Press Release fo JonBenet Ramsey Show/Guest List/It's Good!!

[DeeDee249]

Ah, pineapple: the evidence that put the lie to JonBenet being asleep when the Ramseys brought her home and put her to bed without waking her up.

Good points about Burke being there when she ate the pineapple; his fingerprints were on the tea glass and bowl of pineapple, as you know.

I'm afraid Burke may forever have blocked out what he knows, though. I've seen people do that when they simply don't want to believe what they know to be true. For a child, time is also a helper in deep forgetting.

The fact that Burke refused to be interviewed by LE last year to help with the investigation pretty much tells me he wants to keep it that way.

You can bet BR's father and their lawyers don't want him talking either. One thing about kids and time- children tend to remember events of the past the way they are TOLD they happened rather than the way they really happen. Not only horrible things like this, but often happy events too. If you hear something often enough over time, you come to accept that as fact. And so does your memory, storing the information the way it has been "practiced" in the brain.

 

[UKGuy]

Listening to Dr. Wecht was fascinating, but there were still some things I took issue with. For one, one of the panelists mentioned as fact that JB had been jabbed in the vagina with the paintbrush. Wecht never commented on that at all, and when the birefringent material was said to be talc, no mention at all of the cellulose that was said to be found in the vagina at the autopsy. I have an immense respect for ST, though I do not agree with everything he says, and it was he who mentioned the cellulose in his book. Wecht made no mention of the cellulose or paintbrush at all. Nor did anyone there say that it was not true.
So... was the paintbrush inserted or not? Was is still inside her at the autopsy or not? If so, it wouldn't surprise me to keep that hidden from the public, as one thing that only a perp would know, though it has been so much discussed online that a kook like Karr could say it, not knowing himself if it was the truth, and had a 50-50 chance of being right.
Wecht also mentioned briefly about JB struggling, possibly related to the multiple red marks around her neck. To me, the multiple marks look like the cord has simply been wound around multiple times. If she had struggled, especially during the sexual penetration, there would be more evidence of internal scratching or bruising, as she moved around during the episode.

DeeDee249,
Good points about the cellulose. I never mentioned it since I thought it trivial, but ST in his book actually refers to a splinter which is slightly more descriptive than cellulose or birefringement material as cited in the autopsy.

Wecht has had access to the full autopsy report including photographs we have never seen. He will be under a disclaimer not to reveal certain autopsy material, particularly anything that was redacted.

Since Coroner Meyer chose to refer to ST's splinter as birefringement material then my money is on the missing piece of the paintbrush being found inside JonBenet.

There is the possibility of a plurality of evidence e.g. Talcum Powder and the missing piece of the paintbrush. Since one is being reported and the other has been redacted?

Nearly everything in the wine-cellar is staging its designed to deflect you away from whatever happened. Possibly the only thing not fabricated was JonBenet's white gap top.

Someone was molesting JonBenet upstairs, possibly in her bedroom or another. Prima facie this person lost it, violently beat JonBenet, remember all those marks on her body, and choked her. For me the difficult thing to decide is whether JonBenet's death was accidental or intentional?

So JonBenet may have been cleaned up and staged to appear as the victim of a bedroom assault. So why was this not accepted what changed that made it neccessary to relocate JonBenet down into the basement?

And it looks as if it was John who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's his fibers are on the underwear, and we know indirectly that Patsy was ignorant that the remaining size-12's were not in JonBenet's underwear drawer. Small points but enough to implicate John Ramsey as the person who wished to normalise JonBenet's clothing.

What this does not tell us is who was molesting JonBenet.



.

 

[UKGuy]

Ah, pineapple: the evidence that put the lie to JonBenet being asleep when the Ramseys brought her home and put her to bed without waking her up.

Good points about Burke being there when she ate the pineapple; his fingerprints were on the tea glass and bowl of pineapple, as you know.

I'm afraid Burke may forever have blocked out what he knows, though. I've seen people do that when they simply don't want to believe what they know to be true. For a child, time is also a helper in deep forgetting.

The fact that Burke refused to be interviewed by LE last year to help with the investigation pretty much tells me he wants to keep it that way.

