Ramsey Clothing Journey

[JMO8778]

And another thing...

The R's said over and over again that they OFTEN just picked the children up asleep in whatever they wore to bed and took them to the plane where they could fall back asleep during the flight...

Why was it necessary for them to point this out so pointedly???? Was it to cover-up for the time they SAID that they woke up not adding up in te timeframe of how long in reality, it should have taken them to get ready to walk out the door to catch the flight???

that would be my guess,and perhaps she also had no outfits laid out for them to wear in the morning,just like she hadn't written the check she was supposed to leave for the housekeeper.

 

[azwriter]

good point,so if Patsy took a shower,but yet still put the same clothes back on...not to mention,she deliberately threw herself on top of the body..she knew there might be some fiber evidence on JB she needed to account for.
John,OTOH,tried to distance himself from it all,even though evidence is found that he was there as well.he also threw the blanket on top of JB bf Patsy walked in...

I'm not sure, but wasn't there some mention of the shower in Patsy's bathroom being broken?

 

[JMO8778]

I'm not sure, but wasn't there some mention of the shower in Patsy's bathroom being broken?

yes,but it was also said there were several other showers in the house,surely if she wanted to take one,she could have.

 

[UKGuy]

Thomas states that if the R's had awakened at the time they said they did on the 26th, that they could never have made their scheduled flight time.

If that was true, I need at ask you guys again, what is the minimum time that you feel the murder and all the staging would have taken to have completed?

Could JB have been dressed by Patsy, very early that morning in the red jumpsuit, JB accidently soiled it, and JB gotten into a throw down with Patsy over the soiling and over whatever PR wanted to change her into after the jumpsuit is no longer a possibility? Maybe this 2nd outfit included the red turtleneck that had already stemmed an argument the day before?

angelwngs,
The staging would probably take about an hour not much more. e.g. cleanup, redressing, relocation, evidence removal. But I reckon there was more than one staging, a minimum of two, also the wine-cellar staging appears to have come late in the morning?

So assuming a PDI for whatever reason then later that morning John finds out about then decides to change the staging, so on this second staging, it should take less time to construct, since major parts were accomplished in the first staging. So thats possibly an hour and a half or two hours in total, allowing for the ransom note to be written, this was probably took up a bit of time?


Not certain what you mean by very early that morning? Because the pineapple has not completed its transit through JonBenet's intestine, this places a time limit on how close she died to after having her snack, lets say an hour or two?

So the average tod is assumed to be about 1AM, leaving 4 hours and more for staging.

Another staging location may have been the basement itself, with a similar scenario. JonBenet dressed in her barbie gown, and whacked on the head, but this does not seem as compelling as using her bedroom, since there is little logic to a basement staging.

.

 

[UKGuy]

yes,but it was also said there were several other showers in the house,surely if she wanted to take one,she could have.

JMO8778,
Yes John could have said use my shower, then I'll use it after you, in the meantime I'll just go and check the ransom note on my knees and in my underwear, don't worry I wont touch it and leave my prints on it. Now where are my khaki slacks?


.

 

[UKGuy]

I know UK Guy has pointed this out many times, but- the most important connection with clothing is the redressing of JBR. There just isn't much reason for an intruder to have redressed her in anything - size 6s, size 12s, whatever. There was no reason to redress her in white. No reason to wrap her in a blanket and hide her body in the wine cellar. An intruder would have concentrated on getting out of the house.

Chrishope,
Sure, so no intruder kidnapped JonBenet, otherwise you would not have her body. So this tells you the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene, and that she was killed elsewhere.

So depending on your favorite theory that can location be John's bedroom, JonBenet's bathroom, or her own bedroom, an outside option is JAR's bedroom.

Note apart from the bathroom they are nearly all bedrooms, and if you want to stage the death of a child that occurs during the night the obvious starting point is a bedroom, certainly not some obscure windowless room hidden away in the basement.

The big question is what would motivate someone to kill a child in the early hours of the morning, some say Toilet Rage but toileting evidence was never removed, and a toileting incident does not need such a bizarre coverup?

