The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18

[HarmonyE.]

Lets not forget that 2 hours were cut out, and according to Lin Wood it was due to legal threats he made against Kolar.

I want to see those two hours.

I'm calling BS on Lin Wood's claim that he was the one who got those 2 hours cut. They all said they thought BDI on national TV! My own guess is that CBS thought the 6 hours was too much and I suspect the edited-out material will appear on a DVD or streaming provider.

 

[Tortoise]

There is no reason to believe these parents harmed their daughter when she was alive or dead. I find it absurd to think they garroted her and then wrapped her in a blanket after cleaning her up and changing her clothes.

Cathching up with the thread so I don't know if this has already been replied to. Her clothes were not changed after she died. The underwear and the leggings were urine stained, to the front, suggesting she was lying on her front when she urinated. My guess is she emptied her bladder when she either fell unconscious, or when she died.

 

[apabld]

Just finished watching and thought they did a really good, thorough job. I was falling deeper into BDI territory and I think the show just cemented that.

Keep in mind: don't base your opinion on just one show. Even though BDI is very likely, that might not mean it is the definitive answer. It's still possible that John or Patsy or heck, even an intruder did it.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I agree. Let's just hope Burke, being the out and about, free person that he is now, does not get set off by someone else. Surely, JR provides 24 hour supervision.

History tells us most kids who kill around Burke's age do not turn out to be adult murderers.

But 24 hour supervision may not be far from the truth. Man, Burke is as stunted as they come. He behaves and looks like a teenager even though he's a few months away from 30.

 

[MaryMac250]

Perhaps BR didn't move the body and JBR was wherever BR hit her on the head and wherever that was i don't know. He could easily have got one of his train tracks from where they were to see if he could wake JBR up.

O.K., all good questions. They all kinda beg the big question, where did this happen, as you suggest. If it happened in the kitchen, why go all the way down to the basement to get a piece of train track to poke her with? Lots of things in the kitchen to do that. Now, if it happened in the basement close to the train room, I can see that. I agree, I don't think Burke moved the body...unless it happened in the basement and he dragged her across the floor. Iircc, when JR brought the body upstairs, the arms were stretched out above the head?

 

[TeaTime]

In another case I remember someone said that our fingernails will continue to grow some even after heart stops. Same with hair I believe.

Does a body involuntarily digest food for a little bit after the heart stops?
If so, do we know how long a body may continue to digest?

No. Neither fingernails nor hair continue to grow after death. As the skin loses it's elasticity and dries it gives an illusion that the these things have grown but actually it is the skin receding. The head blow rendered her brain dead but her heart would continue to beat and she would continue to breathe albeit faint, slow and shallow. It is estimated that there was 45 minutes to 2 hours before the garrote was applied, ending her life. During that time, her body would continue its involuntary actions, such as digestion. We give brain dead people feeding tubes to continue to nourish their bodies, so we know that digestion continues even when the brain is not working.

 

[Hatfield]

I want to see those two hours.

I'm calling BS on Lin Wood's claim that he was the one who got those 2 hours cut. They all said they thought BDI on national TV! My own guess is that CBS thought the 6 hours was too much and I suspect the edited-out material will appear on a DVD or streaming provider.

Thanks for pointing out that two hours was not shown. I had no idea about the not shown footage. I too now want to see those missing two hours of footage. I hope CBS puts it out at some point. They could put it on their CBS All-Access and be able to make some money off of it.

The CBS show was by far the best show I have seen so far. It was refreshing to see a show where they did not try to protect any of the Rs if the evidence pointed towards them.

 

[Frigga]

My brother and I were watching the second part, didn't get to finish yet...but one thing that we started discussing is, if your nearly 10 year old son did this, how do you go on living with him without some level of fear? My brothers were all bigger than my mom by the time they were 12. If I thought my son was a killer, living with him would be very frightening IMO, regardless of my level of love for him.

I agree but families live like this all the time.

The show last night reminded me of a mother in my support group, ironically from when we lived in Boulder. Before we moved I had been in a specific support group for Down syndrome families when we were in California. Soon after we moved to Boulder (my husband was in his PostDoc at NCAR) I found a local support group for parents of children with special needs in general- there was no Down syndrome only group because it was such a small community compared to our city in California. Most of the other parents had children with autism- it was very sobering to me.

