Patsy Ramsey

[gramcracker]

some toileting issues are normal. some are not. for the record, having an opinion that the toileting issues being discussed here are normal is not a statement of fact. it is an opinion, and nothing more

 

[2 percent]

Im a girl myself so yes.

I don't find any real proof. To me the erosion could have been from continued abuse that night.

Like I said, vaginitis is very itchy, squirming-in-your-chair itchy. Have you ever seen a 6yr old girl who needs to go pee badly? They're not adults who cross their legs, etc. They are children who put their hands on their crotch and/or dance around saying they need to go. With vaginitis she would be scratching herself and squirming and probably talking about a burning sensation when going pee.
There are other indicators other than irritation. The discharge is very distinctive.

The ME used the word chronic in the autopsy referring to the inflammation. This is a professional term, not open to interpretation.
Chronic but not healed which means it probably happened 48-72hrs earlier.
Vaginitis, even if it cleared up on its own (it doesn't clear up in 3 days even with meds - 5 day treatment) would leave signs other than an eroded hymen.

 

[TaylurRose02]

Burke grew out of bedwetting. IT is not something they control.

It is not an indicator it is normal kid behavior. Bed wetting can run in families and all it means is there is a family of people who we the bed. It is not some huge indicator Or 1/3 the kids in america would have their parents investigated.

She did not have any symptoms of an abused child. None. Just as the FBI found out.

Did you even read anything I posted? I said the bed-wetting was NOT the reason I suspected abuse. I never claimed they could control it either, so I'm not sure where that came from. Regressing into infantile behavior such as bed wetting is an unconscious response common from children exposed to trauma. As is the change into children becoming "clingy" and insecure as I previously stated. Various doctors have disagreed and came to the conclusion that she was chronically abused. Read the medical reports and decide for yourself. I'm not here to convince you of anything. I just think that considering she had bathroom problems, reported changes in behavior, and abnormal genital qualities for her age that they are related. If you want to take the FBI's word over the doctors, that's fine. But keep in mind that the FBI also stated that the crime scene looked staged.

 

[RANCH]

Did you even read anything I posted? I said the bed-wetting was NOT the reason I suspected abuse. I never claimed they could control it either, so I'm not sure where that came from. Regressing into infantile behavior such as bed wetting is an unconscious response common from children exposed to trauma. As is the change into children becoming "clingy" and insecure as I previously stated. Various doctors have disagreed and came to the conclusion that she was chronically abused. Read the medical reports and decide for yourself. I'm not here to convince you of anything. I just think that considering she had bathroom problems, reported changes in behavior, and abnormal genital qualities for her age that they are related. If you want to take the FBI's word over the doctors, that's fine. But keep in mind that the FBI also stated that the crime scene looked staged.

I'm confused with your post. When you say "Regressing into infantile behavior such as bed wetting is an unconscious response common from children exposed to trauma" isn't that the same as saying that the bed-wetting in this case is a sign of abuse?

 

[Meara]

Burke grew out of bedwetting. IT is not something they control.

It is not an indicator it is normal kid behavior. Bed wetting can run in families and all it means is there is a family of people who we the bed. It is not some huge indicator Or 1/3 the kids in america would have their parents investigated.

She did not have any symptoms of an abused child. None. Just as the FBI found out.

Bed wetting can run in families and all it means is there is a family of people who we the bed.

You're right. It can run in families. But did it run in this family? The information does not support your argument unless you can prove that it applies specifically to the Ramseys. Was there a history of bedwetting among the older Ramsey children? Among Patsy and her siblings? Among John and his siblings? Among her grandparents, or cousins, if any? You'd have to establish that link to make your claim legitimate.



It is not some huge indicator Or 1/3 the kids in america would have their parents investigated.

No; probably just the ones who ended up dead in their homes.

I have not seen anyone here argue that bedwetting is the overriding factor in the case. In fact, as many posters have taken some trouble to explain, the bedwetting is significant taken together with other factors; e.g., marked regression in toilet training, evidence at autopsy of chronic vaginal injury, JBR's violent death at home, and signs of unusual anxiety in the weeks leading up to her death.

