Blue Bottle 01
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Read my signature.
Patsy Ramsey
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noneareworthy
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What do you think about in the panic to create an intruder pr breaks the basement window....jr thinks that is ridiculous and not a logical point of entry so he makes up the story about forgetting the key and breaking in last summer? Could explain that supposedly nobody bothered to fix it even though kids are down there playing and nobody ever noticed it in six months.
I don't know where this bowl of pineapple came from. I can't recall putting that there.
Not sure why this direct statement, and other indirect statements, are misunderstood. There is no coulda woulda shoulda here...
Anti-K
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When Mrs Ramsey is told that “There were the remains of pineapple in JonBenet's system.” She replies, “I had heard that, yeah.”
2 TOM HANEY: This is not a shock to you?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it is not. No.
It was not a shock because Mrs Ramsey knew that there was pineapple in the house and that Jonbenet sometimes at ate it. Mrs Ramsey never denies purchasing pineapple, or having pineapple in the house. She denies putting pineapple in the bowl.
22 TOM HANEY: Just still talking about the bowl
23 itself and the pineapple, and there is probably no way
24 to determine from the photograph whether this was fresh
25 or canned. Do you have either or both in stock at the
0476
1 house there, did you?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Usually I would buy those -- I
3 bought pineapple, it was fresh pineapple that had been
4 peeled or whatever they do to it, and core it and cut
5 it up a little bit, or some that had been fresh that
6 was sealed there in the produce area.
7 TOM HANEY: What store did you buy this from?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Safeway is usually where I buy
9 it from.
10 TOM HANEY: It is the fresh pineapple that
11 they do all the work for you?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.
13 TOM HANEY: Did you have bags or however it
14 came?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. It usually went
16 bad pretty quick, so it didn't -- you know, I didn't
17 keep it around laying around very long. You know what
18 I mean?
19 TOM HANEY: So people ate it fairly regularly
20 or consistently?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I didn't buy it terribly
22 often. But when I did, I bought usually bought that
23 fresh and serve it out in little portions.
24 This looks weird to me, a bowl with a huge
25 spoon like that with pineapple in it.
The pineapple is not in question. What is in question is who put the pineapple in the bowl.
...
AK
DeDee
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Your opinion, Anti-K, is that it wasn't a shock or surprise to PR because she knew there was pineapple in the house which is certainly a reasonable conclusion. However, prior to PR answering the questions about the pineapple, it was determined, by Patsy, that she already was aware of the intense media's coverage surrounding who fed JonBenét the "pineapple snack". And as we all know, she continued denying participation in the pineapple set-up.
DeDee
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Great RDI argument, Frigga. We know there never was a kidnapping so there never was a need for a Ransom Book, as another poster referred to the RN. Colorful imagery in the RN is meant to terrify such as the word "beheaded" and the phrase "killing won't be easy". Please allow me to extend a PDI argument on PRs idea of ransom.
"At this time we have your daughter in our posession. She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter." That's the fourth sentence of the RN or the last sentence of the 1st paragraph. As posted above, the Rs did not follow the instructions to the letter.
The meaning of ransom from Frigga's above quoted post #6 is pertinent, too, but for now:
Redeem: : to make (something that is bad, unpleasant, etc.) better or more acceptable
Redeem oneself:
1.(idiomatic) to resolve, or make up for, one's previous folly. Folly = Foolish
Folly = 2.Thoughtless action resulting in tragic consequence. Especially for otg, Folly Etymology From Old French folie (madness), from the adjective fol (mad, insane).
Redeem (Transitive verb) Choose as many as applies:
1. To recover ownership of something by buying it back.
2.To liberate by payment of a ransom.
3.To set free by force.
4.To save, rescue
5.To clear, release from debt or blame
6.To expiate, atone (for ...)
7. (SBM)
8.To save from a state of sin (and from its consequences).
9. -12. snipped by me
Sources: wikitionary
"ran'-sum - the noun occurs in the English Bible 12 times"
"It is also clear in the typical teaching that sacrifice and ransom were closely related."