KoldKase,

The fact that Burke refused to be interviewed by LE last year to help with the investigation pretty much tells me he wants to keep it that way.

I know that there could be psychological issues regarding Burke's memory etc. But I reckon he knows Who Did It he is the only person who can confirm whether JonBenet was placed directly to bed, and when she ate the pineapple etc. John Ramsey says he was sound asleep.

Burke knows what the family line is on the timeline for that night but he knows, as we do, that its been made up. This will conflict with his memory, but I guess given the media interest, he will want it all to go away.

 

[freshwater]

I've often thought that DNA on the garotte cord would be the key to this case. Tying knots with gloves on is possible, but not likely. Not testing the cord for DNA by this point would be the very definition of gross incompetence. You rub your skin quite a bit on a piece of cord/rope/lace that you tie as you tighten a knot. There almost has to be DNA on it.

I wonder if the DNA on the cord has already been matched to someone but not publicly revealed. Perhaps someone who won't agree to a new interview and was too young at the time of the crime to be charged with anything today? Is that possible?

 

[KoldKase]

Okay, reading all your excellent points and discussion, this is squeezing my heart again.

That poor little girl. They dressed her up like a cheap showgirl, trained her to strut like a woman, then molested her and murdered her.

I don't care what the ef the laws are, how easily defense lawyers can slip child killers out of the cage they should live in the rest of their lives! This is just WRONG!

THERE IS NO JUSTICE FOR THIS TORTURED CHILD!

And damn every Ramsey who allows this to continue!​

 

[KoldKase]

You can bet BR's father and their lawyers don't want him talking either. One thing about kids and time- children tend to remember events of the past the way they are TOLD they happened rather than the way they really happen. Not only horrible things like this, but often happy events too. If you hear something often enough over time, you come to accept that as fact. And so does your memory, storing the information the way it has been "practiced" in the brain.

I think this is not only true, it's survival for a child. How can a little boy live through the real nightmares of his family, whether he had a part in it or not?

He can deliberately or subconsciously adopt an alternate reality. Whether that's actually blocking out a lot, or just forgetting as all children forget much of their childhood, and/or creating or accepting a fictional account of things, Burke may not remember and may not want to remember.

I do have some compassion for Burke. He, too, was just a child. I don't know how thoroughly awful his parents were before the murder, but what I've seen of them since are lies, deception, self-promotion, victimization of others freely and gleefully, and out and out corruption of the soul. There's nothing they wouldn't do to come out on top, it's obvious to me.

So Burke has learned from them: sssssssssh. Never tell the truth.

I don't know what this will all come to, but I have long had the feeling it's not over yet.

 

[KoldKase]

DeeDee249,
Good points about the cellulose. I never mentioned it since I thought it trivial, but ST in his book actually refers to a splinter which is slightly more descriptive than cellulose or birefringement material as cited in the autopsy.

Wecht has had access to the full autopsy report including photographs we have never seen. He will be under a disclaimer not to reveal certain autopsy material, particularly anything that was redacted.

Since Coroner Meyer chose to refer to ST's splinter as birefringement material then my money is on the missing piece of the paintbrush being found inside JonBenet.

There is the possibility of a plurality of evidence e.g. Talcum Powder and the missing piece of the paintbrush. Since one is being reported and the other has been redacted?

[snip]

.

I'm going to break this down because my mouse is in need of replacing and won't do things like highlight without me getting on my knees and begging it to.

This is interesting. I have long heard that Meyers redacted the autopsy, but as a public document released eventually under the FOIA, that isn't supposed to happen. How can Meyers bring up evidence from the autopsy in court if he chose to bury it by excluding it in the legal document?

Of course, I don't think Meyers thought this would go to court by the time he wrote the final autopsy. I have also long thought there was a reason it took Meyers 6 hours to get to the Ramsey home that day other than he was at another death scene as coroner. Then he stayed at the Ramsey home for maybe 15 minutes? What was going on at the other death scene that it took all afternoon: mass murder? And a child murder like this, no biggie, in and out?

