP knowing the whole story, but not telling.

I think as a current investigation, which exempts if from Sunshine laws.

Tossing the laptop would prevent anyone else from making the details of a hidden, possibly err..."interesting" relationship public and saving PF from less than kind public comment.

Demeanor would be not being able to dispose of the laptop on the first attempt and forcing it to be disposed of on the day of exit.

Before anyone gets in a huff...we are working on theories, not saying this is what happened.

But even that wouldn't tell us too much. Suppose he had the same kind of stuff a few that two Supreme Court justices had on theirs, and that is a hypothetical.

1. RFG is planning to commit suicide. Maybe he doesn't people to see that. He tosses it.

2. RFG is planning to walk away. He still doesn't want people to see that and he doesn't want them to see his travel plans. He tosses it.

3. RFG is planning to return from Lewisburg. He is planning to retire at the end of the year, and again, he doesn't people to see that. He knows that he will have to return the laptop. He tosses it, planning to come up with some story about how it happened. Then he meets someone and ends up dying.

Basically a wash, no matter what was on the laptop.

That is close enough for me.

1. The drive was in the small inlet about opposite from the park bench that faces the river. There is a tree and a picnic table southwest of the bench.

2. The laptop was found at the foot of the second support (from the Lewisburg side). It was on the north side.

That should easily put you within 40' of where each was found, but probably less.

 

[Trackergd]

1. The drive was in the small inlet about opposite from the park bench that faces the river. There is a tree and a picnic table southwest of the bench.

2. The laptop was found at the foot of the second support (from the Lewisburg side). It was on the north side.

That should easily put you within 40' of where each was found, but probably less.

Now that is really odd. Not to toss it into a lake where the water is deeper and it would most likely never be found unless someone hooked it fishing. Even less likely the laptop and drive would be hooked on the same day and two and two put together. Instead it was tossed into a moving river near the shore which gave it a high probability of washing back up on shore at some point...

Is the foot of the second support still on shore or out in the water (if you remember)?

 

[Trackergd]

Something else odd that may give some clarity to the events in Lewisburg. The report was that he was seen "fiddling with something", I don't remember if he was in the Mini or on a bench, but it may have taken him considerably longer to get the drive out than he anticipated, notably if he did not have the proper screwdrivers or tools. This occurred to me today when I saw an IT guy taking one out of a laptop at work. Some screws were small and I think at least one was a Torx head.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Now that is really odd. Not to toss it into a lake where the water is deeper and it would most likely never be found unless someone hooked it fishing. Even less likely the laptop and drive would be hooked on the same day and two and two put together. Instead it was tossed into a moving river near the shore which gave it a high probability of washing back up on shore at some point...

Is the foot of the second support still on shore or out in the water (if you remember)?

The support is in the water, even when found, in July. On the weekend RFG disappeared, it might have been under 5-15 feet of water. The spot where the drive was found was under at least 18" of water on that weekend and, from what I've heard, there was a large about of debris in the area.

You can see them here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/album.php?albumid=2153

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Something else odd that may give some clarity to the events in Lewisburg. The report was that he was seen "fiddling with something", I don't remember if he was in the Mini or on a bench, but it may have taken him considerably longer to get the drive out than he anticipated, notably if he did not have the proper screwdrivers or tools. This occurred to me today when I saw an IT guy taking one out of a laptop at work. Some screws were small and I think at least one was a Torx head.

The was one screw to remove the drive. He could have used a coin's edge, or he might have had a screwdriver with him.

The report I have is that he was in the Mini when seen "fiddling" with the laptop.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Now that is really odd. Not to toss it into a lake where the water is deeper and it would most likely never be found unless someone hooked it fishing. Even less likely the laptop and drive would be hooked on the same day and two and two put together. Instead it was tossed into a moving river near the shore which gave it a high probability of washing back up on shore at some point...

Is the foot of the second support still on shore or out in the water (if you remember)?

On 4/14/05, the "season" had not started at Raystown. I don't think there were boat rentals at that point.

The lake is a flooded valley, so I would expect most of the shoreline to be rather shallow. Marina's might be deeper, but they might be more regular dredging.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Since we have mentioned her in regard to the Gricar investigation, it looks like Parks Miller will be losing the Democratic Nomination, at least, for re-election; have the vote is in and it is about 70/30. She does have a shot at taking the Republican nomination on write-ins.

I will say this, SPM never promised to do anything about RFG, other than look at the files. She established a review committee, and, after there was no process, sent the case to the PSP. We had more information released under her in one year than there was in the prior four years.

