PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[Ozoner]

It is possible, but there are several arguments against it:

1. The area is not known for foot traffic, so it would be more likely for him to have been seen, and remembered.

2. If at night, there is no artificial lighting, except "porch light" types of stuff. I'd expect a trail of some sort. Torn clothing, broken or pushed down vegetation; it would also be harder to obscure his remains.

3. RFG was reported wearing some type of tennis shoe. Not have boots would limit the amount he could travel on rough terrain.

Remember, as well, that we are talking about 2-3 hours of daylight on Friday, from the last sightings.

Also, beyond that wooded area is the small village of Montandon. There isn't too much there, post office, school, a couple of banks, but a body would be spotted if it was outside. Beyond that are fields in cultivation. The farmer would notice something, at least by harvest.

In all of this, I'm assuming that the body was not deliberately hidden. I'm also considering that some of this area would be traversed by fishermen, fishing season started on 4/16/05, and eventually hunters. There is also children, from local homes and farms, playing in the woods.

On a map, I'd basically say anyplace between Housels Road and the east bank of the Susquehanna.

In terms of looking for a body that wasn't hidden postmortem, the woods would be the most likely choice.

Such a tough case in terms of coming to a particular conclusion.

If he didn't commit suicide, he couldn't have hidden his body post mortem, but could he have done anything to conceal his body beforehand? Maybe he swallowed a bottle of sleeping pills and then crawled into a culvert or into an abandoned mine shaft.

I thought this site had some interesting information related to deaths by suicide.

https://sites.google.com/site/dashdvservices//missing-personss/adult-male-suicidal

It doesn't say anything about people in Ray's situation hiding themselves, but it does say that people who commit suicide at home or at work sometimes try to conceal themselves.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Such a tough case in terms of coming to a particular conclusion.

If he didn't commit suicide, he couldn't have hidden his body post mortem, but could he have done anything to conceal his body beforehand? Maybe he swallowed a bottle of sleeping pills and then crawled into a culvert or into an abandoned mine shaft.

I thought this site had some interesting information related to deaths by suicide.

https://sites.google.com/site/dashdvservices//missing-personss/adult-male-suicidal

It doesn't say anything about people in Ray's situation hiding themselves, but it does say that people who commit suicide at home or at work sometimes try to conceal themselves.

Very good site. Thank you.

Tracker and I have been discussing that area to look for something along lines.

There was even a case in Germany where someone tied himself high in a tree and then killed himself. He was found, eventually, but it took several decades.

 

[Trackergd]

I sometimes wonder how much more PSP and RFG's Attorney know than we do.

Judging from the fact PF said that RFG sounded surprised that she answered the phone, I get the impression he wanted to avoid talking to her before going Lewisburg. Twinge of regret for what he was about to do?

Since PSP did not object when RFG was declared deceased, I would surmise they either have no idea, or suspect suicide or homicide over walk away.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I sometimes wonder how much more PSP and RFG's Attorney know than we do.

Judging from the fact PF said that RFG sounded surprised that she answered the phone, I get the impression he wanted to avoid talking to her before going Lewisburg. Twinge of regret for what he was about to do?

Since PSP did not object when RFG was declared deceased, I would surmise they either have no idea, or suspect suicide or homicide over walk away.

I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. PEF thought RFG sounded surprised; that doesn't mean RFG was surprised. Also, the call had to be routed through a main switchboard at the time: someone could not call the office directly. RFG just may have been surprised that the call went through without a noticeable pause.

The PSP did not have the case when RFG was declared dead. He was declared dead in July 2011 and the transfer was announced in February of 2014; the decision was made in November or December of 2013.

I suspect that both know more than we do, or that is public knowledge. Goodall, for example, has to have a more detailed understanding of RFG's finances.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There was a Facebook live cast on the Gricar case. There was a suggestion that people looking into the case have been threatened.

I would like to make it clear that I have never been threatened by anyone associated with this case, though I, at times disagree with people, and have had healthy arguments with them. I think anyone involved with the case knows who I am and can contact me through a variety of means.

 

[Trackergd]

There was a Facebook live cast on the Gricar case. There was a suggestion that people looking into the case have been threatened.

I would like to make it clear that I have never been threatened by anyone associated with this case, though I, at times disagree with people, and have had healthy arguments with them. I think anyone involved with the case knows who I am and can contact me through a variety of means.

I have never been threatened in the time I have been posting about this case. Curious to see if anything happens when I put boots on the ground in Lewisburg. Almost wish someone would, it would help me narrow down the probable scenarios.

 

[minazoe]

so interesting that there would be threats.

 

[Trackergd]

so interesting that there would be threats.

Yes, it is an interesting new dynamic. This string of RG threads has been going on for quite a while, yet new tidbits come out from time to time. If we are patient and string them together along with a bit of good old shoe leather poking about, we might just solve this one.

 

[minazoe]

well you are deeply optimistic,

I was wondering what happens to the timeline of this crime if we dismiss the possible sighting in lewisberg and the possible sighting of Ray driving his car that morning..what if it wasn't't ray driving , but more just the red mini that was spotted. I have a hard time with some witness statements as they can be wrong..people get confused especially if , say, they see Ray everyday the same car the same direction, etc...you are not really looking anymore, maybe not looking overtime to see Ray in the drivers seat.

dates and times of when Ray was seen and where..I just wonder...because its so hard to get water from the stone of the area where he supposedly killed himself....there is very little anything, which makes me wonder...like the cigarette butt...if the person that delivered the car to lewisberg was even Ray at all.

perhaps he was gone long before that, hours before. I just think he was murdered because you don't do this to your family... he knows the pain, he lived it.

this case is so HINKY, they need to start over.

something was going on...that was obvious in the preceding days. What though? they need to start over.

MOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It was the perception of a threat. There may have not been any intent.

In regard to the Mini, RFG's scent was detected in the parking lot in Lewisburg as well.

 

[minazoe]

but his car was there, hence his scent could be there, perhaps he was deceased in that parking lot. how much time before a dog smell decomp?
probably depends on the weather..

ahh Ray, please help us find you.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

but his car was there, hence his scent could be there, perhaps he was deceased in that parking lot. how much time before a dog smell decomp?
probably depends on the weather..

ahh Ray, please help us find you.

The bloodhound was there on the afternoon of 4/17. The dog circled where the scent terminated and the handler said that the dog was behaving as if RFG got into another car.

The was warn, low to mid 60's on the 15-16, with a slight breeze, and sunny. The wind was around 6 MPH on the 15th and 1 MPH on the 16.

https://www.wunderground.com/histor...reqdb.zip=17837&reqdb.magic=1&reqdb.wmo=99999

Sellinsgrove is a bit south of Lewisburg, so it would slightly cooler, possibly 1-2 degrees.

The lot was a mixture of dirt and gravel (small stone size).

Also, we have a number of witnesses that saw RFG in Lewisburg on 4/15-16. At least two of Friday's witnesses saw RFG in the Mini in the parking lot where it was found. This was on 4/15 around 5:00 PM.

Weather was good until Thursday 4/21, when there was light rain (0.06"); the next day the rain was heavier (0.84"). The cadaver dog was brought in on 4/19 or 4/20.

 

[Trackergd]

"the handler said that the dog was behaving as if RFG got into another car"

So Lewisburg seems to be:

Seen fiddling with something
Seen near the Mini
Seen at the SOS
Seen with a woman

The Laptop and Drive were found in the river and the dog was acting like RFG got into another car.

Curious. Wonder if the mystery woman was the smoker and it was her car that he got into? Just thinking out loud.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

"the handler said that the dog was behaving as if RFG got into another car"

So Lewisburg seems to be:

Seen fiddling with something
Seen near the Mini
Seen at the SOS
Seen with a woman

The Laptop and Drive were found in the river and the dog was acting like RFG got into another car.

Curious. Wonder if the mystery woman was the smoker and it was her car that he got into? Just thinking out loud.

To be more specific, RFG was seen by at least two witnesses with a woman in the SoS on the evening of 4/15/05. He was seen at various points driving the Mini, including in the parking lot around 5:00-6:00 PM.

The police initially thought, after the cigarette smoke and the reports that he was with a woman, that it was Petito; she was a smoker. Petito's whereabouts are accounted for at that time.

It is possible that it was the mystery woman, who would be a smoker. It is also possible that it was someone leaning into the car was smoking and dropped an ash.

The initial location in Lewisburg where RFG was spotted was across from the Packwood House Museum. He was in the Mini, got out at some point and sat on one of the benches. Where he was parked was within 100 yards of the place where the drive was tossed. It is possible that this was the point where he tossed the drive.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Perhaps showing gaps in RFG's timeline will be useful:

4/15/05

8:10-8:30 AM PEF and RFG get up; he goes back to sleep. PEF goes to work.

Gap: c. 8:10 AM - 11:15 AM. At some point, receives phone call from contractor.

11:15 AM - 1:00 PM Seen between 11:00 AM - 11:30 AM heading toward Centre Hall. 11:30 AM - 11:35 AM, seen turning on 192, at Centre Hall. Seen between 12:15 AM and 1:00 PM by witnesses in Lewisburg. Travel time at most would show at worst a 30 minute gap, and, at best, no gap.

Possible Gap 1:15 PM-5:00 PM: If the Fenton sighting is completely wrong, this gap exists. If Fenton sighting is correct there would be a maximum of about an 45 minute gap at the start of this, and as much as an hour at the end of this gap.

4:00 PM -7:00 PM McKnight's witness sees RFG at intersection of Route 15 and Hospital Drive, turning in the direction of the SoS between 4:00 PM - 5:00 PM. Seen after 5:00 PM moving Mini in the SoS parking lot. "Evening," probably before 7:00 PM, seen in SoS with "mystery woman."

Gap 7:00 PM 4/15-11:00 AM 4

11:00 AM - 11:30 AM Seen by two witnesses at the Remember When cafe in the SoS. Seen by owner, Bennett, at 11:30 AM.

Gap 11:30 AM -6:30 PM

6:30 PM Mini spotted by PSP.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There is a CNN story from 4/1515 that I don't think was cited, but it s quite good.

I cannot get the link to work, so you will have to Google it.

 

[Turnus]

There is a CNN story from 4/1515 that I don't think was cited, but it s quite good.

I cannot get the link to work, so you will have to Google it.

[video=cnn;crime/2011/11/18/sot-ray-gricar-disappearance.cnn]http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/15/us/ray-gricar-missing-prosecutor/index.html[/video]

This should be it. Long-time lurker here, but I love reading everyone's posts,. Especially yours, JJ.

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk

 

[formerjerseygirl]

I follow this case but don't usually post. This officer is not very believable to me. He seems to smirk a lot and does not appear to be serious about Ray being missing.

 

[formerjerseygirl]

I could not see the video well so i did some searching and found this -apologies if repeat but i found it interesting.
[video]http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/15/us/ray-gricar-missing-prosecutor/index.html[/video]

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I follow this case but don't usually post. This officer is not very believable to me. He seems to smirk a lot and does not appear to be serious about Ray being missing.

Which officer. The two investigators Zaggani (4/2005-1/2007), Richart (1/2007- c.8/2013), or the chiefs, Dixon (4/2005-12/2005) or Weaver (1/2006-11/2013)?

If it is the one on the tape, that is Weaver. He did not make a good impression on me in that interview.