I hate to sound like a conspiracy nut, but I've spent 15 years watching this case being twisted and FUBAR. It always goes back to what happened in the first hours, days, weeks, and months: someone was influencing the investigation before 911 was ever called, IMO. I'm not buying the BS we've been fed so long, where so many, for some coincidental, odd reason they use as an excuse, didn't do what they were supposed to do as professionals to aid in the murder investigation.

 

[KoldKase]

[snip]

Someone was molesting JonBenet upstairs, possibly in her bedroom or another. Prima facie this person lost it, violently beat JonBenet, remember all those marks on her body, and choked her. For me the difficult thing to decide is whether JonBenet's death was accidental or intentional?

So JonBenet may have been cleaned up and staged to appear as the victim of a bedroom assault. So why was this not accepted what changed that made it neccessary to relocate JonBenet down into the basement?

And it looks as if it was John who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's his fibers are on the underwear, and we know indirectly that Patsy was ignorant that the remaining size-12's were not in JonBenet's underwear drawer. Small points but enough to implicate John Ramsey as the person who wished to normalise JonBenet's clothing.

What this does not tell us is who was molesting JonBenet.



.

I think JonBenet died in the basement. If what Lou Smit said is true, that JB's urine was found in the basement on the carpet outside the cellar room, that was probably where she died, by the paint tray, on her stomach, as the urine stain on her long johns was in the front of the bottoms.

So to your question: what took the crime to the basement?

JB's blood on the pillowcase on her bed: from the head blow where bloody mucous drained from her nose, or from vaginal injuries where she was being molested? I'm going with the head blow because Haney asked Patsy if JonBenet had nose bleeds when he was asking her about the blood on the pillowcase in the '98 LE interview.

So for argument's sake, let's say there was a head blow struck in that second floor area, JB was on or was placed on her bed, with her pillow either already at the foot of the bed or it was then placed there under her head. Bloody mucous dripped on it; the Ramseys didn't notice.

Now I've recently written on another thread here why I believe Patsy Ramsey already knew JonBenet was being molested. I don't know how long she knew, since Pam Archuleta didn't give a timeline for the conversation she told a reporter about, where Patsy was concerned about JB flirting and being too friendly with "strangers." I don't believe "strangers" were the concern, because if Patsy thought for one second a stranger were molesting JonBenet, she'd have been at the BPD when the doors opened.

So once JB was unconscious from the deadly bludgeoning, why take her to the basement once she was unconscious on her bed? As was said by Wecht and Dawna on Tricia's excellent radio show, in taking her to the hospital no doubt the molestation would be found and the Ramseys would be answering some hard questions they obviously didn't want to answer.

Since Burke was a minor, he wouldn't have had legal consequences if he were found to be the abuser. Which makes me wonder if there were bigger fish who didn't want to go to prison, lose the family's considerable income source, etc....

I have to tell you, as a mother/grandmother, I've always wondered what a parent had to go through to be able to stick that paintbrush into that child. I'd have sooner stuck it through my heart. But someone did. Why? What was the point of that? Because that was why she was taken to the basement, IMO.

The paintbrush in all probability was used to cause injury to the vaginal vault and hymen. Then it was broken and the garrote "handle" was fashioned in the basement. The child was laid on her stomach and the noose knot was tied from behind.

Patsy had ribbons and various cords, etc., in that basement, we have seen from photos published many places. I have wondered if shoestrings might have been made of that kind of cord, because if you look at photos of the cords at autopsy, they have some indentions that look like they were caused by pressure from a knot, etc. Some think it was cord used on the back of a painting Patsy had in the basement. The point being, it could have easily come from their basement.

The child was killed in the basement, because she died from strangulation, not the head blow. So that's why she was taken to the basement--to have the prior molestation covered up and to end her life. IMO, of course.

Her genitals were wiped by something with dark threads--John Ramsey's shirt had fibers consistent; then redressed before she was turned over and strangled, when her bladder released at death, logic would dictate. Then she was laid on her blanket in the "tomb" of the cellar room, where Christmas presents were scattered about, and her bloody Barbie gown was left, too.

Was she wearing that Barbie gown when she was first attacked? Then during the redressing, did someone retrieve the long johns, frantically leaving the clothing drawers hanging open?

