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What has JR's ex wife ever said? I don't think I've ever heard anything about her. If JR was abusing JB, he most likely molested his eldest that passed in the car accident. I walk away from this case for long bouts of time because there is just so much information to digest. If you can lead me to any discussions regarding my question it will be greatly appreciated.

I don't believe JR's wife has ever said anything publicly. JR got a lawyer for her immediately, which is odd in itself. She was nowhere near Boulder at the time, and she has never been a suspect in the crime. I believe he got her lawyered up right away to prevent her from being questioned by LE. She didn't need a lawyer for that anyway, because NO person ever has to talk to police. Even suspects do not. To hire a lawyer for a woman with NO connection to the crime at all is so suspicious that I am surprised more wasn't made of it at the time.
There was suspicion that JR's older son with his first wife was actually in Boulder at the time, and not in Georgia with his mother for Christmas, as he maintains. JR's first wife may have been asked to produce photos or other evidence (it was Christmas Day, a day when most families take photos or videos) proving her son JAR was, in fact, in Georgia that day. That would be something a lawyer could certainly get in the way of.
She would also have likely been questioned about whether she believed there had been any inappropriate contact between JR and his elder daughters.
 
That's why I was wondering if she had ever said anything. With JR lawyering her up makes me believe he definitely has something to hide regarding sexual abuse. I hope that if there is actually an open case file for JBRs murder the police will speak with her, his eldest son and Burke. If JR was abusing JB, she wasn't his first.
 
That's why I was wondering if she had ever said anything. With JR lawyering her up makes me believe he definitely has something to hide regarding sexual abuse. I hope that if there is actually an open case file for JBRs murder the police will speak with her, his eldest son and Burke. If JR was abusing JB, she wasn't his first.

The case IS still open. ALL unsolved murders are open cases, even if no one is really working on them. And they remain open until solved. There is no statute of limitations on murder.
 
Boy, can I relate! There's a lot to read on WS period! I imagine that as new people register, or become interested in a specific case, there will always be repeated comments and questions. And since I'm interested in every case on here, I will never catch up on everything. I only hope the old timers will be patient with us!

Of course we will be patient. :)

We also know that many people have had so much misinformation fed to them that we have a lot of work to get the truth out.
 
Hi Everyone,

I have been "lurking" here at the JBR site for the past few weeks, and I got to listen to a "portion" of the WS Show last Sunday evening ... I will go back when I get time and listen to the show in its entirety.

:great: The information here is GREAT !

I followed the case from the beginning and for a couple of years, -- but did not follow for a very long time. And now that I found WS, it has definitely peaked my interest again !

But I have a question ?

What "book" do you recommend to read regarding the JBR case ? I have seen references to PMPT and DOI, and I think it's STs book ?

Any suggestions would be most appreciated.

And thanks to Tricia and WS for keeping this story ALIVE ... I would love to see this case SOLVED SOON ! JBR deserves Justice !

MOO ...
 
Hi Everyone,

I have been "lurking" here at the JBR site for the past few weeks, and I got to listen to a "portion" of the WS Show last Sunday evening ... I will go back when I get time and listen to the show in its entirety.

:great: The information here is GREAT !

I followed the case from the beginning and for a couple of years, -- but did not follow for a very long time. And now that I found WS, it has definitely peaked my interest again !

But I have a question ?

What "book" do you recommend to read regarding the JBR case ? I have seen references to PMPT and DOI, and I think it's STs book ?

Any suggestions would be most appreciated.

And thanks to Tricia and WS for keeping this story ALIVE ... I would love to see this case SOLVED SOON ! JBR deserves Justice !

MOO ...
I just read Steve Thomas' book "JonBenet" and PMPT, and thought they gave me a pretty good background. I am now interested in reading Cyril Wecht's book. I do not completely buy into the scenario he laid out in the show, so I would like to see the totality of evidence he uses to support his theory.
 
I don't believe every visit to the doctor in that 3 years was for vaginal problems. No doubt Patsy's cancer treatments caused the children stress and other related health problems besides the average colds, flu, etc.