A child's bedwetting may or may not be a sign that something is wrong at home. Evaluating it in the context in which it occurs, rather than isolating it from that context, gives the clearer picture.

 

[TaylurRose02]

I'm confused with your post. When you say "Regressing into infantile behavior such as bed wetting is an unconscious response common from children exposed to trauma" isn't that the same as saying that the bed-wetting in this case is a sign of abuse?

It is a sign. This isn't disputed. I was referring to where Scarlett said the kids couldn't control it and Burke grew out of it. I was aware that bed wetting is not controllable and was explaining that the possible reason JB got worse was in response to trauma and Burke got better in response to the loss of trauma. Bed wetting on its own isn't indicative of abuse, but when paired with the previously stated findings, I'd say it's safe to assume the bed wetting was a result of abuse.

 

[RANCH]

It is a sign. This isn't disputed. I was referring to where Scarlett said the kids couldn't control it and Burke grew out of it. I was aware that bed wetting is not controllable and was explaining that the possible reason JB got worse was in response to trauma and Burke got better in response to the loss of trauma. Bed wetting on its own isn't indicative of abuse, but when paired with the previously stated findings, I'd say it's safe to assume the bed wetting was a result of abuse.

That makes it a bit clearer. So when you replied with "I said the bed-wetting was NOT the reason I suspected abuse" you meant that it was a reason but not by itself. I hope I got it right. Thanks.

 

[TaylurRose02]

:seeya:

That makes it a bit clearer. So when you replied with "I said the bed-wetting was NOT the reason I suspected abuse" you meant that it was a reason but not by itself. I hope I got it right. Thanks.

Scarlett replied to me with "It is not some huge indicator Or 1/3 the kids in america would have their parents investigated." I was explaining that bed wetting is not the sole reason I suspected abuse it only added to my conclusion that it was happening. She disregarded the other reasons I had stated as to why I believed there was abuse, so I was restating the fact that bed wetting alone is not solely indicative of sexual abuse, it is indicative when other signs are present as well. So yes, it was one reason that added to my conclusion that JB may have been a victim of sexual abuse. Sorry for the confusion :blushing:

 

[RANCH]

:seeya:

Scarlett replied to me with "It is not some huge indicator Or 1/3 the kids in america would have their parents investigated." I was explaining that bed wetting is not the sole reason I suspected abuse it only added to my conclusion that it was happening. She disregarded the other reasons I had stated as to why I believed there was abuse, so I was restating the fact that bed wetting alone is not solely indicative of sexual abuse, it is indicative when other signs are present as well. So yes, it was one reason that added to my conclusion that JB may have been a victim of sexual abuse. Sorry for the confusion :blushing:

It's okay. I think that one can say that the bed-wetting doesn't have anything to do with this case when looking at the intruder evidence and the overall picture.

I don't disregard the points you make about this being evidence of abuse. At the same time I do have to say that I disagree with your conclusions.

MOO.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Did you even read anything I posted? I said the bed-wetting was NOT the reason I suspected abuse. I never claimed they could control it either, so I'm not sure where that came from. Regressing into infantile behavior such as bed wetting is an unconscious response common from children exposed to trauma. As is the change into children becoming "clingy" and insecure as I previously stated. Various doctors have disagreed and came to the conclusion that she was chronically abused. Read the medical reports and decide for yourself. I'm not here to convince you of anything. I just think that considering she had bathroom problems, reported changes in behavior, and abnormal genital qualities for her age that they are related. If you want to take the FBI's word over the doctors, that's fine. But keep in mind that the FBI also stated that the crime scene looked staged.

It is not infantile behavior. That Is what I am taking umbrage with. This is something that thousands of kids deal with. It is not anything more than a process of their growing up. Some kids have better control than others, Some kids just don't like to come in to pee when they are playing and wet themselves. Some kids wet the bed some don't. It is not an indication of something bigger. Not unless there are other huge issues and there were not here. There is no history of abuse. No investigations. No reports from the school. She took this child to the dr all the time.

I take the FBI's word because they investigated it all. I believe them because there is no proof that this child was ever abused.