I've often wondered what was someone looking for in the bathroom of JAR, where the drawers were also left open. Scissors? Because the kitchen knife on the washing machine outside JB's bedroom is strange. Maybe it was retrieved when someone was looking for something to cut a cord. Burke's Swiss knife was found in the basement; conflicting reports say it was on a counter or near the body in the cellar room. I've also read it had glue that matched the duct tape on it, but I have no way to know what is true vs what is just wrong.

What I do take from this crime scene is that there was frantic activity going on around JB's bedroom; that she bled onto her pillowcase; that she was sexually assaulted and strangled in the basement by the paint tray, where she died; that her body was staged in the cellar room by a "caring" perp; that a ransom note was written to confuse and divert LE by someone who had no fear of discovery from sleeping family upstairs, on Patsy's pad, with Patsy's pen, with Patsy's handwriting, language, and style.

Have you ever read the story of the exec. secretary who worked at Access Graphics who claimed to have been told by JR's secretary that Patsy caught JR with JB and accidently hit JB when swinging at JR? The woman allegedly took a polygraph and passed, according to the polygraph examiner who told this story. There is supposed to be an affadavit where this is written up and signed by the woman. I don't know if there's any truth to this, of course, but it is an interesting explanation that has been tossed around for years.

So these are some thoughts on what you wrote which may or may not mean anything. Thanks for making me think about this again. It's the only way I can keep from forgetting everything in this case, it's been going on so long.

 

[Cracka*Jaxx]

So once JB was unconscious from the deadly bludgeoning, why take her to the basement once she was unconscious on her bed? As was said by Wecht and Dawna on Tricia's excellent radio show, in taking her to the hospital no doubt the molestation would be found and the Ramseys would be answering some hard questions they obviously didn't want to answer.

If the murder was planned ahead of time by JR, It would have been more organized. It seems like someone was scrambling around for something to use to kill her. The items were just handy.

That ransom note always seemed unbelievable to me. It was way too long and rambling. Who would have had time to compose it right there in the Ramsey house? And if it was done by someone other than a Ramsey, why would they write about a kidnapping when JB was already dead? What would be the point of that? Or did something go wrong during the kidnapping and she wound up dead, after the note was written

What I still don't understand is if molestation by JR had been going on for some time, why was this time different? Did JB decide to put up a struggle? Could she have banged her head against the headboard during a struggle? I'm sure the Ramsey's had good quality, wood furniture- solid enough to knock out a child. Or did JR slam her head in frustration because this time she was putting up a fight?

If JR was responsible, I still don't see the need to actually kill JB. I'm sure she went to doctors all the time, and during any of those visits it could have been found out that she was being molested.

I can see why JB would have been brought to the basement. No one would think to look there for either of them, whereas anyone could have gone by her bedroom. Whatever was going on it would be too risky to stay in the bedroom.

 

[KoldKase]

I've often thought that DNA on the garotte cord would be the key to this case. Tying knots with gloves on is possible, but not likely. Not testing the cord for DNA by this point would be the very definition of gross incompetence. You rub your skin quite a bit on a piece of cord/rope/lace that you tie as you tighten a knot. There almost has to be DNA on it.

I wonder if the DNA on the cord has already been matched to someone but not publicly revealed. Perhaps someone who won't agree to a new interview and was too young at the time of the crime to be charged with anything today? Is that possible?

I suspect Mary Lacy would accept no evidence that showed up against the Ramseys.

The BODE DNA tech who did the "touch" testing on the clothing said in a videotaped segment for TV, where she was in the lab demonstrating how she processed the clothing/DNA, that she discarded some DNA. She never said what DNA and she never said whose. Of course she wasn't asked because she was giving the reporter a dog-and-pony show for a news segment and the timer was running.

If the cord wasn't processed recently--or ever--for DNA (maybe at the same time as the "touch" DNA testing) then it's clear LE has no intention of ever solving this case.

But would we ever hear about it if DNA was found on the cord? Especially if it were a Ramsey's, when they've claimed all along the cord wasn't theirs and was brought in by the intruder? I'd bet the farm it would have been reported by Lacy if unsourced DNA were found on it. THE ENTIRE FARM.