In fact, Patsy said JB had sinus problems frequently. I've often wondered if that could have been caused or irritated by things like bleaching and dying her hair, perfumes from cosmetics, dyes for costumes, hair extensions, hair spray, fingernail polish or remover, etc.

JonBenet was said to be sick on Christmas Eve Day, or maybe it was Christmas Day? I get confused because it seldom is brought up anymore. I've never heard anyone say exactly what was wrong with her, either.

Munchausen By Proxy has been speculated on and is as good a theory as any, since we really don't know what was going on with JB and Patsy. Dr. Beuf said it wasn't an unusual amount of visits, but it would have been very unusual in my family.

I agree that it wouldn't make sense for Patsy to take JB to the doctor if she wanted to cover up molestation. But the doctor never gave JB a vaginal exam, and Patsy was always present, she told Det. Haney. Maybe she wasn't sure, but had suspicions, not really wanting to know if it were true, but looking to see if Dr. Beuf found anything to be alarmed about.

Or maybe PR thought it had stopped. Maybe she just wanted to be sure JB was alright physically without telling the doc what happened.

Or maybe Patsy had only found out how far it had gone not long before the murder. Maybe that's what the 3 phone calls to the doctor were about on Dec. 17th.

Really, your guess is as good as mine when Patsy might have become aware, which is why I wish Mrs. Archuleta had been specific on the date Patsy expressed her concerns about JB's behavior. But how can she not have noticed bloody discharge which was certain to be in her child's panties at some point?

Maybe that's what she found on Dec. 25th when dressing JB for bed, and that began the horrors of that night. As far as I know, no one has ever said LE identified the panties that JB actually wore to the Whites' party that evening.

Let's see if I can be clear: I've worked as a volunteer at a sexual assault center and one thing they train you to recognize is inappropriate sexual behavior in children who are sexually abused. Their abuser, especially an experienced adult, knows how to manipulate the child not to "tell." But a young child the age of JonBenet cannot always edit herself when it comes to the mixed messages of sexual abuse. If she's been getting "rewards" for the abuse, if she's been groomed to believe she's "special" and that the sexual behavior is a good thing in various ways--that's how abusers can condition their victims, after all--then she can't comprehend the subtle and subconscious things she's learned from her abuser which surface in her behavior with others. So acting in inappropriate ways may be subtle, but sooner or later it can set off alarms if the caregivers are paying attention.

The autopsy is fact. When, who, where...details for which we don't have the answers. It's my opinion Patsy knew at some point before Dec. 25th that something was very wrong. How much she knew, whether she was in denial, or even if she was the abuser, I don't know. But all the evidence points to her knowing she had a huge problem.

I can tell you right now the most common response from the family to incest is strong denial. If it becomes undeniable, next is blame--blame the victim, because that will invariably be the most vulnerable and powerless, therefore the easiest to blame.

But covering it up is nearly always priority one if the abuser is in the family.

KoldKase,
As far as I know, no one has ever said LE identified the panties that JB actually wore to the Whites' party that evening.
Correct. But they did question the parents on what underwear JonBenet was wearing on the 25th. Both parents affected amnesia, despite Patsy saying she dressed JonBenet in those longjohns.

If you accept JonBenet was redressed in the size-12's then presumably her size-6 pair went the same route as the remaining size-12's? Which Patsy said were in her underwear drawer, but BPD stated they were not. I'm too lazy to check the timeline but there is something going on here, In the sense Patsy knows to say nothing.

Here is a question for you all. If you were Patsy, and even if you knew your daughter was being abused, possibly by Patsy herself. And there was some accident, would you refuse your daughter medical assistance then stage her in a fake crime-scene using her body like a mannekin?
 
Hi Everyone,

I have been "lurking" here at the JBR site for the past few weeks, and I got to listen to a "portion" of the WS Show last Sunday evening ... I will go back when I get time and listen to the show in its entirety.

:great: The information here is GREAT !

I followed the case from the beginning and for a couple of years, -- but did not follow for a very long time. And now that I found WS, it has definitely peaked my interest again !

But I have a question ?

What "book" do you recommend to read regarding the JBR case ? I have seen references to PMPT and DOI, and I think it's STs book ?

