Patsy Ramsey

Pineapple does not take that long to leave the stomach. It is not possible. Research on the digestion times of various foods will explain that quite well, and the links have been provided numerous times. There are even numerous sites explaining the digestion time of pineapple specifically, among other specific examples of various foods.

She did not eat the pineapple before leaving for the party.
 
This reasoning just seems illogical and biased to me, of course they would send their son away from such a traumatic crime scene but a bias towards them twists it into something sinister when in every single other situation like it, the crime scene is contained. Children are sent to other locations. :waitasec::waitasec:

How is that biased? It's lying 101. The fact that they demonstrated behaviors associated with lying isn't biased. The behaviors associated with lying weren't determined to fit the Ramsey's behavior. The Ramsey's behavior fit the behaviors associated with lying.

First off, there was no traumatic crime scene at the time he was sent away. Her body had not been found yet. You're telling me that most parents would send their child away from police protection and themselves when there was a foreign faction targeting their family? Yes, normally those witness to a crime are sent to police stations for questioning. In this case, the father of the child that was kidnapped by terrorists sent his son to an unprotected location away from him and PR. I have children, so maybe it makes me biased. I can't understand how that would seem like the right choice to make as a parent.
 
Could someone refresh my memory because I can't remember if the green fecal matter found in the large intestine was determined to be the crab or a different food source if identified at all?
 
Pineapple does not take that long to leave the stomach. It is not possible. Research on the digestion times of various foods will explain that quite well, and the links have been provided numerous times. There are even numerous sites explaining the digestion time of pineapple specifically, among other specific examples of various foods.

She did not eat the pineapple before leaving for the party.
Medical experts, according to sources I've linked, say it's absolutely possible.
 
Could someone refresh my memory because I can't remember if the green fecal matter found in the large intestine was determined to be the crab or a different food source if identified at all?
I don't believe so...
 
Medical experts, according to sources I've linked, say it's absolutely possible.

Can you quote where it says that in your links? I read them and did not see anything that discussed pineapple (or specific foods at all) directly.

All foods digest at different rates.
 
There are a few more alternatives, one being: JonBenét ate the pineapple before leaving her home for the White's. ...according to at least two medical examiners consulted by the BPD/BDA.


I have to look back at the actual transcripts, but if that were so, it's kind of weird the Ramseys were so confused about it.

But now from what I'm reading - the substance was never determined to be pineapple? I thought someone said it had been matched to fresh pineapple. If the contents of her stomach were not conclusively established, that obviously makes things different.

It seems pretty clear that a meal moves from your stomach to your large intestine in a maximum of 6 hours in most people, barring some condition. A small bit of pineapple is not going to take nearly that long. It seems like an extreme stretch to say it was from before the party, but I'm going to need to look at exactly what was found. Sometimes I refer to evidence in this case that turns out to be way overstated on these boards - it is hard to keep straight what exactly we know.
 
JB's stomach was empty except for 8 - 10 cc of a mucous-y/liquid-y substance. the last solid food she ate had moved from the stomach to the small intestine. (8 - 10 cc = 1.5 - 2 teaspoons)

the content of the small intestine was later tested and was determined to be raw pineapple, per the Schiller/Thomas/Kolar books

click on JonBenet Autopsy (under Case Materials) on this page
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetindex.htm

on the next page, click on Page 7 of the AR
http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996autopsy.htm

"... The proximal portion of the small intestine contains fragmented pieces of yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple. ... "
http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996jonbenet07.gif

(as has been posted many times) the ME describes what he sees, ie: saying yellow metal rather than gold. if he said/dictated "may represent fragments of pineapple" ... it looked to him like pineapple. (and later was properly identified as such)

IIRC the soft/green fecal material found in the large intestine would be beyond testing for specific composition
 
How is that biased? It's lying 101. The fact that they demonstrated behaviors associated with lying isn't biased. The behaviors associated with lying weren't determined to fit the Ramsey's behavior. The Ramsey's behavior fit the behaviors associated with lying.

