The “Undoing” of the Ramseys.

[MurriFlower]

Was there also no intention to sexually assault her?

If what I'm suggesting is correct and the plan was that she was to be tied, gagged and hidden in the house, in order to extort money from the Rs who believed she had been kidnapped, then the answer is no, the sexual assault occurred as part of the assault that led to her death and as such was unplanned or unintended.

From the information we have, I've suggested that it was more an act of violence than of lust.

 

[SunnieRN]

Sunnie, I'm not sure that anyone could believe all that. Not without an ulterior motive anyway!

Agreed Beck. And what I listed was only the tip of the iceberg. What happened prior to the lies told by the family from day 1. From that point forward, it only became more obvious!

 

[MurriFlower]

Wouldn't that have to be feed the pineapple, write the RN; kill JBR; 'undo' the crime?:seeya:

Well, RDI or IDI makes no difference to the pineapple, it was eaten one way or another, so no it's not part of the sequence.

 

[SunnieRN]

Well, RDI or IDI makes no difference to the pineapple, it was eaten one way or another, so no it's not part of the sequence.

Convenient. Just disregard the fact she ate pineapple at some point between returning home and being killed. The fact that you can even say it is not part of the sequence is truly amazing and backs up my earlier IDI point.

 

[twinkiesmom]

Well, RDI or IDI makes no difference to the pineapple, it was eaten one way or another, so no it's not part of the sequence.

It does make a difference if the parents claim she was asleep, not up snacking, and she's not tall enough to reach the bowl in question. Your intruder would have had to have fed her the pineapple, since no one in the house claims to have done it and it is in her stomach.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm playing devil's advocate here, because I believe the Ramseys were involved in their daughter's murder.

A disgruntled employee or former employee who heard about the size of JR's Christmas bonus might be angry about the amount. $118,000 may have been pocket change to someone like John Ramsey (as someone mentioned upthread), but for most people it's more than they make in a year. If they felt Ramsey didn't deserve that kind of money, that's something to be angry about.

Admittedly, the BPD botched key aspects of this case, but presumably they would have interviewed Ramsey's employees as a matter of course. If they found someone suspicious, we would probably know about it.

They interviewed John Merrick at length. I believe he was the one JR pointed a finger at right away. They were not able to link him to the crime. No match on the RN, etc.

 

[DeeDee249]

For what it's worth- This is all over the news here, but I don't know if that is the case all over the country.
A woman murdered her two teenage children in cold blood. She shot her son in the car when she picked him up from soccer. She then parked the car in the garage (where his body was found) as proceeded to shoot her daughter in the head as she sat at her computer.
She confessed to both killing. Her mother alerted police when she was unable to reach her daughter on the phone.
The woman claimed she was tired of her kids mouthing off.
Neighbors and friends were shocked, as there was no prior evidence of any violent behavior or any kind of problems within the family. They seemed like a normal, happy family.

Parents can and do kill their kids. Normal kids in normal homes. But in the case of JB, I believe more and more that this was either an accident covered up to look like a kidnap/murder or a coverup for another family member who killed her.

 

[wonderllama]

Yep, in the papers here in Oz too.

 

[joeskidbeck]

And this more than proves the point that these things happen in "good" families. Think about this. If a seemingly loving, well-off mother can snap and cold bloodedly shoot both her kids, how much more could another cover the accidental death of her daughter? Of all the excuses that IDIs come up with, this one makes me the craziest. NOBODY is immune to what the fates deal. Bank accounts and social standing can not stop fate.

 

[cynic]

Ok, just to clarify my bold above. What I meant was that it was unintentional, meaning the killing wasn't planned.
The person(s) intended only to "kidnap"; hide JBR in the house (crawl space?), tied and gagged; scare the heck out of JR (because he had already lost one daughter), get only the money they thought he owed them (thus the small amount).

Do you think that after getting into an extremely high risk criminal venture that it’s all worthwhile for a fraction of what may have been asked for?
You are saying that while the intent was only kidnapping, things went awry and JBR was accidently killed. Are you suggesting, then, that she was also accidently sexually assaulted?
This “intruder” needs to pick a crime and stick with it.

However, whatever motivated this, (the humiliation, disrespect, debt owed) had so burned in this person's gut for such a long time, that they had become unbalanced (helped by alcohol/drugs?) and something triggered the anger 'attack' on JBR.

