The 2nd Attack Theory: Forum Legend???

Discussion in 'Darlie Routier' started by beesy, Dec 23, 2005.

  1. beesy

    beesy myspace.com/beesy_boo

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    Court TV aired it's Forensic Files Invisible Intruder episode which is about Darlie. In it was presented the much discussed 2nd attack theory. Blood evidence was used to show how probable it was. The heavy amount of blood at the end of the knife shows someone bled onto it while holding it in a downward direction. Someone who was bleeding. Darlie was bleeding and it was Darlie's blood. Her blood was there in a pattern not indicative of having used it on someone, but of someone bleeding, holding it. She had already cut herself when she held the knife downwards. All she says is she picked up the knife off of the kitchen floor and put in on the counter. She would have had to stand there and hold it to bleed that heavily onto it. And there would have been large drops of blood on the floor there.
    An outline of the knife in blood(hers?) was found near Damon and there was evidence of her blood near him as well. She never mentioned taking the knife into the family room or over to Damon after she picked it up and put it on the counter. Conclusion: there is scientific evidence for the 2nd attack theory, very strong evidence.
    So again, the 2nd attack theory was not born on this forum by some crazed poster and believed blindly by millions who cannot think on their own. [​IMG]
     
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  3. cami

    cami Keep your fork......

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    This is a great post Bees.

    There was a heavy concentration of Darlie's blood by the sofa. Over yonder, Chewie wondered why Darlie stood there bleeding and if the heavy concentration had to do with a clean up. We know she stood there bleeding, we just don't know why. I know it was prior to the second attack on Damon however I am reluctant to speculate why.
     
  4. Jeana (DP)

    Jeana (DP) Former Member

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    I'm not! LOL I think she was trying to figure out what to do next. I think she did this without too much preplanning and things didn't go the way she thought they would and she had to figure out her next move.
     
  5. beesy

    beesy myspace.com/beesy_boo

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    Agreed, I'm not hestitant to ever speculate! And also agreed, I think she stood there bleeding, thinking what do I do? People who kill always seem suprised by the amount of blood and by the struggle the victim put up. Two sleeping children, in her fantasy, took seconds to kill. Didn't happen like that. Bevel also said that she didn't have to always be standing still for her blood to end up like that. It could have happened while she walking around, most likely to Damon and even when she plunged in the knife.
    They also mentioned the bloody outline of the knife(near Damon)
    as proof of the 2nd attack because her blood was in the outline as well. Again, we go back to her statement that the boys were attacked first. She never mentions taking the knife back into the family room, or that the killer dropped the knife near that area. Bevel originated the 2nd Attack Theory, did he not? From his interview, I know he believes in it. We do know one thing, it was not born on the forums!
     
  6. texassnuboots

    texassnuboots New Member

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    So, if I understand this correctly, Darlie stood in front of the sofa bleeding from the wound on her right arm onto the knife which she held in her right hand. She bled onto the handle of the knife, then the blood ran on downward to the blade of the knife and dropped off onto the carpet. Or the blood dropped from her hand and fingers onto the carpet. Either way there is a big old blood stain in front of the sofa in Darlie's blood and heavy bleeding onto the knife handle in Darlie's blood. If she was cleaning up she was using her left hand only, which means there could not have been much clean up, maybe with a towel to just wipe some of the blood off the sofa and/or coffee or end table. She wasn't really doing heavy cleaning like with windex or some sort of spray, just swiping at the blood with a towel. What would be the purpose of that? To keep her possessions (sofa, table) clean? Or, to make the obvious blood evidence fit the story she was creating? Thus, while she was standing there daydreaming, cleaning, planning, whatever, Damon crawled away. Then a knife outline is found on the carpet beside where Damon ended up dying. And Darlie's blood is on the outline. Damon's blood is found on the back of Darlie's nightshirt on top of Darlie's blood. That began the two-attack theory. Two attacks is the only way to explain the blood evidence. So it must be true. I accept it without reservation. Dang, how I wish that poor, poor child could have made it out the door, though I doubt he had the strength to open the front door.
     