So how about Sexual Rage with that scream from JonBenet being silenced by her being held by the throat. Thinking she is dead, or not caring this turns into a bedroom staging, then the wine-cellar staging?


I'm convinced that it was the flashlight that inflicted the rectangular head injury, it may not have been staging, so did Patsy whack JonBenet on the head, again to silence her, seems pretty cruel?

JonBenet's neck injuries suggest that she was initially throttled and the garrote is employed to cover this up, similarly her wipe down, and redressing all to hide and cover up her sexual assault.

Now the violence used is not needed to silence a six year old girl, so why would you whack her with a flashlight or garrote her? I reckon these are parts of a staging process, where someone is intending to create a violent homicide, but that the head injury never materialized visually, so it was amended to become the wine-cellar staging?


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[Ames]

Speaking of clothing:

JonBenet's body was discovered dressed in white: white top, white bottoms. They were clean.

Are we really to believe that this girl, wearing white, struggled for her life in a filthy basement without getting considerably dirty? When I was six-years-old, I ALWAYS got dirty, and by doing a lot LESS than what we are asked to believe happened.

Good point! If those Longjohns were removed and then placed back on her in the basement...while she is on that nasty floor....then they would have been filthy, also as you pointed out...if she struggled...(which she didn't, because she was unconsious), her clothes would have been dirty.

 

[angelwngs]

angelwngs,
The staging would probably take about an hour not much more. e.g. cleanup, redressing, relocation, evidence removal. But I reckon there was more than one staging, a minimum of two, also the wine-cellar staging appears to have come late in the morning?

So assuming a PDI for whatever reason then later that morning John finds out about then decides to change the staging, so on this second staging, it should take less time to construct, since major parts were accomplished in the first staging. So thats possibly an hour and a half or two hours in total, allowing for the ransom note to be written, this was probably took up a bit of time?


Not certain what you mean by very early that morning? Because the pineapple has not completed its transit through JonBenet's intestine, this places a time limit on how close she died to after having her snack, lets say an hour or two?

So the average tod is assumed to be about 1AM, leaving 4 hours and more for staging.

Another staging location may have been the basement itself, with a similar scenario. JonBenet dressed in her barbie gown, and whacked on the head, but this does not seem as compelling as using her bedroom, since there is little logic to a basement staging.

.

Thank you, UKG. What if the Pineapple was for breakfast and not a snack when they got home?

The single teabag in a glass makes more sense now too. They were running out the door to go on a trip shortly. Patsy is making coffee. She puts pineapple out for Burke or JB. One of them asks for a glass of tea and there is none made. So a quick single glass is made instead of a full pitcher. Or a hot cup of tea with sugar and milk... and the glass was just used as a storage unit for the teabag... (My kids always wanted hot tea with lots of sugar and a tiny bit of milk when they had a sore throat or felt bad. And my youngest, when getting sick, was an absolute Holy Terror! You could always tell when he was getting sick just by the drastic change in his attitude and behavior.) JB was "sick" all Christmas Day...and 'confined to her room'...(Yet, she was well enough to go to the Whites dinner party that night...) That doesn't fit... It doesn't make sense...

What parent would keep their child confined to their room all day on Christmas DAY because they had a slight cold, but allowed them to go to a Christmas dinner and stay out in the Colorado night air helping deliver Christmas gifts????

 

[Ames]

Imo the green garland pieces found on the victim's body (wasn't it in the hair?) contradict a "she was first assaulted in the basement" theory. For the garland was from the spiral stairs, so the body was most likely carried down those stairs when already in a coma from the head blow.

ITA...I have said that all along. Yes, it was in her hair, indicating to me also, that she was already unconscious when carried down the stairs.

 

[BBB167893]

ITA...I have said that all along. Yes, it was in her hair, indicating to me also, that she was already unconscious when carried down the stairs.

I'm with you, too.

 

[UKGuy]

Thank you, UKG. What if the Pineapple was for breakfast and not a snack when they got home?