 

[UKGuy]

I think JonBenet died in the basement. If what Lou Smit said is true, that JB's urine was found in the basement on the carpet outside the cellar room, that was probably where she died, by the paint tray, on her stomach, as the urine stain on her long johns was in the front of the bottoms.

So to your question: what took the crime to the basement?

JB's blood on the pillowcase on her bed: from the head blow where bloody mucous drained from her nose, or from vaginal injuries where she was being molested? I'm going with the head blow because Haney asked Patsy if JonBenet had nose bleeds when he was asking her about the blood on the pillowcase in the '98 LE interview.

So for argument's sake, let's say there was a head blow struck in that second floor area, JB was on or was placed on her bed, with her pillow either already at the foot of the bed or it was then placed there under her head. Bloody mucous dripped on it; the Ramseys didn't notice.

Now I've recently written on another thread here why I believe Patsy Ramsey already knew JonBenet was being molested. I don't know how long she knew, since Pam Archuleta didn't give a timeline for the conversation she told a reporter about, where Patsy was concerned about JB flirting and being too friendly with "strangers." I don't believe "strangers" were the concern, because if Patsy thought for one second a stranger were molesting JonBenet, she'd have been at the BPD when the doors opened.

So once JB was unconscious from the deadly bludgeoning, why take her to the basement once she was unconscious on her bed? As was said by Wecht and Dawna on Tricia's excellent radio show, in taking her to the hospital no doubt the molestation would be found and the Ramseys would be answering some hard questions they obviously didn't want to answer.

Since Burke was a minor, he wouldn't have had legal consequences if he were found to be the abuser. Which makes me wonder if there were bigger fish who didn't want to go to prison, lose the family's considerable income source, etc....

I have to tell you, as a mother/grandmother, I've always wondered what a parent had to go through to be able to stick that paintbrush into that child. I'd have sooner stuck it through my heart. But someone did. Why? What was the point of that? Because that was why she was taken to the basement, IMO.

The paintbrush in all probability was used to cause injury to the vaginal vault and hymen. Then it was broken and the garrote "handle" was fashioned in the basement. The child was laid on her stomach and the noose knot was tied from behind.

Patsy had ribbons and various cords, etc., in that basement, we have seen from photos published many places. I have wondered if shoestrings might have been made of that kind of cord, because if you look at photos of the cords at autopsy, they have some indentions that look like they were caused by pressure from a knot, etc. Some think it was cord used on the back of a painting Patsy had in the basement. The point being, it could have easily come from their basement.

The child was killed in the basement, because she died from strangulation, not the head blow. So that's why she was taken to the basement--to have the prior molestation covered up and to end her life. IMO, of course.

Her genitals were wiped by something with dark threads--John Ramsey's shirt had fibers consistent; then redressed before she was turned over and strangled, when her bladder released at death, logic would dictate. Then she was laid on her blanket in the "tomb" of the cellar room, where Christmas presents were scattered about, and her bloody Barbie gown was left, too.

Was she wearing that Barbie gown when she was first attacked? Then during the redressing, did someone retrieve the long johns, frantically leaving the clothing drawers hanging open?

I've often wondered what was someone looking for in the bathroom of JAR, where the drawers were also left open. Scissors? Because the kitchen knife on the washing machine outside JB's bedroom is strange. Maybe it was retrieved when someone was looking for something to cut a cord. Burke's Swiss knife was found in the basement; conflicting reports say it was on a counter or near the body in the cellar room. I've also read it had glue that matched the duct tape on it, but I have no way to know what is true vs what is just wrong.

What I do take from this crime scene is that there was frantic activity going on around JB's bedroom; that she bled onto her pillowcase; that she was sexually assaulted and strangled in the basement by the paint tray, where she died; that her body was staged in the cellar room by a "caring" perp; that a ransom note was written to confuse and divert LE by someone who had no fear of discovery from sleeping family upstairs, on Patsy's pad, with Patsy's pen, with Patsy's handwriting, language, and style.