I guess the possibility of a Ramsey being unbalanced is out of the question, though?

Anger that, once spent, turned to regret. How sad.

While true between individuals with an intimate connection, i.e. between a husband and wife, or between family members, it just doesn’t happen otherwise.
“Undoing” is not mentioned as ever occurring in any other setting by any profiler.

In addition to the numerous citations in my first post, I will give you one more:
Had there not been the documentary evidence to support John List’s involvement, the presentation of the crime scene still would have led us to conclude that the killer was a family member. The fact that the bodies were all laid out uniformly and placed in sleeping bags was a form of undoing, of placing the victims in a position of repose because the killer felt bad or uncomfortable about what he’d done. When we see a baby murdered, for example, if the body is just tossed in a trash Dumpster or left by the side of the road, the killer was probably a stranger. If, however, the child is wrapped up or otherwise “protected” and left in some orderly or dignified manner, then killer was probably a parent or close relative.
The Anatomy Of Motive, John Douglas, page 162

Not that I wish to tell you how to be an IDI proponent, but, those of us who have been around this and other forums for a while have seen that no one in the IDI camp admits that staging was present, and definitely never, under any circumstances, admits that any form of undoing was present.
The reason is simple, staging points to the Ramseys and undoing essentially confirms it.

 

[MurriFlower]

Not that I wish to tell you how to be an IDI proponent, but, those of us who have been around this and other forums for a while have seen that no one in the IDI camp admits that staging was present, and definitely never, under any circumstances, admits that any form of undoing was present.
The reason is simple, staging points to the Ramseys and undoing essentially confirms it.

Thanks cynic, without meaning to, you've helped me again. I have to consider that the (or one of the) IDI(s) was not only an intimate of JR, they also had a nurturing role with JBR - real or imagined.

 

[Tadpole12]

I'm enjoying your Stranger Intruder Theory, MF.
Nice change of pace.

Been a while since I've delved into those possibilities.


Stranger Intruder Theories.
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682510/Stranger-Intruder-Theories

.... and always stubling upon interesting, new to me, info .....
found this "message to" tangent quite interesting when it comes to all the perceivable interpretations of SBTC.
Evidence For Message to FBI Profilers Theory

• There are several "clues" in the Ransom Note that potentially have a connection to John Douglas, probably the nation's most visible and publicly recognizable profiler.

1. SBTC. In John Douglas's Mindhunter pages 137 -166 four killers are discussed in succession and in this order: Son of sam; BTK; Trailside killer; Carmine calabro; i.e., S.B.T.C (observed by Internet poster AntiK).
2. 118 may be based on number of victims in Sexual Homicides: Patterns and Motives "the" profiling handbook authored by John Douglas (observed by Internet poster Rainsong). This number is also mentioned in Mindhunter (observed by Internet poster AntiK).
3. But it may also refer to the length of Silence of the Lambs (118 minutes); John Douglas was the model for profiler Jack Crawford in this movie (observed by Internet poster Rainsong).
4. The writer of the ransom note switches from Mr. Ramsey to John, tells John "not to grow a brain" and that "it's up to you, John," messages that arguably could have been aimed at Douglas rather than Ramsey.

 

[SunnieRN]

Interesting theory, since the R's had mindhunter.

SBTC. Saved by the cross, popular chritian expression, early to mid 80's

SBTC. Subic bay training center

SBTC. Southern baptists of Texas convention

SBTC. Small business technology center

SBTC. Shall be the conquerer or conquered depending upon your preference.

There are a LOT of possibilities. I do not see anything in reference to Maxwell smart, or Get Smart.

Didn't the R's take a trip to Texas, with Patsy sporting a huge diamond and people stating JonBenet changed following the trip?

Lots more probable that it had something to do with TX than 'Get Smart'.

 

[MurriFlower]

Interesting theory, since the R's had mindhunter.

SBTC. Saved by the cross, popular chritian expression, early to mid 80's

SBTC. Subic bay training center

SBTC. Southern baptists of Texas convention

SBTC. Small business technology center

SBTC. Shall be the conquerer or conquered depending upon your preference.

There are a LOT of possibilities. I do not see anything in reference to Maxwell smart, or Get Smart.