The single teabag in a glass makes more sense now too. They were running out the door to go on a trip shortly. Patsy is making coffee. She puts pineapple out for Burke or JB. One of them asks for a glass of tea and there is none made. So a quick single glass is made instead of a full pitcher. Or a hot cup of tea with sugar and milk... and the glass was just used as a storage unit for the teabag... (My kids always wanted hot tea with lots of sugar and a tiny bit of milk when they had a sore throat or felt bad. And my youngest, when getting sick, was an absolute Holy Terror! You could always tell when he was getting sick just by the drastic change in his attitude and behavior.) JB was "sick" all Christmas Day...and 'confined to her room'...(Yet, she was well enough to go to the Whites dinner party that night...) That doesn't fit... It doesn't make sense...

What parent would keep their child confined to their room all day on Christmas DAY because they had a slight cold, but allowed them to go to a Christmas dinner and stay out in the Colorado night air helping deliver Christmas gifts????

angelwngs,

Thank you, UKG. What if the Pineapple was for breakfast and not a snack when they got home?

Yes its just about possible, Ive suggested this already so to explain away the apparent rush in the wine-cellar staging, but others say the estimated tod and rigor does not match?

What parent would keep their child confined to their room all day on Christmas DAY because they had a slight cold, but allowed them to go to a Christmas dinner and stay out in the Colorado night air helping deliver Christmas gifts????

I agree with you. Its probably all related to JonBenet and Patsy falling out over the MyTwinn Doll. JonBenet was likely sent to her room as a punishment, take a look at the xmas morning photo of JonBenet in her pj's and Patsy holding onto her, there is a sense of tension in the photo, particularly in Patsy's face?

 

[UKGuy]

Good point! If those Longjohns were removed and then placed back on her in the basement...while she is on that nasty floor....then they would have been filthy, also as you pointed out...if she struggled...(which she didn't, because she was unconsious), her clothes would have been dirty.

Ames,
Like I said a long time ago, the blanket was not meant to be an indication of parental concern, more a guard against forensic contamination?


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[Ames]

angelwngs,

Yes its just about possible, Ive suggested this already so to explain away the apparent rush in the wine-cellar staging, but others say the estimated tod and rigor does not match?


I agree with you. Its probably all related to JonBenet and Patsy falling out over the MyTwinn Doll. JonBenet was likely sent to her room as a punishment, take a look at the xmas morning photo of JonBenet in her pj's and Patsy holding onto her, there is a sense of tension in the photo, particularly in Patsy's face?

YES THERE IS! I had never really noticed that before, until I saw an enlargement of that photo. Patsy, IMO..looks as if she had been crying. Her face is red, and her eyes are swollen...not to mention that grasp on JB's arm. I do believe that the reaction to the My Twinn doll, from JB, was the start of a downward spiral. I have only seen one other Christmas morning picture of JB. I would just LOVE to know where the rest of those pictures are, you KNOW that they didn't just take TWO.

 

[Ames]

Ames,
Like I said a long time ago, the blanket was not meant to be an indication of parental concern, more a guard against forensic contamination?


.

Yep, you may just have a point there, UKGuy.

 

[DeeDee249]

Forensics tells us the pineapple couldn't have been eaten for breakfast. It would have been much further along in her digestive tract, either as feces or already excreted by the time she was killed.
Foods do not "leap frog" over each other in the digestive process. Foods eaten for breakfast and lunch, no matter what they are, will have been processed into feces before food eaten for dinner. The fact that the pineapple has JUST moved from her stomach into the small intestine indicates that it was eaten within 2 hours of death. It was still fragmented and recognizable as pineapple under analysis. TOD is important in all murder investigations, and cases have been solved based on that evidence. The coroner would have known how much time the food had to get to that state.
Digestion is a metabolic process and all metabolic processes (including digestion) stops at death. Foods do not continue to be digested after death. They will, of course, decompose as the body does and then be unrecognizable, but in this case we can be assured the pineapple was eaten within 2 hours of death. This would be the case even if she had eaten nothing else that day at all.