I doubt if the next DA will do anything.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm posting this just to show that people can have psychological problems that occur suddenly without warning. http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/05/missing_middletown_woman_aleks.html#incart_most-read_

It is something like this which is one of the reasons why I do not rule out suicide in the case of RFG.

I do hope Ms. Reeves is found and that she is safe.

There is a thread on her here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...May-2017/page2&highlight=Aleksandra+A.+Reeves

 

[Ozoner]

I'm posting this just to show that people can have psychological problems that occur suddenly without warning. http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/05/missing_middletown_woman_aleks.html#incart_most-read_

It is something like this which is one of the reasons why I do not rule out suicide in the case of RFG.

I do hope Ms. Reeves is found and that she is safe.

There is a thread on her here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...May-2017/page2&highlight=Aleksandra+A.+Reeves

Considering that Ray was planning to retire, depression wouldn't have been that unusual.

His call to his girlfriend, reminding her to feed the dogs, could have been a final goodbye, almost like he was reaching for an excuse to call her and hear her voice one last time.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Considering that Ray was planning to retire, depression wouldn't have been that unusual.

His call to his girlfriend, reminding her to feed the dogs, could have been a final goodbye, almost like he was reaching for an excuse to call her and hear her voice one last time.

Depression is certainly possible.

The call was not directly to his girlfriend, PEF. RFG called the main courthouse number, not PEF's cellphone. PEF was covering for another worker that, from what I've heard, was in the rest room.

Also, PEF had left a note to RFG, asking him to call her if he didn't take care of the dog.

One thing about the call, however, was that he was just outside of Centre Hall when he made the call. Even driving normally, he was about 15-20 minutes from home.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I took a look at the route from where the call from the cell was made to RFG's residence. Driving at normal speeds it would take about 17-18 minutes, depending on the route.

RFG was known for driving above the speed limit. He was not too far away from home when he made that call. Had he delayed his departure 45 minutes to an hour, he could have left the dog out.

That leaves a couple of possibilities.

1. He just wanted to go out for a drive as soon as possible and didn't care if PEF has some errands to run.

2. He was planning to meet someone and to be at the meeting on time, or even a bit early to get rid of the laptop.

3. He wanted an electronic of where he last was, knowing that the police would be be able to check the records and start looking about 40 miles from where the car was. He also knew that the first place the police would look for him was along Route 192, and not in Lewisburg.

The call had the effect of #3, but that might not have been the intent.

The first thought of the police, when the searches began, was that he had been in an accident. That would basically be in rural areas where a wreck might have gone unnoticed. Also, at least in 2005, Route192 from about Rebersburg to outside of Lewisburg didn't have cell coverage. He could have been trapped in his car and couldn't call for help. So, where they started searching, was along 192. Also, on Sloane's suggestion, they called Jacobs Field in Cleveland.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't like these stories, but the body of a young boy was recovered from the Susquehanna; I think he was carried away be current 3-5 days ago. The body was found about 100 yards downstream from where he was last seen.

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/06/body_of_missing_8-year-old_boy.html#incart_river_home

I am posting this because we discuss the possibility of RFG's remains being in the river. Almost never is a body not found, and it usually found within half a mile of where it when it. The search, in 2005, was more extensive than this one.

I had a chance to stand along the Susquehanna a few months back. Every time I look, I see that it would be hugely unlikely that if RFG's body was in the Susquehanna, it would not have been found. How it got there makes virtually no difference. If RFG jumped, fell, or was pushed, into the Susquehanna, or if his body was dumped into it postmortem, it should have been recovered.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think this was mentioned a while back. Skeletal remains found in Cumberland County were identified as David Martin of Harrisburg, who was last seen in March of 2015.

 

[Ozoner]

Depression is certainly possible.

The call was not directly to his girlfriend, PEF. RFG called the main courthouse number, not PEF's cellphone. PEF was covering for another worker that, from what I've heard, was in the rest room.

Also, PEF had left a note to RFG, asking him to call her if he didn't take care of the dog.

One thing about the call, however, was that he was just outside of Centre Hall when he made the call. Even driving normally, he was about 15-20 minutes from home.

BBM

Now that is odd; I hadn't realized that.

Incidentally, I agree that Ray most likely did not end up in the river. If it was suicide, then I think he picked a remote location. Also, if he was trying to destroy the laptop, dropping it in the river where he intended to drown himself the same day wouldn't make sense because then his drowning would have led to a thorough search of the river and made discovery of the laptop likely.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

BBM

Now that is odd; I hadn't realized that.