First off, there was no traumatic crime scene at the time he was sent away. Her body had not been found yet. You're telling me that most parents would send their child away from police protection and themselves when there was a foreign faction targeting their family? Yes, normally those witness to a crime are sent to police stations for questioning. In this case, the father of the child that was kidnapped by terrorists sent his son to an unprotected location away from him and PR. I have children, so maybe it makes me biased. I can't understand how that would seem like the right choice to make as a parent.

Ok the fact that you say there "was no traumatic crime scene" at the time speaks EXACTLY to the problem with the people who are biased towards the Ramseys.

This is spot on what the problem is. Too many people act like they are lying and they know it and therefore do not consider at all what the REALITY would be if this crime really did go down in an IDI way.

If I woke up and my child was missing and a ransom note was there I would most definitely think it was a traumatic crime scene. I'd remove my other children immediately to protect them from overhearing horrible things and from seeing their parents in shock.

I wouldn't necessarily remember everything exactly correctly because I'd be so blown away about what happened. I'd be in a state of emotional devastation and shock and close to panic.

I'd call my friends to come over immediately because I wouldn't be able to stand it alone, even with hubby there, my friends are more supportive to me in that way.


That's where the twisting and bias comes in. Because you think they did it, you just assume that there wouldn't be any emotional fall out or shock. The whole thing was a ruse. And therefore anything that doesn't match up with that is dismissed.

So to reiterate, waking up and finding your sister kidnapped is indeed a traumatic crime scene.


And then your statement that as a parent you see it one way. I'm a parent too. Well I don't think I'd necessarily trust the police as much as you would. I would want to minimize the fear for my other child and sending them to another persons home is better IMO than sending the child to a police station. I would definitely NOT want to send a nine year old child to a police station by themselves while I sat in the house. And I'd think it very unlikely that it was a "foreign faction" and were it truly to be a foreign faction I wouldn't think they'd risk showing themselves to abduct my other son. I know exactly what I'd do. I'd call my friend and ask her to come to take my son and stay with him until we figured out what was going on.

Obviously as parents we'd have two different reactions to the situation. The difference for me is that I wouldn't be sitting there telling you that my way of doing it is legit and your way is wrong. I'd accept that we'd have different reactions.
 
I agree there is a bias, but I don't understand what is "completely implausible" about what I said. I said it was curious, not telling, because I agree that people go way too hard on the family about things that could have other explanations, and I'm not convinced RDI.

At the same time, narrow my explanation down to one sentence: They said she went right to bed and was asleep from the car ride. (If that is correct, but that's what I see repeated).

That's a rather implausible thing to misremember, although possible. It would be hard to forget feeding her or leaving her alone somewhere before taking her to bed if you remember carrying her asleep right upstairs.

That leaves her getting up at night. It seems like quite a set up for her if that wasn't something she normally did - getting the bowl and all that out of a cabinet instead of sneaking down and grabbing a few pieces, but it is possible. There's a first time for everything. I know I definitely would not have done that as a kid, and my mom would be awake in a second if I was moving around, but obviously the Ramseys slept through whatever happened, based on their story. Yes, kids lot do a lot of things parents don't expect, but the kids of controlling parents actually generally don't, at least not until they are teens. Things that seem like nothing to some families seem like insanity to others - I know it sounds weird, but my parents would be flipping out if I got up in the middle of the night without permission and began eating as a child. Even now they'd come down and ask what the heck I was doing, and I'm 25. So it depends on the dynamics.

The house was huge, it's very possible that they wouldn't have heard her. To be honest I don't get how they could set up their house that way, because it was so big, the kids were sitting ducks.

And kids of controlling parents act all sorts of different ways but especially if they were weren't allowed to have something. I remember once as a kid sneaking a box of cookies and eating them all knowing full well we'd get busted by my psycho mother. It's possible.



That said, my parents would also say "no, there's no way she would" - so that in some ways does go in the Ramseys favor, as you said. Why limit the story more by denying it?

Exactly



The only explanation would be that they were nervous and knew she wouldn't have done it, and kind of just got flustered.