Didn't the R's take a trip to Texas, with Patsy sporting a huge diamond and people stating JonBenet changed following the trip?

Lots more probable that it had something to do with TX than 'Get Smart'.

There's a bank in Boulder called the Colorado State Bank & Trust. Anyone know if it's known locally as the SBTC??

Edited to add: There's a State Bank & Trust Company in IA. http://sbtcompany.com/locations.aspx

 

[Toltec]

Interesting theory, since the R's had mindhunter.

SBTC. Saved by the cross, popular chritian expression, early to mid 80's

SBTC. Subic bay training center

SBTC. Southern baptists of Texas convention

SBTC. Small business technology center

SBTC. Shall be the conquerer or conquered depending upon your preference.

There are a LOT of possibilities. I do not see anything in reference to Maxwell smart, or Get Smart.

Didn't the R's take a trip to Texas, with Patsy sporting a huge diamond and people stating JonBenet changed following the trip?

Lots more probable that it had something to do with TX than 'Get Smart'.

DOI: Patsy: Of course, red represents our redemption through the shed blood of Christ.

Father Rol began reading from Isaiah 53. He explained to me that as Jesus Christ walked to Calvary he was lashed and beaten those Stripes on his back were for our sickness and healing.

Bind the sacrifices with Cord.

All this in her book Death of Innocence...

 

[Ames]

If what I'm suggesting is correct and the plan was that she was to be tied, gagged and hidden in the house, in order to extort money from the Rs who believed she had been kidnapped, then the answer is no, the sexual assault occurred as part of the assault that led to her death and as such was unplanned or unintended.

From the information we have, I've suggested that it was more an act of violence than of lust.

But why? Why hide her IN the house? Like I have stated a million times before, the front door sure was alot closer. So they are trying to extort money from JR....but they are too sweet to remove her from the house??? If you are an intruder, and this was your motive....wouldn't you just take her right out the front door, instead of going down to the basement, where you might be discovered???

 

[Ames]

Interesting theory, since the R's had mindhunter.

SBTC. Saved by the cross, popular chritian expression, early to mid 80's

SBTC. Subic bay training center

SBTC. Southern baptists of Texas convention

SBTC. Small business technology center

SBTC. Shall be the conquerer or conquered depending upon your preference.

There are a LOT of possibilities. I do not see anything in reference to Maxwell smart, or Get Smart.

Didn't the R's take a trip to Texas, with Patsy sporting a huge diamond and people stating JonBenet changed following the trip?

Lots more probable that it had something to do with TX than 'Get Smart'.

They lived in Atlanta before moving to Boulder...Southern Bell Telephone Company...is the co. used in the south. That used to be the company that we were with. But, I highly doubt that is where Patsy got the SBTC from, unless she had some old phone book lying around (where that is on the cover), which I doubt, since they lived in Colorado.

 

[SunnieRN]

That is brilliant Ames as she still had family and friends in the area! You may be on the way to a break through here!

 

[Ames]

That is brilliant Ames as she still had family and friends in the area! You may be on the way to a break through here!

Well, I know that when we moved to Montana, we took our South Carolina phone book with us, because it had the names and numbers of some important people that we might have had to contact, like Dr's for example. And you are right...friends and family. We did the same with the Montana phone book when we moved BACK to SC....we just brought it with us. The names, addresses, phone numbers for Dr.s, schools, friends... were listed, and we needed all of that each time we moved.

 

[MurriFlower]

But why? Why hide her IN the house? Like I have stated a million times before, the front door sure was alot closer. So they are trying to extort money from JR....but they are too sweet to remove her from the house??? If you are an intruder, and this was your motive....wouldn't you just take her right out the front door, instead of going down to the basement, where you might be discovered???

I've thought about that too. Why threaten to kidnap at all, if you are a pedophile and just want to kill her?

The only reason I can think of is that to have removed her from her home, even just to the back yard, would constitute 'kidnapping'. I'm thinking kidnapping is a BY FAR more serious crime than extortion (or threatening to kidnap).

They were VERY careful not to leave a trace so were obviously thinking about the consequences should something go wrong and they were caught. Makes you wonder, if they were familiar with law enforcement techniques as they said in the RN, they might also have been familar with the law and it's application. Perhaps they were jail buddies?