Thus begins the theory of atonement. In Christian theology, atonement describes how human beings can be reconciled to God. From The Christian Theory of Atonement:
"The real outcome to atonement is reconciliation. It is more than a restoration of a relationship. It is the restoration of a divine relationship with the consequence of eternal life for ones soul (Rom 5:10; 11:15). And if there is a true and genuine reconciliation of one with God, true and genuine reconciliation between human beings can occur (Eph 2:16). The atonement of Jesus Christ is so complete that Believers are absolutely reconciled with God, and He gives former offenders the privilege of representing Him (2 Cor 5:18-20)."
* Ephesians 5:2: "And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour." KJV. 9 The reference to a sweet smelling savor is seen throughout the Hebrew Scriptures in reference to animal sacrifices in the Temple being cooked at the altar, with the fragrance wafting upwards towards Heaven where God was seated on his throne. The ancient Hebrews believed that Heaven was only a few hundred feet above the earth."
"The atonement of Jesus Christ is so complete that Believers are absolutely reconciled with God, and He gives former offenders the privilege of representing Him (2 Cor 5:18-20).
Patsy said on national tv, iirc, that JonBenét was "a spiritual child". She wrote that JonBenét enjoyed lighting candles at church during prayer because the rising smoke reminded her that prayers went to heaven. In the next section, besides the freedom from obligation, recall PR referencing PWs Christmas tree as being decorated with silver.
"In the Old Testament, this concept of redemption was applied to property (Lev 25:23-34; Ruth 4:1-12), animals (Ex 34:19-20), individuals (Lev 25:35-55) and the nation of Israel (Deut 15:15), and in most cases, freedom from obligation, bondage or danger was secured by the payment of a price, ransom, or bribe."
"The word "silver" in Hebrew is often translated as "money", and this first collection of atonement silver was used in the sockets of the tabernacle boards. Some scholars have noted the imagery of the tabernacle being built upon the foundation of atonement."
Evidence may go toward a corrupted state of mind....
http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/ransom/
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_atone7.htm
http://helpmewithbiblestudy.org/2JesusChrist/AtonementRansomRedemption.aspx
http://helpmewithbiblestudy.org/9system_salvation/atone8.aspx
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/redeem
* OT note: font colors are now numbered and not named
Meara
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While reading about the O.J. Simpson trial lately I came across interesting information about types of killers described by Dr. Bernard Yudowitz, a forensic psychiatrist hired by the defense team to evaluate Simpson. This is how Lawrence Schiller summarizes four of the types in his book, American Tragedy.
This last type made me think of Patsy.
Schiller elaborates:
This sort of thing could generate a lot of "I don't remember."
- spontaneous killers who react to circumstances (while committing another crime, e.g.), accounting for ~80% of homicides
- psychopaths ("cold" killers, devoid of empathy)
- ordinary people who kill in a moment of passion and resign themselves to the consequences
- atypical killers (< 1% of those who commit murder).
This last type made me think of Patsy.
Schiller elaborates:
In these cases, circumstances trigger an out-of-chracter response in a normal person. The tragedy happens in a flash. Until the actual moment, the killer assumes himself incapable of murder. Ever. Then, for reasons the murderer himself never understands, he kills.
Once the victim is dead, the situation is so horrifying to the killer, so inconsistent with his entire personality and history, that he refuses - unconsciously - to admit it occured.
The killer enters a deep state of denial. In reality he has done something antithetical to his personality and his values. This could not happen, says the unconscious. Ergo, it did not happen.
.....these killers are so horrified by their act that they meticulously clean up evidence of the crime.....They want nothing around to trigger memories of what they have done. Not because they are trying to evade the police; such consequences never enter their minds. They simply cannot bear any reminder of the evil they believe they could not possibly have committed.
In this trancelike state they sometimes destroyed [or disposed of] evidence so effectively they left police no trail to follow.
