Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder?

[Boomstick]

(quote)
10 Q. But the burnt bone fragments that you saw from
11 the three sites, again, all were roughly similar
12 in their burning, charring, and calcining?
13 A. That is correct.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Trial-Transcript-Day-14-2007Mar01.pdf#page=30

You guys have to stop taking tiny slices and leaving out all the context.

You've quoted the smallest piece that gives the impression you want, and leave out the entirety of the rest which contradicts what you claimed.

In the same testimony you will find that she says the bones were different in size, in the cut marks, certainly in location, they were found something like a mile and a half away, and that they were not even determined to be human, merely suspected at the time.

Contrast that to the bones found in Avery's burnpit and barrel, which were conclusively determined to have been human, female, under the age of 35, with mtDNA matching Teresa Halbach, and a partial DNA profile that they determined would belong to one person in every one billion people.

That is a universe of difference.

 

[Boomstick]

AFAICT Steven never made a statement that he intended to 'run away'.

The rest is pure speculation.

That's where reasonable doubt kicks in.

So let me get this squared away, Steven Avery lies about, well, everything he did that day. But despite that, he never gave a voluntary statement that he'd wanted to run away..... and that is enough for you to conclude that he didn't want to??

Well both Brendan and Bryan both said he did. The same Bryan you seem to be relying on to maintain that Bobby said he saw her leave. Brendan multiple times, including to his mother in recorded phone calls.

 

[proudfootz]

Then how do you account for TH's bones that were found in three different places?
(quote)
There had already been some speculation as to why bones were found in at least three places on the property and why the murderer would move them at all, considering they were moved nearby. Also a cremation expert testified that an open fire, such as one in the Avery fire pit, wouldn’t be intense and hot enough to create what state investigators claimed were the remains of Halbach’s bones.

Yes, a cremation expert testified that the cremains were likely moved to where they were found.

IIRC several buckets were listed in the evidence which had apparently been used to transport the cremains.

No one who claims to have been in the vicinity of the burn pit noticed the unmistakable, unforgettable stench of burning flesh.

No one smelled that stench on either Brendan or Steven.

Since all the available evidence points to the conclusion the cremains were planted, we are left wondering who might be responsible.

No credible motive has been put forward for Steven to plant the cremains st his own home.

 

[proudfootz]

Then again, there were multiple tires. And animal bones scattered about as well. Seems human bodies weren't the only things burning there, nor were carcasses being burned a rarity. They were hunters. There were hunting camps nearby as well.

Logic dictates that? Does logic dictate that they would somehow take all the tiny fragments and embed them in the earth of that burnpit and say it was from on the same night Steven Avery denied having a fire. That they would somehow gather up bone fragments from every bone in the body below the neck, some teeth, and clothing and bury them in the debris of the burnpit and burn barrel?

But, had to have done so by no later than 11/5, when the cadaver dog hit indicated that there were remains in that barrel?

I haven't seen any evidence presented that any bone fragments were 'embedded in the earth'.

Other than some ashes sprinkled onto the surface, there is no evidence any human bodies were burned there.

 

[Karinna]

Avery's lawyers Dean Strang and Jerry Buting argued the pelvic bones were an enormous piece of evidence because they raised the likelihood that Halbach was murdered or dismembered at one of the quarries behind Avery's property, roughly a half-mile away. "The prosecutors agreed that Drs. Steven Symes and Leslie Eisenberg would be allowed to do a microscopic examination of the pelvic bones located in the Manitowoc County gravel pit," Zellner informed the judge Friday.
'Making A Murderer' Attorney Asks Judge For Access To Halbach's RAV4

You guys have to stop taking tiny slices and leaving out all the context.

You've quoted the smallest piece that gives the impression you want, and leave out the entirety of the rest which contradicts what you claimed.

In the same testimony you will find that she says the bones were different in size, in the cut marks, certainly in location, they were found something like a mile and a half away, and that they were not even determined to be human, merely suspected at the time.

Contrast that to the bones found in Avery's burnpit and barrel, which were conclusively determined to have been human, female, under the age of 35, with mtDNA matching Teresa Halbach, and a partial DNA profile that they determined would belong to one person in every one billion people.

That is a universe of difference.

Yes, a cremation expert testified that the cremains were likely moved to where they were found.

IIRC several buckets were listed in the evidence which had apparently been used to transport the cremains.

No one who claims to have been in the vicinity of the burn pit noticed the unmistakable, unforgettable stench of burning flesh.

No one smelled that stench on either Brendan or Steven.

Since all the available evidence points to the conclusion the cremains were planted, we are left wondering who might be responsible.

No credible motive has been put forward for Steven to plant the cremains st his own home.

 

[proudfootz]

All good. I thought that was probably what you meant, but thought it was possible that I had missed something.