I don't think it's the only explanation. And I don't think they would have adhered to it so firmly. They did after all have lawyers to consult. A lawyer would tell them to say they don't remember and not to carve it in stone that way. And as far as flustered goes, people act like this was just BAM dumped on them the night of their crime. It took quite some time for the results to come back in. In the interim they had the bowl on the table with Pineapple in it. There's a reality there. If they realized they had forgotten they fed her they could say "I remember earlier her asking for pineapple and I said no, I guess she snuck down and got some."




It's not a very good explanation - I agree it makes more sense that they were telling the truth on that from a logical perspective. But then add in the alternative - she got up herself and happened to run into an intruder who wanted her, or an intruder woke her and decided to serve her pineapple before assaulting her. I mean, that's even harder for me to believe. It's easier for me to believe that the Ramseys stupidly denied giving her pineapple, since people regularly say idiotic things in police interrogations even when there is a more believable alternative, than it is for me to believe an intruder served her pineapple in her own home and risked getting caught, which I don't think really ever happens.


Well let's think of it really. If an intruder came into the house to rob them and they found her awake eating pineapple then they'd not have anticipated that. They might have taken the opportunity for revenge.

Or she snuck down and ate pineapple and went back up to bed before the intruder got there. That's a real possibility. It doesn't take hours to eat a snack.
 
Can you quote where it says that in your links? I read them and did not see anything that discussed pineapple (or specific foods at all) directly.
You're asking me to quote the research I've consulted that contradicts your argument, quoted & BBM below?
Tawny said:
Pineapple does not take that long to leave the stomach. It is not possible. Research on the digestion times of various foods will explain that quite well, and the links have been provided numerous times. There are even numerous sites explaining the digestion time of pineapple specifically, among other specific examples of various foods. She did not eat the pineapple before leaving for the party.
I'm not sure how you've determined this to be an impossibility. It is possible, it is plausible, and research indicates such; from the link @ Colorado State:
How long does food stay in my stomach? How long is it before a meal reaches the large intestine? The answer to such commonly-asked questions is not necessarily simple.

First, there is considerable normal variability among healthy people and animals in transit times through different sections of the gatrointestinal tract. Second, the time required for material to move through the digestive tube is significantly affected by the composition of the meal. Finally, transit time is influenced by such factors as psychological stress and even gender and reproductive status.​

It is unlikely that the only food consumed by JonBenét, on the 25th, was pineapple. We don't know how often, how much, nor how 'mixed' her diet was Christmas Day. Assuming JonBenét had eaten foods other than pineapple, periodically, on the 25th then we can rely somewhat on the averages listed from the same source, below:
50% of stomach contents emptied---2.5 to 3 hours
Total emptying of the stomach---4 to 5 hours
50% emptying of the small intestine---2.5 to 3 hours
Transit through the colon ---30 to 40 hours.​
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/transit.html
 
You're asking me to quote the research I've consulted that contradicts your argument, quoted & BBM below?
I'm not sure how you've determined this to be an impossibility. It is possible, it is plausible, and research indicates such; from the link @ Colorado State:
How long does food stay in my stomach? How long is it before a meal reaches the large intestine? The answer to such commonly-asked questions is not necessarily simple.

First, there is considerable normal variability among healthy people and animals in transit times through different sections of the gatrointestinal tract. Second, the time required for material to move through the digestive tube is significantly affected by the composition of the meal. Finally, transit time is influenced by such factors as psychological stress and even gender and reproductive status.​

It is unlikely that the only food consumed by JonBenét, on the 25th, was pineapple. We don't know how often, how much, nor how 'mixed' her diet was Christmas Day. Assuming JonBenét had eaten foods other than pineapple, periodically, on the 25th then we can rely somewhat on the averages listed from the same source, below:
50% of stomach contents emptied---2.5 to 3 hours
Total emptying of the stomach---4 to 5 hours
50% emptying of the small intestine---2.5 to 3 hours
Transit through the colon---30 to 40 hours.​
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/transit.html


Isn't that based on adults?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
While I think that most parents in this situation would send their kid off at some point, I can't get past that in the hours after finding one child kidnapped that they left their other child upstairs alone.... Did not ask him if he had heard anything when he was the closest to jbr's room. Did not feel the need to keep him close. Did not feel the need to wake him up to make sure he was ok.
 