Once the victim is dead, the situation is so horrifying to the killer, so inconsistent with his entire personality and history, that he refuses - unconsciously - to admit it occured.
The killer enters a deep state of denial. In reality he has done something antithetical to his personality and his values. This could not happen, says the unconscious. Ergo, it did not happen.
.....these killers are so horrified by their act that they meticulously clean up evidence of the crime.....They want nothing around to trigger memories of what they have done. Not because they are trying to evade the police; such consequences never enter their minds. They simply cannot bear any reminder of the evil they believe they could not possibly have committed.
In this trancelike state they sometimes destroyed [or disposed of] evidence so effectively they left police no trail to follow.
This sort of thing could generate a lot of "I don't remember."
In your opinion.
Anti-K
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Im not sure about what youre saying. Yes, Mrs Ramsey denied the so-called setup despite having already heard that Jonbenet had eaten pineapple. I think Mrs Ramsey is being honest here and she simply does not remember or does not know who put the pineapple in the bowl.
I also think that if Mrs Ramsey had been shocked when she first learned about the pineapple, through the media, or however, that she would have expressed that when asked about it.
There were the remains of pineapple in JonBenet's system.
I had heard that, yeah.
This is not a shock to you?
Yes, it was a shock.
...
AK
Anti-K
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Meara,
the type of killer described by Schiller, as quoted by you, could describe a non-Ramsey killer, too; and, this would explain several aspects of the crime. It could also explain why, for example, this killer has not – as far as we know – killed again.
...
AK
lawstudent
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This reads strangely to me. "Little portions" - would this mean maybe for like a party or something? She buys it rarely and then would take parts of it out for drink garnish or fruit salad give it to the kids for a snack for a few days before it went bad? Obviously, it would go bad quickly, so it seems she bought it as a 'special' and not regular thing, since she wasn't someone who enjoyed preparing a bunch of varied healthy dishes - those are the type of people who keep fresh fruits and vegetables on hand 24/7. It just seems unclear why she bought it - you'd think she'd give a bit more of an explanation. My mom will occasionally buy a fresh fruit on sale and whoever wants some of it will have some for a few days before it goes bad. It could just be something like that. Then ''Safeway is where I usually buy it" - not "I bought it at Safeway last week..." or something. She doesn't seem to directly answer anything about a recent purchase of pineapple, and it couldn't have been that long ago if it was fresh. It's all "Usually I would keep it sealed...it didn't stay good that long..." it sounds like she's talking about something she did not do recently or think much about. You'd think she'd say "well I'd had it a few days so it was sealed and I was going to throw it out in the next few days so i didn't bother with a bag". It's all very past-oriented. "I don't recall buying pineapple" could mean not remembering (although I find it a little weird you don't remember a recently purchased grocery item that doesn't seem to be a staple), but in context, it definitely seems like she's saying "I didn't buy pineapple" and is confused that it is in her house in that set up. I mean, commenting on the set up like that is notable to me. I know that certain people have very specific ways of feeding their kids and would notice that something was off, but if she's commenting on it truthfully, she knows that's not how people in her house eat pineapple and that's not how she would have done it. So either she at this point would either be really confused and kind of freaked out - either checking with John to see if he'd fed her that way or assuming that the intruder did it for god knows what reason. Or she's distancing herself. It doesn't seem like some insane way to eat pineapple, so I could see John responding to her request for it like that, but obviously that wasn't established. Possible she got it herself, but I don't know. It just seems weird to me. If Pasty is particular enough to notice the set up like that, JonBenet probably wasn't the type of child to get up in the middle of the night and set it all up. Patsy probably was the type who would yell about using the 'wrong' bowl etc. I'm familiar with parents who care about 'set ups' - they just have a real logic to it. I'm sure some people who read this say "what the heck is she talking about? It is pineapple in a bowl! Anyone could eat that!"
Anti-K
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I think the pineapple in the bowl is mysterious to her. And, she talks about it [purchasing pineapple] as if it were in the past, as if it were something she did not do recently because she was talking about something that was in the past, something that she had not done recently.