Any suggestions would be most appreciated.

And thanks to Tricia and WS for keeping this story ALIVE ... I would love to see this case SOLVED SOON ! JBR deserves Justice !

MOO ...

dog.gone.cute,
I'd buy the hardback version of Steve Thomas' book Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation. It does a good timeline to events and airs most of the theories.

PMPT zig-zags backwards and forwards with anecdotes and personal profiles that in parts it reads a bit like a supermarket tabloid in places.

.
 
:tyou::tyou:


Thanks so for the recommendations ... hopefully, the local bookstore will have ST's book ... and after that, will read PMPT.

This will help me get "caught up" ... as well as reading here at WS -- which has some great threads !
 
:tyou::tyou:


Thanks so for the recommendations ... hopefully, the local bookstore will have ST's book ... and after that, will read PMPT.

This will help me get "caught up" ... as well as reading here at WS -- which has some great threads !

I am sure you can find ST's book at Amazon.com or Barnes & Nobel.com if you local bookstore doesn't have it or can't order it.
 
KoldKase,

Correct. But they did question the parents on what underwear JonBenet was wearing on the 25th. Both parents affected amnesia, despite Patsy saying she dressed JonBenet in those longjohns.

If you accept JonBenet was redressed in the size-12's then presumably her size-6 pair went the same route as the remaining size-12's? Which Patsy said were in her underwear drawer, but BPD stated they were not. I'm too lazy to check the timeline but there is something going on here, In the sense Patsy knows to say nothing.

Here is a question for you all. If you were Patsy, and even if you knew your daughter was being abused, possibly by Patsy herself. And there was some accident, would you refuse your daughter medical assistance then stage her in a fake crime-scene using her body like a mannekin?


Interesting question.

First let me address the issue of the "missing" panties JB actually wore to the Whites: in '98 Haney asked Patsy about some stained underwear inside some pants in JB's room, seen in a crime scene photo. We've never seen that photo, of course, but Patsy again "didn't remember" what JB wore that day, and in spite of the fact Patsy said she and JB argued over what JB would wear to the White's home that evening, Patsy's memory again relapsed when it came to remembering if JB changed underwear or bathed herself.

Ha! Patsy could remember the tiniest detail when she needed it--even if she had to make it up. But important things that would help LE in the investigation, like if JB was trained to wash her hands before eating or after using the bathroom? She couldn't remember la de dah.

Personally, I think the underwear JB wore to the White's went the way of the "roll of duct tape," the end of the paintbrush, and the "roll of cord": somewhere LE never found them: maybe in a bag of golf clubs or a hundred other places not searched before the Ramseys or Aunt Pam obsconded with them.

If you were Patsy, and even if you knew your daughter was being abused, possibly by Patsy herself. And there was some accident, would you refuse your daughter medical assistance then stage her in a fake crime-scene using her body like a mannekin?

That's a twisted question, UKGuy. :waitasec: If I were Patsy, I'd do just what she did because I wouldn't be me.

But what would I do?

First, I would never have abused my child. Second, I never would have stood by and kept silent if anyone else were abusing my child and I found out. If the abuser were another child, I'd have taken both children to get professional help immediately, under confidentiality terms and as minors.

If it were an adult family member committing the abuse, I'd like to think I'd have the restraint to call LE instead of killing him myself, but I certainly would make him wish he were dead. Especially if it related to an "accident" that killed my child on top of the sexual abuse.

Yes, I'd have taken her to the ER. I'd have told the doctors exactly what happened in hopes that all they knew would help in treating my child. If she still died, I don't believe I'd EVER have forgiven ANYONE who hurt her and caused such a violent outcome.

But I have seen families who will cover up and lie for abusive family members without a second thought, people who call themselves good Christians and all the rest, too.

I'll just repeat what Marilyn Van Derbur said her mother and father would have done to her if they'd thought she were going to reveal to outsiders his systematic sexual abuse of her for 12 years of her childhood: she said they'd have killed her and then gone to lunch.
 
I suspect Mary Lacy would accept no evidence that showed up against the Ramseys.