  7. Goody

    Goody New Member

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    That is what I think happened. At some point she was trying to wipe up blood evidence she thought should not be where it was. She was trying to make the scene fit her story.

    In the kitchen, they said they used amido black and found clean up evidence on the floor where more blood dripped on top of the clean up area. They didn't use this evidence at trial. I don't know why unless they thought they didn't need it or that it left an area for the defense to attack, like maybe the cleaninglady used bleach that week bringing some question into the results of their testing. Whatever, it is obvious she was trying to hide something for some reason.

    At GAC a police detective talked to us about these types of crimes and said that often the defendant will start staging in one way, then change their direction or angle and create a different idea. So you have evidence of one thing starting,then abruptly stopping, and another starting up somewhere else. This could be what happened, too. She started cleaning up and quickly realized that it was futile because she just kept bleeding on what she was cleaning faster than she could clean it, so she abandoned the clean up and focused on a story that would include the blood evidence, finally resorting to cutting her throat to make her story believable. Apparently she thought no one would question a slit throat. Of course, her throat was only cut, it wasn't slit.
     
  8. Goody

    Goody New Member

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    Yes, I am impressed with your post, too. :clap:
     
  9. beesy

    beesy myspace.com/beesy_boo

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    I think she cleaned up in the kitchen because that is where she cut her throat(over the sink). She didn't come up with the story about wetting towels for the boys until her final walk-through with LE when she noticed they'd removed the kitchen sink. Suddenly she recalled standing at the sink wetting towels. She must have realized they somehow found the blood. I don't know if she knew about Luminol or the other things which can detect hidden blood. So in her original story, she was not at the sink. Even though the wound was very shallow, it would have bled alot. Most likely she felt she needed to clean up all of that blood, her blood, because originally she had no excuse for being over there.
    At some point she did put the knife on the counter. I don't know how long she would have run around with it. I think she had it at the sink with her when she realized Damon was alive and ran over there. People typically walk or run with the knife pointed downward which fits with her blood collecting onto the end of the knife. I guess she stood there over him, thinking about stabbing him again? Was the knife outline actually caused by her putting the knife down or was it formed from drops of blood coming off of the knife? If I understood Bevel correctly, it was caused by drops of her blood.
     
  10. texassnuboots

    texassnuboots New Member

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    This is great info, Goody. It can be applied to so many of the crimes we discuss on the boards. It seems the murderer's brain is so filled with external imaging and staging that it is practically impossible for the murderer to concentrate on one area for very long without being distracted to another area. It would take a really detail oriented person, almost obsessively detailed to get the evidence they want to produce and get it correctly. It's like the brain is on overload and prevents the murderer from forming logical thoughts and/or following through with a perfect crime facade. Glad you posted this. :)
     
  11. beesy

    beesy myspace.com/beesy_boo

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    Thank you girls, it's always nice to get a pat on the back from my more knowledgeable posters. [​IMG]
     
  12. Goody

    Goody New Member

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    Yes, I loved having that guy around, although he was cut a little rough around the edges and offended most others. hahahahahah. But this information was really good. His theory was that the diet pills Darlie was on had her so on edge she just lost it. He didn't feel she would ever do such a thing again or that she was a threat to society. I tend to agree with him. I think most people who commit these type of crimes are probably not likely to do it again unless there is some insanity involved.

    Speaking of how murderers think,isn't it strange how cops and attys, etc who commit murders screw up just like people who don't know anything about the law or how the system works. Murder is rather unique that way. I think the only people who get away with it are just plain lucky to get LEs who are distracted or untrained or lazy. There are just too many things an individual, no matter how knowledgable, can't control.
     