Mrs Ramsey does not say, "I don't recall buying pineapple." So, theres nothing weird about her not remembering the purchase
.
If Mrs Ramsey wanted LE to think that she didnt buy pineapple than why didnt she simply say that she didnt buy it? If she didnt buy it, than the bowl becomes moot. It doesnt matter what bowl its in she didnt buy it. But, the fuss is all about the bowl or, as some would call it, the setup.
For me it all comes down to the fact that Mrs Ramsey had plenty of opportunity to say that she did not recall, or simply did not have pineapple in the house, and, she never expresses surprise or shock upon learning that there was pineapple in the house. She never wonders, where did the pineapple come from? No, its all about, who put it in that bowl.
...
AK
lawstudent
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You make a good point, but I just think it's weird that someone who would be very shocked by the bowl also wouldn't remember buying pineapple around Christmastime - considering it seems like she had a particular way of serving it and it wasn't just a normal snack she kept around like a Dole pineapple cup. Even if she did not remember exact details of the purchase, which would be reasonable, saying "I usually bought it at Safeway" is kind of weird.
Wouldn't she say "I bought it at Safeway"? Even if she didn't remember the exact date or transaction, she should remember that she bought pineapple at some time around then and if she had deviated from the normal pattern. It's not like a case of water that you could grab on any shopping trip to any grocery or convenience store and not recall when that might have been purchased. It would have been within days of Christmas, a not regular purchase, and she liked it packaged in a certain way. At least a "I was doing most of my shopping at Safeway before Christmas and it was on one of those trips." I don't know; it strikes me as odd.
I don't think she was trying to prove that she didn't buy it, because, as you said, she would have just said no. But she kind of seems nervous about the topic and trying to distance herself. Saying she didn't buy it then leads to a very weird alternative. I think saying "no, there was no such pineapple in my house at that time, so clearly someone brought it into my house and put it in this bowl!" would be pushing it - it seems like kind of a bizarre scenario, and maybe she thought they had receipts from the trip or something and was trying to see where they were going. Wavering a bit may have seemed safer - "oh I don't remember any, that's kind of weird, but I've had it in the house before so maybe we had some - but not in a bowl like that - how strange." Still a silly redirect, but I don't know. She called it a setup first, right, not people on this board?
The bowl obviously really caught her eye - and if she didn't think someone in her house would do that, it would certainly be something to look into and support the intruder story. But why not then say "yes, we had pineapple, but I give it to her in small portions and she eats it in X way, and I know I didn't give it to her that night and we never use that bowl, so something is wrong with this set up. Maybe she got up in the middle of the night and ran into someone who offered her a snack to lure her downstairs and that's why we never heard any struggle. Maybe it was someone she trusted - like X, Y, or Z." I just don't understand how the bowl can be so shocking to her but then she doesn't mention how JB would normally eat it or who could have set it up like that.
Wouldn't she say "I bought it at Safeway"? Even if she didn't remember the exact date or transaction, she should remember that she bought pineapple at some time around then and if she had deviated from the normal pattern. It's not like a case of water that you could grab on any shopping trip to any grocery or convenience store and not recall when that might have been purchased. It would have been within days of Christmas, a not regular purchase, and she liked it packaged in a certain way. At least a "I was doing most of my shopping at Safeway before Christmas and it was on one of those trips." I don't know; it strikes me as odd.
I don't think she was trying to prove that she didn't buy it, because, as you said, she would have just said no. But she kind of seems nervous about the topic and trying to distance herself. Saying she didn't buy it then leads to a very weird alternative. I think saying "no, there was no such pineapple in my house at that time, so clearly someone brought it into my house and put it in this bowl!" would be pushing it - it seems like kind of a bizarre scenario, and maybe she thought they had receipts from the trip or something and was trying to see where they were going. Wavering a bit may have seemed safer - "oh I don't remember any, that's kind of weird, but I've had it in the house before so maybe we had some - but not in a bowl like that - how strange." Still a silly redirect, but I don't know. She called it a setup first, right, not people on this board?