Have you ever read the story of the exec. secretary who worked at Access Graphics who claimed to have been told by JR's secretary that Patsy caught JR with JB and accidently hit JB when swinging at JR? The woman allegedly took a polygraph and passed, according to the polygraph examiner who told this story. There is supposed to be an affadavit where this is written up and signed by the woman. I don't know if there's any truth to this, of course, but it is an interesting explanation that has been tossed around for years.

So these are some thoughts on what you wrote which may or may not mean anything. Thanks for making me think about this again. It's the only way I can keep from forgetting everything in this case, it's been going on so long.

KoldKase,

The child was killed in the basement, because she died from strangulation, not the head blow. So that's why she was taken to the basement--to have the prior molestation covered up and to end her life. IMO, of course.

Yes I agree the prior molestation was being hidden, this makes her death a sexually motivated homicide.

Her genitals were wiped by something with dark threads--John Ramsey's shirt had fibers consistent; then redressed before she was turned over and strangled, when her bladder released at death, logic would dictate. Then she was laid on her blanket in the "tomb" of the cellar room, where Christmas presents were scattered about, and her bloody Barbie gown was left, too.

John Ramsey's fingerprints are all over the wine-cellar staging, right down to him finding the body.

Was she wearing that Barbie gown when she was first attacked? Then during the redressing, did someone retrieve the long johns, frantically leaving the clothing drawers hanging open?

She may have been wearing the Barbie gown, or been redressed in it as part of the bedroom staging. This is an unknown, but it is possible she was assaulted in another room but placed into her own bedroom in an attempt to construct a staged crime-scene?

It does appear that she was redressed in a hurry, because those size-12's are a smoking gun. Its possible that the longjohns played a practical role, in that they confine and hold up those size-12's. I suspect if JonBenet was dressed in the Barbie gown they might just fall down?

What I do take from this crime scene is that there was frantic activity going on around JB's bedroom; that she bled onto her pillowcase; that she was sexually assaulted and strangled in the basement by the paint tray, where she died; that her body was staged in the cellar room by a "caring" perp; that a ransom note was written to confuse and divert LE by someone who had no fear of discovery from sleeping family upstairs, on Patsy's pad, with Patsy's pen, with Patsy's handwriting, language, and style.

Good summary. Although I reckon she was sexually assaulted upstairs and internal injuries were inflicted upon her, later in the basement, using the paintbrush. In ST's book this is referred to as vaginal trauma to distinguish it from the acute molestation that occurred as cited by Meyer.

Have you ever read the story of the exec. secretary who worked at Access Graphics who claimed to have been told by JR's secretary that Patsy caught JR with JB and accidently hit JB when swinging at JR? The woman allegedly took a polygraph and passed, according to the polygraph examiner who told this story. There is supposed to be an affadavit where this is written up and signed by the woman. I don't know if there's any truth to this, of course, but it is an interesting explanation that has been tossed around for years.

Yes I've read it before, but why would Patsy then defend John, and not immediately dial 911, her baby is lying unconcious in front of her?

Unless Burke was a more mature or precocious child than we give him credit for. The violent nature of this crime seems to rule him out. We not only have a head injury, but marks over her body that are consistent with her being whacked, and of course the marks on her neck indicating some form of strangulation. All this after JonBenet was molested.

It's possible that JonBenet refused her abuser who then lost it similarly, and this might mean her death was intentional?

Of course the Bedwetting theory may be correct and Patsy enraged with the knowledge of the abuse simply loses it with JonBenet and the rest is a coverup.

The latter seems more consistent with what we know, including the chronic abuse, which might explain Patsy's collusion?

I hate to sound like a conspiracy nut, but I've spent 15 years watching this case being twisted and FUBAR. It always goes back to what happened in the first hours, days, weeks, and months: someone was influencing the investigation before 911 was ever called, IMO. I'm not buying the BS we've been fed so long, where so many, for some coincidental, odd reason they use as an excuse, didn't do what they were supposed to do as professionals to aid in the murder investigation.

Of course its a conspiracy. Who authorised Pam to go on a supermarket trawl through the house, did she have an itemized list? At this point the BPD had not identified the primary crime-scene, so why allow a family relative in to remove potentially incriminating evidence? BPD officers accompanied her yet they never listed what she removed!