Ok the fact that you say there "was no traumatic crime scene" at the time speaks EXACTLY to the problem with the people who are biased towards the Ramseys.

This is spot on what the problem is. Too many people act like they are lying and they know it and therefore do not consider at all what the REALITY would be if this crime really did go down in an IDI way.

If I woke up and my child was missing and a ransom note was there I would most definitely think it was a traumatic crime scene. I'd remove my other children immediately to protect them from overhearing horrible things and from seeing their parents in shock.

I wouldn't necessarily remember everything exactly correctly because I'd be so blown away about what happened. I'd be in a state of emotional devastation and shock and close to panic.

I'd call my friends to come over immediately because I wouldn't be able to stand it alone, even with hubby there, my friends are more supportive to me in that way.


That's where the twisting and bias comes in. Because you think they did it, you just assume that there wouldn't be any emotional fall out or shock. The whole thing was a ruse. And therefore anything that doesn't match up with that is dismissed.

So to reiterate, waking up and finding your sister kidnapped is indeed a traumatic crime scene.


And then your statement that as a parent you see it one way. I'm a parent too. Well I don't think I'd necessarily trust the police as much as you would. I would want to minimize the fear for my other child and sending them to another persons home is better IMO than sending the child to a police station. I would definitely NOT want to send a nine year old child to a police station by themselves while I sat in the house. And I'd think it very unlikely that it was a "foreign faction" and were it truly to be a foreign faction I wouldn't think they'd risk showing themselves to abduct my other son. I know exactly what I'd do. I'd call my friend and ask her to come to take my son and stay with him until we figured out what was going on.

Obviously as parents we'd have two different reactions to the situation. The difference for me is that I wouldn't be sitting there telling you that my way of doing it is legit and your way is wrong. I'd accept that we'd have different reactions.

There was no body. Nothing. Only a note. Which is why I have trouble understanding why the parents chose to send their only other child away from themselves and police protection. If you don't trust police, that's your choice. But at that time, the Ramsey's had no reason to not trust them (that morning prior to finding the body). They called police themselves.

I think you're confusing things a little bit. BR wasn't going to be taken away to the police station. I said normally those witness to a crime were questioned soon after the crime at a police station or interrogation room. In the Ramsey case, police wanted to ask BR if he had heard anything that night and JR sent his son away from BPD and himself to the Whites without being questioned at the home. I wouldn't send my child alone to a police station either. So why would I send my child to a friend's house without protection? I would want them as close to me as possible. Yes, a kidnapping is traumatic, but there were only 3 people in the home that night to have possibly heard something and one of them was taken away without questioning to an unprotected location while a terrorist group was targeting their family.

I wouldn't want my child to hear anything harmful either, but I know I wouldn't send him away with friends without even asking him if he had heard or seen anything that night. I would want him in the home, in another room, out of earshot of anything bad being discussed. And for the record, the Ramsey's obviously didn't trust the Whites very much considering they labeled them suspects. Which only furthers my point about it being odd that they sent their son with people they didn't completely trust the morning that their daughter was kidnapped by a foreign faction.

I never said your way is wrong, nor did I say my way was right. I explained why I felt the way the way that I did just like you just did. I don't know where you got that from, but I'm sorry you took my post that way.
 
You're asking me to quote the research I've consulted that contradicts your argument, quoted & BBM below?
I'm not sure how you've determined this to be an impossibility. It is possible, it is plausible, and research indicates such; from the link @ Colorado State:
How long does food stay in my stomach? How long is it before a meal reaches the large intestine? The answer to such commonly-asked questions is not necessarily simple.

First, there is considerable normal variability among healthy people and animals in transit times through different sections of the gatrointestinal tract. Second, the time required for material to move through the digestive tube is significantly affected by the composition of the meal. Finally, transit time is influenced by such factors as psychological stress and even gender and reproductive status.​

It is unlikely that the only food consumed by JonBenét, on the 25th, was pineapple. We don't know how often, how much, nor how 'mixed' her diet was Christmas Day. Assuming JonBenét had eaten foods other than pineapple, periodically, on the 25th then we can rely somewhat on the averages listed from the same source, below:
50% of stomach contents emptied---2.5 to 3 hours
Total emptying of the stomach---4 to 5 hours
50% emptying of the small intestine---2.5 to 3 hours
Transit through the colon ---30 to 40 hours.​
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/transit.html

I've determined it to be an impossibility based on my reading about pineapple and fruit substances in particular.