Yes, Bryan said that. It's obvious Bryan thought that.

Bobby has been consistent in that as well.

It's he said/he said.

But based upon all the other factors, which I have outlined extensively and repeated, there should really be no real doubt as to what occurred.

I have no doubt as to what occurred.

We have several witnesses who state that Teresa left ASY after taking some photographs.

We have no credible witnesses to Steven committing any crime against Teresa.

 

[Boomstick]

Brendan Dassey didn't know the answer and LE fed it to him about the shooting TH in the head.
As far as anything being exculpatory for Avery, who cares? KZ is not out to prove Avery's innocence, that is not her job.
She is in Post conviction phase in SA's case.
All she is going to prove is Denny/Brady violations,

and that Avery didn't get a fair Trial/ ineffective assistance of counsel.

That is what she is trying, and based on the enormous shifts in claims, the consistently denied motions, and appeals, I'd say her chances are slim.

You don't find it at all telling that the bold declarations of exoneration have yielded to high hopes of a new trial, but only if she can win an evidentiary hearing based on a series of ever-changing theories and accusations?

Who cares? Avery committed the crime. He should be held accountable, as is being held accountable.

As for Brendan, I find his case a lot more muddled and compelling. It's far more worthy of attention.

That said, it is far less simple than he didn't know the answer and they made him say it. I think it is certainly possible he wasn't present for her murder, and that he didn't rape her. With that case I'd say reasonable doubt is, well, very reasonable.

 

[proudfootz]

Thr prosecution’s case does have plenty of weak links. Lots of sloppy errors and poor judgement.

Yes.

This is why so many people have reasonable doubt about their story.

 

[Boomstick]

Avery's lawyers Dean Strang and Jerry Buting argued the pelvic bones were an enormous piece of evidence because they raised the likelihood that Halbach was murdered or dismembered at one of the quarries behind Avery's property, roughly a half-mile away. "The prosecutors agreed that Drs. Steven Symes and Leslie Eisenberg would be allowed to do a microscopic examination of the pelvic bones located in the Manitowoc County gravel pit," Zellner informed the judge Friday.
'Making A Murderer' Attorney Asks Judge For Access To Halbach's RAV4

Read what the cremation expert said. He also said the sole reason for saying so is that bones are usually found where they had been moved to, lol, and that he couldn't testify that the bones hadn't been burned in the burn pit.

So really, again, all we have is a defense trying to make the best of damning evidence.

Nothing has ever come of those burns found in the quarry. Again, not even determined conclusively to be human, let alone Teresa Halbach's.

 

[Karinna]

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but i don't think you really understand how Post Conviction exonerations are won.
Ms. Zellner is a very respected attorney in her field of expertise, and i don't question her expertise at all. She does a terrific job in obtaining justice, IMO.

That is what she is trying, and based on the enormous shifts in claims, the consistently denied motions, and appeals, I'd say her chances are slim.

You don't find it at all telling that the bold declarations of exoneration have yielded to high hopes of a new trial, but only if she can win an evidentiary hearing based on a series of ever-changing theories and accusations?

Who cares? Avery committed the crime. He should be held accountable, as is being held accountable.

As for Brendan, I find his case a lot more muddled and compelling. It's far more worthy of attention.

That said, it is far less simple than he didn't know the answer and they made him say it. I think it is certainly possible he wasn't present for her murder, and that he didn't rape her. With that case I'd say reasonable doubt is, well, very reasonable.

 

[proudfootz]

The only people who claiked there was no fire that night, and later changed are, not-so-coincidentally Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey,

I have shown this to be an utterly false claim.

 

[Boomstick]

Yes.

This is why so many people have reasonable doubt about their story.

Sure, if one's expectation is an air tight case. But reality is that convictions rely on the evidence available.

In order for Steven Avery not to have committed this crime, a conspiracy is needed involving a combo all or some of a half dozen separate law enforcements agencies, including the FBI, the victim's family, the defendants families, the defendants themselves, a tremendous list of ungodly coincidences and bad luck. All the evidence must be false, all the bad luck and coincidences must be merely that. And the defendants own contributions, including a long list of lies, must be explained. There is no way around it.

For Avery to have committed the crime, Steven Avery would have to have lied not having done so. That's it.

 

[Boomstick]

I have shown this to be an utterly false claim.

You haven't shown anything. You are claiming because they didn't just out claim there was a fire for no reason, that they didn't see it. It is a misrepresentation of the facts.

Because they didn't volunteer that they ate dinner, does that mean they didn't? It;s nonsense, I'm sorry.

No one was pursuing anything about a fire, because at that stage of the investigation, the relevance of the fire wasn't known.