On the redaction, from memory, the duct tape was initially redacted then included in the final release. The autopsy report was written in such a manner that Meyer would have to take the stand and explain his rationale. e.g. Birefringement Material or the cause of death, did the head injury encompass the asphyxiation due to oxygen depletion etc. How about the acute abuse, was this coterminous with her head injury. His verbatim remarks to Arndt regarding sexual contact is explicit, and so the follow up questions would relate to the chronic abuse?


.

 

[Tessa2009]

.

The fact that Burke refused to be interviewed by LE last year to help with the investigation pretty much tells me he wants to keep it that way.

Respectfully snipped by me

I hope, and believe, that Burke will speak once John has passed.

 

[Tessa2009]

All of your (everyone's) thoughts on how and why JB was murdered give me food for thought. I still cannot come up with any reason as to why a mother/father would molest and murder their daughter. They both had to have done something so wrong that they agreed to cover for the other - OR - everything that happened down in the basement was JR without Patsy's knowledge. I've always thought it was either Patsy snapped and killed JB because she wet the bed -OR- she caught JR molesting JB and went to hit him and instead accidentally hit JB, thinking she killed her they came up with "kidnapping" theory and while Patsy wrote the note JR did all the stuff down in the basement. In either scenario, JR would do anyting to try and hide the prior molestation evidence. But how Patsy could control herself after hearing the autopsy report I could never understand. Whatever happened, these two monsters deserve to suffer. I'm sure you've all commented in some way about all this, but holy cow is there a lot to read here on WS regarding JBR!!! So, I apologize if this has all been covered before.

 

[Cracka*Jaxx]

I'm sure you've all commented in some way about all this, but holy cow is there a lot to read here on WS regarding JBR!!!

Boy, can I relate! There's a lot to read on WS period! I imagine that as new people register, or become interested in a specific case, there will always be repeated comments and questions. And since I'm interested in every case on here, I will never catch up on everything. I only hope the old timers will be patient with us!

 

[mtwentz]

I still cannot come up with any reason as to why a mother/father would molest and murder their daughter.

I can think of lots of reasons some families would, but the Rs don't really fill the profile of that type of family. Although after the show I am leaning heavily that someone in the house was the perp, I still want to leave some wiggle room for the possibility of an intruder for the very reason you stated.

 

[jeeps]

It has been found in the epidemiological literature on CSA that there is no identifiable demographic or family characteristic of a child that can be used to bar the prospect that a child has been sexually abused.

-Finkelhor D (1993). "Epidemiological factors in the clinical identification of child sexual abuse". Child Abuse & Neglect 17 (1): 67–70. doi:10.1016/0145-2134(93)90009-T. PMID 8435788.

It can happen to anybody.

 

[KoldKase]

It has been found in the epidemiological literature on CSA that there is no identifiable demographic or family characteristic of a child that can be used to bar the prospect that a child has been sexually abused.

-Finkelhor D (1993). "Epidemiological factors in the clinical identification of child sexual abuse". Child Abuse & Neglect 17 (1): 67–70. doi:10.1016/0145-2134(93)90009-T. PMID 8435788.

It can happen to anybody.

Thank you. In fact of reality, the more powerful the abuser, the less likely he will ever be exposed. Also, the nature of sexual abuse of a child is that it is by law a sealed investigation and very discreet prosecution, if it ever gets that far.

 

[Whaleshark]

Koldkase said:
"I've recently written on another thread here why I believe Patsy Ramsey already knew JonBenet was being molested. I don't know how long she knew, since Pam Archuleta didn't give a timeline for the conversation she told a reporter about, where Patsy was concerned about JB flirting and being too friendly with "strangers." I don't believe "strangers" were the concern, because if Patsy thought for one second a stranger were molesting JonBenet, she'd have been at the BPD when the doors opened.