Two years ago, I weighed 40 pounds more than I do now. I did a whole lot of reading on what foods contribute to weight gain and what helps a person lose weight. Pineapple is one of the best fruits to eat when losing weight, because of its ability, through the bromelain enzyme, to speed up the digestion process. Pineapple does not stick around in the stomach for hours.

The substance in her intestines was determined to be pineapple. There was pineapple on the dining room table. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this was that she ate the pineapple on the table after they returned home. Due to the digestive time of pineapple, it could not have been consumed before the family left the house, because they left the house too early in the day AND she ate other foods at the White's, other foods which were not in her system behind the pineapple.

You can link me again to that page that relies on averages, but it won't change the fact that pineapple is not going to digest at the same rate as, say, a heavy protein like red meat. That link provides average digestion time of all foods.
 
:twocents:

What I always find so ironic with regard to these discussions is that EVERYONE brings some sort of bias to the table. EVERYONE.

It could be a bias regarding how they feel the Rs should have behaved, or it might be an inability to believe that good people, with no outward signs of dysfunction could be capable of harming their child. It could even be based on an instinctive distrust of law enforcement.

Either way to deny it is disingenuous, and to continually remark that a particular bias is somehow more "right" than another, or that it's based on dislike does nothing to further the discussion.

Speaking for myself, I for years believed the Rs were innocent. It wasn't until I delved into the case, and studied the evidence that I came to the conclusions I have. It's getting pretty tiresome to be told that opinion is based on nothing more than dislike of the Ramsey family.

:seeya:
 
I agree bettybaby. like I said, I probably am biased to how they reacted because I am a parent myself and my parenting style differs from Chewy. I think the differences in how we parent our own children automatically add a bias to how we perceive the case. I don't like to think a parent would be capable of such an act towards their own child, but unfortunately it happens everyday.
 
Obviously as parents we'd have two different reactions to the situation. The difference for me is that I wouldn't be sitting there telling you that my way of doing it is legit and your way is wrong. I'd accept that we'd have different reactions.

SBM

I agree. I think this is an unbiased and open minded view of how people react differently to a give situation. Especially a traumatic one.

JMO.
 
You're asking me to quote the research I've consulted that contradicts your argument, quoted & BBM below?
I'm not sure how you've determined this to be an impossibility. It is possible, it is plausible, and research indicates such; from the link @ Colorado State:
How long does food stay in my stomach? How long is it before a meal reaches the large intestine? The answer to such commonly-asked questions is not necessarily simple.

First, there is considerable normal variability among healthy people and animals in transit times through different sections of the gatrointestinal tract. Second, the time required for material to move through the digestive tube is significantly affected by the composition of the meal. Finally, transit time is influenced by such factors as psychological stress and even gender and reproductive status.​
It is unlikely that the only food consumed by JonBenét, on the 25th, was pineapple. We don't know how often, how much, nor how 'mixed' her diet was Christmas Day. Assuming JonBenét had eaten foods other than pineapple, periodically, on the 25th then we can rely somewhat on the averages listed from the same source, below:
50% of stomach contents emptied---2.5 to 3 hours
Total emptying of the stomach---4 to 5 hours
50% emptying of the small intestine---2.5 to 3 hours
Transit through the colon ---30 to 40 hours.​
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/transit.html
Greetings, Mama. A few points about your reference...