  13. Goody

    Goody New Member

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    \
    You betcha, kiddo. You sure have been a quick study. So feel free to strut your stuff.
     
  14. beesy

    beesy myspace.com/beesy_boo

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    Thank you love... [​IMG]
     
  15. Goody

    Goody New Member

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    I am glad to see someone out and about on the net tonight. I was beginning to feel like I was in an empty room. :laugh: My words were starting to echo as I typed.
     
  16. proadvocate

    proadvocate The Pro you love to hate most

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    The 2nd attack theory does carry some weight of possibility.But as of yet no one has properly explained Darlie's own injuries.Ok I know everyone will rush out with the "self inflicted"theories.I do hope however that those who rush them out will bother to admit the cut angles just do not match this theory.The Routier case is a tuff call for both sides.Those who would like to pronounce her guilt run into problems unexplainable by them,those who profess her innocence run into the few shreds of evidence which do sm to implicate her.However after careful study of her case I do find several things that fail to implicat her.

    1)her own injuries
    2)the timeline,bas upon the coroners estimated time of death etc,she had exactly 1 free minute to run plant the sock,cut the screen,cut herself,r the scene,then call 911
    3)the unexplained car which neighbors saw prowling the neighborhood for days prior to the killings
    4)the unsuponenaed witness who saw a man fitting Darlies description of the intruder fleeing the Routier property area shortly after the crime
    5)the blatant conflict of intrests on the part of her own defense attorney

    Eliminate these 5 points along with others I feel no need to type out and Darlie does appear guilty....but then if you eliminate the questions there is a strong possibility you eliminate her as a suspect...IMHO
     
  17. Goody

    Goody New Member

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    Good points. I will try to share some of my thoughts on it.
    1. Darlie's injuries....Speaking of the cut across her throat,it is a downward angle which is commonly found in self inflicted neck wounds. Another person making the cut generally cuts from ear to ear, not ear to breastbone.

    The cut on the shoulder was probably made at the time the cut to the neck was done. It is on the same exact angle as the cut to the neck.

    It is not that difficult to cut one's neck in the way she was cut. A sharp knife would glide easily and it could have been accomplished within seconds.

    The stab wound on the arm likely occured during the attacks on the boys. My guess is Devon since he appears to have fought back some.

    The bruises are the only injuries difficult to analyze in my opinion.

    If you throw out all the testimony of the medical people, you might believe they occurred the night of the attacks (as long as you don't look at the photos taken the day of the murders).

    If you consider what the medical staff said about there being no redness or bruising, no signs of injury there on her arms, and you consider the general evolvement of bruises, you almost have to admit they were probably done the night she got out of the hospital or the next day, which would have been the day before the photos at the police station were taken.

    Unfortunately, the photos at both sites for Darlie have been blown up sooooo much for effect that they are distorted. You can't really rely on colors, etc necessary to track the natural evolvement. It is a bit easier in MTJD by CWB, but still confusing to say the least. But look closely at her arms in the photos taken in the hospital the first day and then her arms in the police dept taken 4 days later. There is a photo of her laying in the bed with her arm extended on top of the sheet. Not a bit of redness on it. It is pinky white and looking good. For days later the backs of her hands are red, her wrists are red, and purple extends on the upper arms from elbow to armpit.

    It would be highly unlikely for those types of bruises not to show some sign of redness within the first few hours. Even the doctors say that. So did all the medical people at my hospital that I asked during my last hospital stay. While some of them didn't agree on the color change sequence, they all would expect to see some coloration within a short period after injury in those first few hours. So I am not surprised that Darlie's story was not believed.