Again, if you are claiming the fire was merely the result of mass inception, including the defendants who swore to it having happened, the family of the defendants as well, I'm checking out. It's ridiculous.

 

[proudfootz]

So let me get this squared away, Steven Avery lies about, well, everything he did that day. But despite that, he never gave a voluntary statement that he'd wanted to run away..... and that is enough for you to conclude that he didn't want to??

BBM

I don't know what Steven wanted, and you don't know what he wanted.

We have to constrain ourselves to what he may have said.

Well both Brendan and Bryan both said he did. The same Bryan you seem to be relying on to maintain that Bobby said he saw her leave. Brendan multiple times, including to his mother in recorded phone calls.

If Steven did want to flee from police who had framed him once and stolen his life, so what?

I can hardly blame him.

But it's not 'evidence' of anything.

So these are the same two guys [Brendan and Bryan] whom you don't believe when they testify to facts that exculpate Steven.

 

[Boomstick]

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but i don't think you really understand how Post Conviction exonerations are won.
Ms. Zellner is a very respected attorney in her field of expertise, and i don't question her expertise at all. She does a terrific job in obtaining justice, IMO.

Thank you for clarifying, but I do know how they are done.

That doesn't mean silly or changing claims suddenly become credible, or that continental shifts in strategy have no relation to the strength of the case.

There is a reason it has been one setback after another, without exception, since she took the case. It isn't her fault. This case is a loser.

There is a reason she shifted her blood planting theory from being from the age of the blood to it being Avery's fresh blood recovered from his sink, and someone deposited into liquid form in a the vehicle nearby.

There is a reason her suspect has changed over and over, and that Avery's "memory" suddenly reveals some new angle to support that claim.

There is a reason she has repeatedly misrepresented her own witnesses and experts in this case.

She has done good things in the past, but this isn't.

 

[RANCH]

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but i don't think you really understand how Post Conviction exonerations are won.
Ms. Zellner is a very respected attorney in her field of expertise, and i don't question her expertise at all. She does a terrific job in obtaining justice, IMO.

The title of this thread is,"Steven Avery:Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder?" It is not about Zellener's quest for a post conviction exoneration.

 

[proudfootz]

Sure, if one's expectation is an air tight case. But reality is that convictions rely on the evidence available.

Not every case brought into court needs to result in a conviction.

Since we all have reasonable doubts about the prosecution's story, we all agree their work was sloppy and filled with mistakes, we have the option to find the defendant Not Guilty.

In order for Steven Avery not to have committed this crime, a conspiracy is needed involving a combo all or some of a half dozen separate law enforcements agencies, including the FBI, the victim's family, the defendants families, the defendants themselves, a tremendous list of ungodly coincidences and bad luck. All the evidence must be false, all the bad luck and coincidences must be merely that. And the defendants own contributions, including a long list of lies, must be explained. There is no way around it.

For Avery to have committed the crime, Steven Avery would have to have lied not having done so. That's it.

That is your view.

But as I have explained, the evidence seems to point the other way.

All that is required for Steven to have not committed crimes against Teresa is for him to be at home and puttering around his garage while whatever happened to her happened somewhere else.

Since there is zero evidence Teresa was ever harmed where Steven was, that is all that is required.

 

[proudfootz]

You haven't shown anything. You are claiming because they didn't just out claim there was a fire for no reason, that they didn't see it. It is a misrepresentation of the facts.

Because they didn't volunteer that they ate dinner, does that mean they didn't? It;s nonsense, I'm sorry.

No one was pursuing anything about a fire, because at that stage of the investigation, the relevance of the fire wasn't known.

Again, if you are claiming the fire was merely the result of mass inception, including the defendants who swore to it having happened, the family of the defendants as well, I'm checking out. It's ridiculous.

Again, multiple people supposedly observing a corpse being cremated in the yard just happen to 'not mention it' when asked about a missing person is a bit... farfetched.

MOO

 

[Boomstick]

BBM

I don't know what Steven wanted, and you don't know what he wanted.

We have to constrain ourselves to what he may have said.



If Steven did want to flee from police who had framed him once and stolen his life, so what?

I can hardly blame him.

But it's not 'evidence' of anything.

So these are the same two guys [Brendan and Bryan] whom you don't believe when they testify to facts that exculpate Steven.

See, the thing is, none of the things they say are actually exculpatory, other than Brendan claiming he was with Steven...... at a fire. Which the 2 of them originally lied about. Surely you see the concerns in putting any eggs in that basket.

 

[Karinna]

I think what KZ is doing factors into that though.
She has certainly brought some things to light that we wouldn't have known otherwise regarding Avery's guilt or not.

The title of this thread is,"Steven Avery:Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder?" It is not about Zellener's quest for a post conviction exoneration.