The last two time periods are irrelevant to the discussion because they are related to the process after food has emptied from the small intestine. The pineapple was found in the duodenum. The first two time periods are going to depend largely on the amount of food consumed and what it consisted of. This is the problem with using average time periods. If the pineapple was consumed by itself in a period of time well after any other foods, it would take less time to pass because it would be the only thing in the stomach being processed. If, OTOH, it was consumed within at short time frame along with other foods (cracked crab, cake, candy, whatever) it would be mixed in with those other foods in the stomach. The stomach doesn’t separate each food type from one another and process them individually. It would all be processed closely together, and the mass of ingested and mixed food would be passed on to the small intestine in smaller amounts. The foods with higher fiber content (pineapple, for instance) would take no longer to pass through the stomach than other foods, but they will be less digested than the other foods. This is why some foods might be mixed together and not necessarily passed in the same order as consumption.

The above referenced article also says (and this is important on either side of the argument):
Studies of gastrointestinal transit have clearly demonstrated two related phenomena important to understanding this process:
1. Substances do not move uniformly through the digestive system.
2. Materials do not leave segments of the digestive tube in the same order as they arrive.
In other words, a meal is typically a mixture of chemically and physically diverse materials, and some substances in this mixture show accelerated transit while others are retarded in their flow downstream.
What it does not say, but should be apparent, is that large amounts of ingested food will take longer to process completely. With lesser amounts consumed, the process will be much quicker. Every mouthful of food swallowed is called a bolus. In the stomach, each bolus begins the digestion process and (depending on its content) will be effected more or less by the chemicals and enzymes in the stomach. Once it passes out of the stomach into the small intestine, it is called chyme (the semifluid mass of partly digested food expelled by the stomach into the duodenum). From Wikipedia:
“It results from the mechanical and chemical breakdown of a bolus (a mass of food that has been chewed to the point of swallowing) and consists of partially digested food, water, hydrochloric acid, and various digestive enzymes. Chyme slowly passes through the pyloric sphincter and into the duodenum, where the extraction of nutrients begins. Depending on the quantity and contents of the meal, the stomach will digest the food into chyme in anywhere between 40 minutes to a few hours.”
(The duodenum is simply the first section of the small intestine. It’s also known, and referred to in JonBenet’s AR, as the “proximal portion of the small intestine.” Its name comes from the Latin for “12 finger widths” -- the physician’s reference to its length.)
250px-Tractus_intestinalis_duodenum.svg.png


While it is true to state as a generality that foods can take up to a certain length of time to process, taken into consideration should be the total amount of food being processed for a more accurate time estimate. With little else found in JonBenet’s upper digestive tract, it is unrealistic to assume it could have been consumed on the upper limits of digestive time periods. Therefore, it was most likely consumed within only a couple of hours of her death when the digestive process ceased.



Lagniappe:

If it is helpful to know exactly how digestive tract content is examined in an autopsy, the following describes the process (copied from A Text-book of Legal Medicine and Toxicology, by Walter Stanley Haines, and Frederick Peterson):
The stomach and duodenum may be examined in situ by making an incision with the enterotome, or by continuing the incision eventually already made into the duodenum in examining the patency of the bile-ducts, from the pylorus along in the anterior wall, a little below and parallel with the lesser curvature and out through the part of the esophagus that still remains. Care should be taken to empty the stomach before the incision becomes so large that the contents cannot be retained by holding up the margins of the opening. Simultaneously the duodenum, or that part not already exposed, may be examined by cutting it open with the enterotome, the hepatic flexure of the colon, and the transverse colon being first loosened and turned downward.

In the majority of medicolegal cases, and especially when poisoning is not definitely excluded from the start, the stomach and duodenum are to be removed unopened from the body. A ligature is placed around the lower end of the esophagus, the diaphragm being divided so as to expose this part of the esophagus freely, and then the attachments along the lesser and greater curvatures are divided, the duodenum is dissected loose, and a double ligature placed securely at its lower end, between which it is then cut across. After emptying the contents into a suitable jar, the organs may be incised as above and the mucous membrane examined.
Probably more than anyone wanted to know, but we may as well put it out there so we understand what was done to look at the contents. There’s a lot more about the autopsy process that I’m sure no one would want to hear about.
 
Can anyone think of a case where the parents acted "differently" from what you'd expect and it turned out they were innocent? Besides Casey Anthony. Maybe I should say ...and it was determined that somebody else killed their child?
 

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