 

[DeeDee249]

It isn't the bedwetting so much. But pooping in the bed is a huge red flag.
Lots of kids wet the bed. But what is abnormal in THIS case is that JB was completely trained and dry at age 3 and resumed wetting and soiling her bed not long before she died.
It is also VERY ABNORMAL when kids that age wet and soil themselves when AWAKE.
So is is not the bedwetting- it is the other issues I mentioned- that say there was something very wrong in that house.

 

[RANCH]

It isn't the bedwetting so much. But pooping in the bed is a huge red flag.
Lots of kids wet the bed. But what is abnormal in THIS case is that JB was completely trained and dry at age 3 and resumed wetting and soiling her bed not long before she died.
It is also VERY ABNORMAL when kids that age wet and soil themselves when AWAKE.
So is is not the bedwetting- it is the other issues I mentioned- that say there was something very wrong in that house.

If a kid has an accident when awake does that mean they where abused?

 

[Meara]

It isn't the bedwetting so much. But pooping in the bed is a huge red flag.
Lots of kids wet the bed. But what is abnormal in THIS case is that JB was completely trained and dry at age 3 and resumed wetting and soiling her bed not long before she died.
It is also VERY ABNORMAL when kids that age wet and soil themselves when AWAKE.
So is is not the bedwetting- it is the other issues I mentioned- that say there was something very wrong in that house.

ITA. It's not the bedwetting per se that's infantile but the regression to it after having been completely potty trained. It is inaccurate + misleading to characterize JBR as a child who just needed more time to outgrow bedwetting.

 

[noneareworthy]

First kids that wet beds mean nothing more than they are bedwetting. That is a common problem that many many kids have. It means NOTHING.

The fecal issue is not one that should be brought up because I see no proof of that here. Kids having accidents is common.
I know children that have issues with pooping and I provided a link that shows that there are good reasons for it that have nothing to do with anything nefarious.

You want to put someone on trial? Do it because there is evidence they murdered someone. Not because their kids wet the bed.

A SIGN of something not right....I didn't say murder. The fact that both children had issues is strange. If a girl in a first grade classroom continually has urinary issues, smells like pee, wets her pants, etc I can guarantee you the teacher would report to cps. Could've been someone nearby not necessarily mother or father causing the disturbance...too bad there wasn't complete cooperation

 

[Venom]

Apparently the point is being lost or just ignored.

 

[TaylurRose02]

It is not infantile behavior. That Is what I am taking umbrage with. This is something that thousands of kids deal with. It is not anything more than a process of their growing up. Some kids have better control than others, Some kids just don't like to come in to pee when they are playing and wet themselves. Some kids wet the bed some don't. It is not an indication of something bigger. Not unless there are other huge issues and there were not here. There is no history of abuse. No investigations. No reports from the school. She took this child to the dr all the time.

I take the FBI's word because they investigated it all. I believe them because there is no proof that this child was ever abused.

I can't debate with you on this subject if you keep ignoring every point except the one you feel like reiterating that I've already answered twice.

 

[RANCH]

Apparently the point is being lost or just ignored.

I'm not sure what the point about the bed-wetting is myself. I don't see anyone ignoring anything though.

 

[gramcracker]

A SIGN of something not right....I didn't say murder. The fact that both children had issues is strange. If a girl in a first grade classroom continually has urinary issues, smells like pee, wets her pants, etc I can guarantee you the teacher would report to cps. Could've been someone nearby not necessarily mother or father causing the disturbance...too bad there wasn't complete cooperation

you'd almost think so, wouldn't you? I know I would, prior to realizing the layers in this case. unfortunately, very little in this case happened as expected