Incidentally, I agree that Ray most likely did not end up in the river. If it was suicide, then I think he picked a remote location. Also, if he was trying to destroy the laptop, dropping it in the river where he intended to drown himself the same day wouldn't make sense because then his drowning would have led to a thorough search of the river and made discovery of the laptop likely.

BBM

PEF even said that RFG sounded a bit surprised that she picked up. From what I have heard, the other clerk was away from her desk, and it was by chance that she picked up.

The river is the "logical" place, for lack of a better term, for RFG to have committed suicide. His brother, Roy Gricar, committed suicide by jumping in a river in Ohio. There are superficial similarities, i.e. it was by a river near two bridges. The same can be said for 3-4 places along the Susquehanna, including at least one closer to Bellefonte.

According to RFG's nephew, and Roy's son, Tony, as he and his brother were driving down to Bellefonte on 4/16/05 they got a call that the Mini was found in Lewisburg. They were told that it was in a parking lot at the corner of at the corner of St. John and Water Streets. As soon as they heard "Water Street," the both said, almost in unison, "Suicide."

I can understand that reaction, based on their experience with their father's suicide.

Though it was discovered until 2011, there is a genetic component to both depression and depression that leads to suicide.

I do agree that RFG's body was not in the river. There is a wooded area directly across the river, including wetlands; it would be possible for a body to have remained the (or have been dumped there). That has been some of the area that Tracker and I have been talking about.

 

[Trackergd]

BBM
I do agree that RFG's body was not in the river. There is a wooded area directly across the river, including wetlands; it would be possible for a body to have remained the (or have been dumped there). That has been some of the area that Tracker and I have been talking about.

Since quite a bit of time has transpired and there might not be much in the way of remains, I was waiting until the forensic coil for my metal detector arrived and I had time to get used to it. Might be easier to pick up a wristwatch, shoe lace eyelets, dental fillings etc...

I missed that critical period where winter is over, the temperature is moderate and none of the green plants, weeds and poison ivy have not started to cover everything. Next chance is in the fall after the first hard frost.

I want to get out that way to get written landowner permission in advance. I also noticed on google view that on the other side of the rail bridge, you can still make out the old rail right of way and where it joined up to the main tracks. That has me a bit curious.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This is another new story that is not (or at least very unlikely to be) related to RFG, but it involves both the area and possible dead bodies.

In nearby Milton, a cadaver dog may have located the remains of a woman who has been missing since 1989.
http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/06/cadaver_dogs_give_indication_o.html#incart_river_home

If so, it might give hope to finding RFG's remains if they are in the wooded area across the river from Lewisburg.

Tracker is correct about still being able to see the old railroad right of way on the other side of the river; the area is informally known as "East Lewisburg." I will note, in addition, that there are several small streams that it would be fairly easy to walk along in that area as well.

I would note that the distance from across the parking lot across the bridge is about 2,100 feet, and under a mile and half from where the old tracks would have reached the main line of the railroad.

 

[Ozoner]

Let's suppose for argument's sake that Ray committed suicide in one of the undeveloped areas across the river. He may have wanted to take some time to walk and think--reminisce--so he may have wandered for quite a while. He could have covered a dozen miles if not a score.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Let's suppose for argument's sake that Ray committed suicide in one of the undeveloped areas across the river. He may have wanted to take some time to walk and think--reminisce--so he may have wandered for quite a while. He could have covered a dozen miles if not a score.

It is possible, but there are several arguments against it:

1. The area is not known for foot traffic, so it would be more likely for him to have been seen, and remembered.

2. If at night, there is no artificial lighting, except "porch light" types of stuff. I'd expect a trail of some sort. Torn clothing, broken or pushed down vegetation; it would also be harder to obscure his remains.

3. RFG was reported wearing some type of tennis shoe. Not have boots would limit the amount he could travel on rough terrain.

Remember, as well, that we are talking about 2-3 hours of daylight on Friday, from the last sightings.

Also, beyond that wooded area is the small village of Montandon. There isn't too much there, post office, school, a couple of banks, but a body would be spotted if it was outside. Beyond that are fields in cultivation. The farmer would notice something, at least by harvest.

In all of this, I'm assuming that the body was not deliberately hidden. I'm also considering that some of this area would be traversed by fishermen, fishing season started on 4/16/05, and eventually hunters. There is also children, from local homes and farms, playing in the woods.

On a map, I'd basically say anyplace between Housels Road and the east bank of the Susquehanna.

In terms of looking for a body that wasn't hidden postmortem, the woods would be the most likely choice.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'd also note that there are some wooded areas on the west bank in or around Lewisburg. There is an area that basically starts right behind the SoS. There is a larger wooded area basically between Bucknell's Campus and the river.