The bowl obviously really caught her eye - and if she didn't think someone in her house would do that, it would certainly be something to look into and support the intruder story. But why not then say "yes, we had pineapple, but I give it to her in small portions and she eats it in X way, and I know I didn't give it to her that night and we never use that bowl, so something is wrong with this set up. Maybe she got up in the middle of the night and ran into someone who offered her a snack to lure her downstairs and that's why we never heard any struggle. Maybe it was someone she trusted - like X, Y, or Z." I just don't understand how the bowl can be so shocking to her but then she doesn't mention how JB would normally eat it or who could have set it up like that.
DeDee
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RBBM
My apologies for not being more clear. Portions of the AR were released in July '97 and Sept. 8, 1997. The media sensationalized the pineapple found in JB because the family claimed she was asleep and never woke up to be fed. Therefore, PR was well-aware of the bugaboo of the pineapple feeding since it pointed to death occurring around 12:30.
Patsy's Interview:
0478 snip
24 TOM HANEY: There were the remains of
25 pineapple in JonBenet's system.
0479
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I had heard that, yeah.
2 TOM HANEY: This is not a shock to you?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it is not. No.
4 TOM HANEY: Okay.
0482
snip
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I just know that I heard
6 somewhere there was pineapple in her stomach.
On the pineapple set up, you give Patsy 3 way-out options: 1) Telling the truth 2) Simply does not remember 3) Does not know who did it
Or Patsy could be 1) Telling a lie because she is sticking to the JB going straight to bed version. 2) That she definitely remembers and could be setting up her defense. 3) Does know who did it because she did it. It is her set-up. One thing that always stuck out to me about the spoon was that is was "Patsy's good silver". This special occasion serving spoon did not come from the ordinary cereal spoon drawer. Special white pedestal serving bowl. Special silver spoon. A final, a special, a last peaceful meal of happiness, if you will.
June 1998 John's Interview
0205
23 LOU SMIT: Okay. I think that's kind of a
24 chronological that kind of gets up to the hearing.
25 Now I would like to go over the specifics. And
0206
1 this here is academic questions about heating [eating] . And
2 you brought up this that you heard something about
3 pineapple. Now what have you heard about
4 pineapple?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we were asked if JonBenet
6 had eaten any pineapple, because apparently it was
7 found in her system. I don't know if the police
8 asked us that or we saw it on television or the
9 question came up. I don't remember her eating
10 pineapple
0517
1 LOU SMIT: And even the
2 pineapple.
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, is that
4 what was in the bowl?
5 LOU SMIT: Yeah. And we, and
6 we haven't talked about this too much, but
7 have you heard anything about pineapple in
8 regards to your daughter?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Just that it was
10 a question mark that there was either was or
11 could have been pineapple in her system.
12 LOU SMIT: And where did you
13 hear that?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it's been on the
15 tabloids, been on television; I think these
16 fellows asked me about it. It started to come
17 up as a question, at least in the media.
Aug 13, 1997 AR: "The yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple."
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon124.htm
Moo and all that jazz
http://articles.latimes.com/1997/aug/14/news/mn-22325
http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/07/15-2.html
acandyrose
My apologies for not being more clear. Portions of the AR were released in July '97 and Sept. 8, 1997. The media sensationalized the pineapple found in JB because the family claimed she was asleep and never woke up to be fed. Therefore, PR was well-aware of the bugaboo of the pineapple feeding since it pointed to death occurring around 12:30.
Patsy's Interview:
0478 snip
24 TOM HANEY: There were the remains of
25 pineapple in JonBenet's system.
0479
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I had heard that, yeah.
2 TOM HANEY: This is not a shock to you?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it is not. No.
4 TOM HANEY: Okay.
0482
snip
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I just know that I heard
6 somewhere there was pineapple in her stomach.