I realize that those employed at a school are mandated reporters. but ... this was a private school and much of its success relied on the willingness of the parents to participate. PR was one of the school's most prominent and active volunteers and boosters. MO re this particular topic (a child smelling of urine and/or having daytime wetting issues at school) is that it's not beyond belief that it may not have been reported to CPS

prior to this case I had never imagined that district attorneys would sit in the FBI's national headquarters and say that, rather then issuing subpoenas for pertinent records and calling for a GJ, it was a good idea to simply ASK the POIs for their cooperation/information. much to the disbelief of the federal agents who sat there and heard it said! and what boggles the mind is that the long-standing evasion and lack of cooperation by the family is what precipitated the meeting! DAs have a mandate to assist LEOs with their investigation and that was ignored. DAs have a mandate to prosecute when a TB is returned and that was ignored. in the perfect storm which was this case I can easily see that there may have been an end run around CPS, wherein the school decided to deal with it privately, or not at all, and ignored its mandate

IMO a family does not expect/request an "island of privacy" re medical/school records during their child's murder investigation unless there is something to hide

 

[bettybaby00]

LS= ignored crime scene report: JRBs sheets reeked of urine that morning.

Anything that didn't "fit" was ignored. Just like ML did. She hired Kolar to investigate & when she didn't like his findings she ignored him too, even after he debunked all aspects of an intruder as espoused & taken as fact by LS.

 

[DeDee]

Yes it is. And there is no proof of any child defecating in a bed but they do that too.

It is so common it has a name. Encopresis. http://kidshealth.org/parent/emotions/behavior/encopresis.html

A child of JBR age who had frequent urinary issues could absolutely have issues with urinating that were not even under her control. But many many kids pee their pants when playing or waiting too long.

Kids have biological issues just as adults. Some kids bed wet until puberty.

All these things are normal for that Child. They may have medical reasons or psychological reasons but it is normal to have kids with wet pants and bathroom issues.

http://kidshealth.org/parent/emotions/behavior/encopresis.html

Encopresis is a symptom not a disease and not many children suffer the symptom. Incidentally, children with encopresis have a higher incidence of ADHD.

"Although encopresis is estimated to affect 1% to 2% of kids under the age of 10..."

That is not common.

First kids that wet beds mean nothing more than they are bedwetting. That is a common problem that many many kids have. It means NOTHING.

The fecal issue is not one that should be brought up because I see no proof of that here. Kids having accidents is common.
I know children that have issues with pooping and I provided a link that shows that there are good reasons for it that have nothing to do with anything nefarious.

You want to put someone on trial? Do it because there is evidence they murdered someone. Not because their kids wet the bed.

The misrepresenting of the facts as we know them to be must stop.

JB exhibited signs and symptoms of nocturnal enuresis [bedwetting] as well as daytime enuresis. Patsy admitted, in her interviews, that she intended to pack diapers for the Big Red Boat trip. JB did not once spend the night away from home with a friend but their parents took JB and her dirty underwear in a bag back home with her on occasion after a play date.

Nocturnal Enuresis
By age 5 or 6, 85% of children can stay dry, but some children still wet the bed from time to time until age 10 or 12.

http://www.webmd.com/children/guide/bed-wetting-urinary-incontinence-children

15% of children still release urine in their bed at age of 5 or 6. That is not common.

Furthermore, there is evidence of fecal issues in the household. Interesting that there are five locations where fecal matter is located in the home at TOD which is a critical point during the investigation. The locations are, in no particular order, as follows:

1) Smeared outside of the basement bathroom on the wall

2) Smeared inside the pants located on JBs bathroom floor

3) Smeared on a box of chocolates in JBs bedroom

4) Smeared inside a pair of pj bottoms that appeared to be BRs on JBs bedroom floor

5) Unflushed matter in the toilet of JBs bathroom

That is not common.

And why does a household have a package of diapers hanging out of a cabinet when the ages of the children are 6 and 9 if there were not toileting issues?

That is not common.

The evidence can be ignored by stating there is no proof of these things but what did the GJ listen to for two years if not this evidence?

It took a while for witnesses to cover and convey 30,00 pages of case files to the Ramsey GJ.

Lest it's been forgotten, LS sued to present his paranormal intruder theory and the GJ still issued two TBs against JR and PR that included charges of child abuse that led to their daughter's death.

To claim that the GJ was presented with falderal is an insult to the citizens who remained sworn Grand Jurors for 2yrs and suggesting such actions occurred should not be tolerated.