The BODE DNA tech who did the "touch" testing on the clothing said in a videotaped segment for TV, where she was in the lab demonstrating how she processed the clothing/DNA, that she discarded some DNA. She never said what DNA and she never said whose. Of course she wasn't asked because she was giving the reporter a dog-and-pony show for a news segment and the timer was running.

If the cord wasn't processed recently--or ever--for DNA (maybe at the same time as the "touch" DNA testing) then it's clear LE has no intention of ever solving this case.

But would we ever hear about it if DNA was found on the cord? Especially if it were a Ramsey's, when they've claimed all along the cord wasn't theirs and was brought in by the intruder? I'd bet the farm it would have been reported by Lacy if unsourced DNA were found on it. THE ENTIRE FARM.

I truly believe your farm would be safe and sound, in reference to Mary Lacy. The thing is, I truly believe that many of the officers involved in the case truly wanted the case solved. I also believe that if the R's had been separated and interrogated when police arrived and later when JonBenets body had been found, that there would have been a resolution to this case.

The theory you presented involving a 'fixer' is in my mind, truly what happened. The R's, while wealthy and educated, did not seem all that smart in some ways. I think they had someone leading their every move that night and day, as well as for the following 15 years.

I don't believe JR's wife has ever said anything publicly. JR got a lawyer for her immediately, which is odd in itself. She was nowhere near Boulder at the time, and she has never been a suspect in the crime. I believe he got her lawyered up right away to prevent her from being questioned by LE. She didn't need a lawyer for that anyway, because NO person ever has to talk to police. Even suspects do not. To hire a lawyer for a woman with NO connection to the crime at all is so suspicious that I am surprised more wasn't made of it at the time.
There was suspicion that JR's older son with his first wife was actually in Boulder at the time, and not in Georgia with his mother for Christmas, as he maintains. JR's first wife may have been asked to produce photos or other evidence (it was Christmas Day, a day when most families take photos or videos) proving her son JAR was, in fact, in Georgia that day. That would be something a lawyer could certainly get in the way of.
She would also have likely been questioned about whether she believed there had been any inappropriate contact between JR and his elder daughters.

DeeDee, in previous discussions we have had on this topic, we have also commented on the HUGE difference in the way that John grieved for Beth, vs his grieving process for JonBenet.

John had no control over Beth's death, or cause of death. Was this the reason for the difference in grieving? Wa he distancing himself from his guilt, so therefore distanced himself from his feelings of grief?

So, who were all these lawyers protecting? John, or his eldest son?

UK guy, I still have trouble believing that Burke wasn't involved in some part of this, but at the least, I wish I were a fly on the wall and knew what he really knows or remembers?
 
:tyou::tyou:


Thanks so for the recommendations ... hopefully, the local bookstore will have ST's book ... and after that, will read PMPT.

This will help me get "caught up" ... as well as reading here at WS -- which has some great threads !

You can read ST's book online. You can also read acandyrose.com and the archives here. Tons of information.
 
I just read Steve Thomas' book "JonBenet" and PMPT, and thought they gave me a pretty good background. I am now interested in reading Cyril Wecht's book. I do not completely buy into the scenario he laid out in the show, so I would like to see the totality of evidence he uses to support his theory.

Well, you have to read the Ramsey's book or you will not get the full effect of how much they change their story and flat out lie. You can probably buy it on Amazon for .80 :)
 
Yes, it does. Thanks, KoldKase. I knew the head injury was only discovered at the autopsy, but
Dr. Wecht threw me off with his statement about so little blood, and seeming to attribute it to JB being dead or near death when the blow was struck. Maybe I misunderstood what he said, but that's how I took it. I still think the head injury came first, and because JB was still breathing, she was garroted, and from behind so the person didn't have to see her face. Couldn't bear to look at her, ya know?

Agreed, 100%
 
I don't really know how to properly thank Tricia, Kimster and everyone else who worked to get this radio interview going. THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!! Long overdue. I won't ever be convinced that anyone other than the Ramsey's took the life of their daughter. IMHOO
The radio show was beyond excellent.

This was only the BEGINNING!
 

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