On the pineapple set up, you give Patsy 3 way-out options: 1) Telling the truth 2) Simply does not remember 3) Does not know who did it
Or Patsy could be 1) Telling a lie because she is sticking to the JB going straight to bed version. 2) That she definitely remembers and could be setting up her defense. 3) Does know who did it because she did it. It is her set-up. One thing that always stuck out to me about the spoon was that is was "Patsy's good silver". This special occasion serving spoon did not come from the ordinary cereal spoon drawer. Special white pedestal serving bowl. Special silver spoon. A final, a special, a last peaceful meal of happiness, if you will.
June 1998 John's Interview
0205
23 LOU SMIT: Okay. I think that's kind of a
24 chronological that kind of gets up to the hearing.
25 Now I would like to go over the specifics. And
0206
1 this here is academic questions about heating [eating] . And
2 you brought up this that you heard something about
3 pineapple. Now what have you heard about
4 pineapple?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we were asked if JonBenet
6 had eaten any pineapple, because apparently it was
7 found in her system. I don't know if the police
8 asked us that or we saw it on television or the
9 question came up. I don't remember her eating
10 pineapple
0517
1 LOU SMIT: And even the
2 pineapple.
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, is that
4 what was in the bowl?
5 LOU SMIT: Yeah. And we, and
6 we haven't talked about this too much, but
7 have you heard anything about pineapple in
8 regards to your daughter?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Just that it was
10 a question mark that there was either was or
11 could have been pineapple in her system.
12 LOU SMIT: And where did you
13 hear that?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it's been on the
15 tabloids, been on television; I think these
16 fellows asked me about it. It started to come
17 up as a question, at least in the media.
Aug 13, 1997 AR: "The yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple."
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon124.htm
Moo and all that jazz
http://articles.latimes.com/1997/aug/14/news/mn-22325
http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/07/15-2.html
acandyrose
Meara
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I'm just not seeing it, AK. If the killer was a guest in the house, then, yes, a scenario like the one described by Schiller might possibly have happened. But, who could that person be, and why would the Ramseys cover for him/her?
If the non-Ramsey killer wasn't a guest, then we have an intruder, premeditation, breaking and entering, and so on - and we're no longer talking about a person or event that match the criteria.
Is there some other scenario you have in mind that I'm missing? :findinglink:
The evidence of the ransom letter overwhelmingly points to Patsy as the writer (no need to rehash here). Yet, the D.A.'s apology letter seemed to exonerate her (albeit not legally) because of the unknown DNA on the oversize panties. My apologies if this has been covered elsewhere in the forum. Also, if this is not the correct place to ask these questions please direct me to the proper thread. Does anyone know how large the sample was on the panties and where it was located? Was it blood? Weren't the oversize panties a red herring anyway?
Anti-K
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But, Mrs Ramsey never says that she did not remember buying the pineapple. You seem to be projecting something that didnt happen, and then youre claiming to find that thing that didnt happen to be weird.
...
AK
Anti-K
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Yes, I know Mrs Ramsey was aware of the pineapple before the 98 interview. She doesnt appear to have been surprised by the news, not even when she first heard it.
Knowing about the pineapple in advance should have given her the opportunity to make up a story, if she felt that one was necessary; for instance: I put pineapple in the bowl before we went to the Whites. I dont know if anybody ate any of it. Jonbenet was sleeping when we got home, but maybe she woke up in the middle of the night and had some of it. Or, whatever.
Claiming that she put the pineapple in the bowl during the day, and that it was left out on the table would have been a very simple story to tell, and could have stopped a mystery dead in its tracks.
...
AK
Anti-K
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Lanning (retired-FBI) describes one offender type as a “molester who happens to kill,” and another as a “killer who happens to molest.” I think that in this case we are likely dealing with the latter, but the atypical killer as described by Schiller could fit the former. A molester who did not intend to, but happened to, kill. But, once the deed is done, “the situation is so horrifying to the killer,” etc.
Or, it could apply to a killer who planned to kill but for whom the reality was overwhelming and not as expected or anticipated.
...
AK