    Another thing about the injuries, she received them all in specific areas of her body. There are no injuries to her face or chest or middrift. Some argue that she held her arms up protecting her face (not what she claimed in her hypnotic session of recovered memories though). But give her the benefit of the doubt and you still have an assailant who never missed his target except when he was cutting her throat. She put her arms up and he just stood there hitting her arms without trying to punch her in the head or stomach or even in the legs as she tried to kick him. It just doesn't add up. As bad as those bruises look in the pictures they show us, they do not compare well with what one would expect to find on a victim in a similar situation. Usually that is because the defendant is lying. The obvious conclusion is the bruises were created to mislead, probably after she was told by police that they noticed she didn't have any defense wounds. It was to late to cut herself anymore so the only thing she could do was bruise herself up where she thought they expected to see defense injuries...on the arms and hands.

    2. I don't know where you get the one minute theory from. I guess you are deducting the five and a half minute phone call from the 9 minute estimate of how long it would take Damon to die after receiving the FATAL stab wound. Trouble is, we don't really know exactly when that was, so theoretically he could have been injured minutes longer than the state's timeline.

    But assuming the timeline is right, and Darin was not involved in the crime or staging, it seems the only plausible steps she would have taken would have been to cut the screen before the attacks. It was just a step or two outside the sliding glass doors in the family room where the kids were murdered. She could have accomplished it easily in a minutes time or less. The run down the alley could have been accomplished in less than a minute. What was done in the house could have been accomplished in less than a minute. So what do you have? 2 minutes plus 5.5 (911 call) = 7.5 minutes. Personally, I think the state got the timeline wrong but we are working with the limitations you placed on it. In the end, it is plausible that their theory was correct.

    3. The car....it is nice to have all the answers at a trial, but no one has ever proved that the car had anything to do with the crime. A couple of guys gawking at some women preparing a garage sale is hardly suspicious. People parking to admire a water fountain, maybe because they had some time to kill, is not suspicious either. If this car had anything to do with the crime, it would indicate that more than one person was involved and when there is more than one person involved, you usually end up with loose lips sinking the ship. Not a soul has ever come forward, not even an old girlfriend of a ****, so I think the black car is just a bunch of smoke with no fire.

    4. The witness... I suppose you mean the people at Potter's field (my nickname for them). As I understand it, they lived 2 or 3 miles away and saw some kids parking in the vacant field, but I don't recall the descriptions as matching what Darlie said. I thought there were 4 of them.

    There was another a few blocks away and I believe she did testify for the defense. She said a couple of guys tried to break into her house that night but neither of them matched the description Darlie gave. I think there was also somej suspicion that she was not remembering the dates clearly. She was also on medication after a surgery, I believe, and watching a horror flick when she thought this happened. So it was enough to make your eyebrows shift but not enough to create any real reasonable doubt.

    5. The conflict of interest....that one had me going for awhile but in the end, Mulder was acting on Darlie's specific requests and an atty is allowed to do that. As long as she was insisting Darin definitely did not do it and that she did not want him pursued as an alternative suspect, his hands were tied. I don't think the brief period he represented Darlie Kee and Darin before he took on Darlie's case rises to the level of a conflict, but I am anxious to see how the federal CCA rules on it.

    So how did I do?
     
  18. beesy

    beesy myspace.com/beesy_boo

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    I'm around, don't worry, I wouldn't leave my Goody :blowkiss:
     
  19. cami

    cami Keep your fork......

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    That knife was laid on the carpet for some reason. There is an outline of it in blood. It brings to mind the awful picture of her putting it down to corral Damon, to stop him maybe.
     
  20. cami

    cami Keep your fork......

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    I disagree, I do believe the cut angles indicate self-infliction. I believe she should have horizontal slash marks on the underside of her arms if she was warding off a knife, not vertical slashes to her forearms. Her hands, fingers, palms, etc., should all be slashed and cut. I believe our first instinct would be to throw up the arms in front of the face and head to protect them. It's also to try and grab the knife. She should also have a broken bone or two if her arms were subject to blunt force trauma. No head injuries, no facial injuries, injuries all to the front of her body. I don't believe she fought with anyone but Devon.


    MOO
     
  21. beesy

    beesy myspace.com/beesy_boo

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