 

[angelwngs]

Forensics tells us the pineapple couldn't have been eaten for breakfast. It would have been much further along in her digestive tract, either as feces or already excreted by the time she was killed.
Foods do not "leap frog" over each other in the digestive process. Foods eaten for breakfast and lunch, no matter what they are, will have been processed into feces before food eaten for dinner. The fact that the pineapple has JUST moved from her stomach into the small intestine indicates that it was eaten within 2 hours of death. It was still fragmented and recognizable as pineapple under analysis. TOD is important in all murder investigations, and cases have been solved based on that evidence. The coroner would have known how much time the food had to get to that state.
Digestion is a metabolic process and all metabolic processes (including digestion) stops at death. Foods do not continue to be digested after death. They will, of course, decompose as the body does and then be unrecognizable, but in this case we can be assured the pineapple was eaten within 2 hours of death. This would be the case even if she had eaten nothing else that day at all.

Not breakfast on the 25th-

'Breakfast' on the 26th....IF the R's lied about the children not being awake on the early morning of the 26th and if they got up earlier than they said that they did...( I was just considering whether or not they would have had time to have completed the staging if it had been then rather than late night 25th)

 

[DeeDee249]

Not breakfast on the 25th-

'Breakfast' on the 26th....IF the R's lied about the children not being awake on the early morning of the 26th and if they got up earlier than they said that they did...( I was just considering whether or not they would have had time to have completed the staging if it had been then rather than late night 25th)

Still not possible from a forensics point of view. First- if it had been the 26th, it would have been, what, 4-5 am? The 911 call came just before 6am. The pineapple would have still be in her stomach and not progressed to the small intestine at that point. Second, the stages of rigor mortis she was in place her as having died about 12 hours before she was "found" or about midnight-1am.
If JBR was killed about 4-5 am, she would not be in full rigor 6-7 hours later.

She wasn't killed in the wineceller, but her body was placed there after.
But that doesn't mean she was killed upstairs.
Those green garland fibers could have gotten in her hair from the basement and not the spiral stairs. There were green garland bits in the basement, including the wineceller, because all the R Christmas decorations were stored there. If you look at the crime scene photos, there is a shot of the closed wineceller door- just outside that closed door is a green garland-type spray decoration hanging on the wall right next to the wineceller door.
Many of us think the garrote was made right on her and right in the basement. If she had been lain down on the floor in the room just outside the wineceller or the room with PR's paint tote, the green garland could have gotten there at that time. Also, weren't there carpet fibers from the basement found on her as well?

 

[angelwngs]

Thanks DeeDee and UKG-

The digestion does place the eating of the pineapple earlier I see now...but TOD, well, it's still a question in my mind...

 

[DeeDee249]

Thanks DeeDee and UKG-

The digestion does place the eating of the pineapple earlier I see now...but TOD, well, it's still a question in my mind...

TOD is variable only up to a point. The coroner considers not only the contents of the digestive tract, but also the organization (or lack of) of any wound or trauma. Examples would be the level of swelling and bleeding in the brain after such a catastrophic head blow.
The coroner will also consider the stage and degree of rigor and livor mortis and the ambient temperature and humidity in which the body had lain. In addition to the full rigor mortis in which she was found (which takes about 12 hours to achieve) she was also in the non-blanching stage, or fixed stage, of livor mortis, beyond which the blood remaining in the body will no longer move around when the body is moved.
There were two very important procedures that every coroner should perform as soon as they first encounter the deceased. BOTH of these were NOT done on JBR, for reasons unknown.
The first procedure is to take the core body temperature. A special thermometer is used for this- it has a sharp end like a meat thermometer. It is put in the liver and gives a very accurate reading of how much the body has cooled. There is a set formula of how much heat a body loses to the surrounding area according to the air temperature.
The second procedure is to take a sample of the vitreous fluid of the eyeball to check potassium levels. This is also an indication of the TOD.
Meyer has never explained why he did not do these 2 important steps, and to my knowledge, he has never been ASKED why not (except by us).

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
Yes John could have said use my shower, then I'll use it after you, in the meantime I'll just go and check the ransom note on my knees and in my underwear, don't worry I wont touch it and leave my prints on it. Now where are my khaki slacks?


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rofl!