...So once JB was unconscious from the deadly bludgeoning, why take her to the basement once she was unconscious on her bed? As was said by Wecht and Dawna on Tricia's excellent radio show, in taking her to the hospital no doubt the molestation would be found and the Ramseys would be answering some hard questions they obviously didn't want to answer".
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So, if Patsy knew about the molestations, and knew they were not a stranger, why take her to the doctor 30 times in 3 years, including calling right before Xmas. If she knew all the time it was either JR or BR, and was trying to hide it, I'd think she would avoid taking her to the doctor visits... unless it was Munchausen by proxy...or she didn't know...or if she did know, she might have thought it was not someone in the family, or at least not JR.

 

[KoldKase]

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So, if Patsy knew about the molestations, and knew they were not a stranger, why take her to the doctor 30 times in 3 years, including calling right before Xmas. If she knew all the time it was either JR or BR, and was trying to hide it, I'd think she would avoid taking her to the doctor visits... unless it was Munchausen by proxy...or she didn't know...or if she did know, she might have thought it was not someone in the family, or at least not JR.

I don't believe every visit to the doctor in that 3 years was for vaginal problems. No doubt Patsy's cancer treatments caused the children stress and other related health problems besides the average colds, flu, etc.

In fact, Patsy said JB had sinus problems frequently. I've often wondered if that could have been caused or irritated by things like bleaching and dying her hair, perfumes from cosmetics, dyes for costumes, hair extensions, hair spray, fingernail polish or remover, etc.

JonBenet was said to be sick on Christmas Eve Day, or maybe it was Christmas Day? I get confused because it seldom is brought up anymore. I've never heard anyone say exactly what was wrong with her, either.

Munchausen By Proxy has been speculated on and is as good a theory as any, since we really don't know what was going on with JB and Patsy. Dr. Beuf said it wasn't an unusual amount of visits, but it would have been very unusual in my family.

I agree that it wouldn't make sense for Patsy to take JB to the doctor if she wanted to cover up molestation. But the doctor never gave JB a vaginal exam, and Patsy was always present, she told Det. Haney. Maybe she wasn't sure, but had suspicions, not really wanting to know if it were true, but looking to see if Dr. Beuf found anything to be alarmed about.

Or maybe PR thought it had stopped. Maybe she just wanted to be sure JB was alright physically without telling the doc what happened.

Or maybe Patsy had only found out how far it had gone not long before the murder. Maybe that's what the 3 phone calls to the doctor were about on Dec. 17th.

Really, your guess is as good as mine when Patsy might have become aware, which is why I wish Mrs. Archuleta had been specific on the date Patsy expressed her concerns about JB's behavior. But how can she not have noticed bloody discharge which was certain to be in her child's panties at some point?

Maybe that's what she found on Dec. 25th when dressing JB for bed, and that began the horrors of that night. As far as I know, no one has ever said LE identified the panties that JB actually wore to the Whites' party that evening.

Let's see if I can be clear: I've worked as a volunteer at a sexual assault center and one thing they train you to recognize is inappropriate sexual behavior in children who are sexually abused. Their abuser, especially an experienced adult, knows how to manipulate the child not to "tell." But a young child the age of JonBenet cannot always edit herself when it comes to the mixed messages of sexual abuse. If she's been getting "rewards" for the abuse, if she's been groomed to believe she's "special" and that the sexual behavior is a good thing in various ways--that's how abusers can condition their victims, after all--then she can't comprehend the subtle and subconscious things she's learned from her abuser which surface in her behavior with others. So acting in inappropriate ways may be subtle, but sooner or later it can set off alarms if the caregivers are paying attention.

The autopsy is fact. When, who, where...details for which we don't have the answers. It's my opinion Patsy knew at some point before Dec. 25th that something was very wrong. How much she knew, whether she was in denial, or even if she was the abuser, I don't know. But all the evidence points to her knowing she had a huge problem.

I can tell you right now the most common response from the family to incest is strong denial. If it becomes undeniable, next is blame--blame the victim, because that will invariably be the most vulnerable and powerless, therefore the easiest to blame.

But covering it up is nearly always priority one if the abuser is in the family.

 

[Tessa2009]

What has JR's ex wife ever said? I don't think I've ever heard anything about her. If JR was abusing JB, he most likely molested his eldest that passed in the car accident. I walk away from this case for long bouts of time because there is just so much information to digest. If you can lead me to any discussions regarding my question it will be greatly appreciated.