Anyway one night it was a "moms night out" event at a local restaurant for dinner. Only four of us showed up- which was actually a gift because we really got the chance to talk in depth and get to know each other. The three other moms all had young children with autism. I'll never forget the one mother who was very proactive and searching for answers for her son- looking at his diet, treatment modalities that were new or unconventional- she was desperate. She was a very smart, strong, no nonsense woman- she was a very successful attorney and was at her wits end.

She told a story directed towards me after I talked about how loving and gentle my son was. She told me how lucky I was that he showed affection to me (while the other women nodded profusely). I was trying to find goodness in her experience when she became very agitated and frank- she said not only did her young son (4) not hug her or kiss her but she recounted a story of gardening in her backyard roses where she was digging in the ground and her son (unbeknownst to her) picked up a brick and smashed her on the head. Her anger and hurt was palatable.

I left that dinner feeling so grateful for my son, his diagnosis and all of the joy and happiness he brought to our lives. I left there realizing that autism is a very different animal then other disabilities and there are very different behaviors and experiences across the board with a diagnosis of autism- like any disability really- even for typical folks... but I left there feeling grateful for my sons ability to show me love and affection- in spades.

 

[merribe]

I want to see those two hours.

I'm calling BS on Lin Wood's claim that he was the one who got those 2 hours cut. They all said they thought BDI on national TV! My own guess is that CBS thought the 6 hours was too much and I suspect the edited-out material will appear on a DVD or streaming provider.

I think it was possible there was material in there they were wary of releasing or became wary of (perhaps due to Lin Wood but would rather not "credit" him with that) but that might have explained certain things that are being questioned, but they decided to pull back. It is also possible that they thought the "market" of coverage on JonBenet was oversaturated. I hope they release it!

 

[rojamom]

I'm going through the thread now on last night's show (great posts, everyone!). I haven't gotten through all posts yet, so please excuse this if someone has already addressed this. My questions are about the whole sexual abuse thing that was covered last night, so I need some help from one of the Websleuth experts to help me understand this.

When I watched the show last night I was also in the chat room at the same time, and I think I initially misinterpreted what Spitz and Lee were saying. I'd *originally* thought they were say that after Spitz examined the microscope slide, he concluded that there was no evidence of *prior* sexual abuse before JonBenet's death. But when I went back later and rewatched this segment, I think I got that wrong and what Spitz and Lee were actually saying was that there was no evidence of sexual abuse/sexual trauma/sexual intrusion (whatever words you want to use) ON THE NIGHT she was killed. Do I have that right? (If so, my apologies to bubbiegirl because in the chat room I told her the opposite!)

So if I have that right, can fellow WS members help me with the following questions:

1. Am I correct that the experts *never* addressed on the show last night whether or not there was evidence of ongoing, recurring sexual abuse happening prior to the night JonBenet was killed?

2. If they are saying there was no sexual intrusion the night she was killed, where did the blood in JBR's underwear come from? (Kolar asks this as well on the show and I felt he wasn't given a very convincing answer). And as other posters have already stated, this was a fresh pair of underwear she was put in, so a prior pair of undies might have had even more blood on it. Plus, am I remembering correctly that the smear on JBR's thigh (which was found during the autopsy) was actually determined to be JBR's own blood that had been wiped away by something (a cloth or whatever)? So if no sexual intrusion that night (made by a paint brush or some other object), where did this blood come from?

3. If the experts last night are saying no sexual abuse the night she was killed, then how do they explain the inflamation and blood in the vaginal vault that was found and documented in the autopsy?

Thanks in advance for anyone's help in making sense of this for me!

 

[Tortoise]

Maybe at the time, but i think he might of paid the consequences as an adult if he has a conscience? Knowing his anger/jealousy killed his sister. How would you live with that?

It depends on whether there is an antisocial/sociopathic personality disorder present. He may not feel guilt, especially if he hasn't had to face any consequences. His behaviour was 'enabled' by the parent's cover up, and therefore he had no reason to address anything - they said for him that he loved his sister etc.

 

[Sphinx]

Wow! He is STILL at it! Good Lord, Lin. Is he going to sue all of use next? Apparently he is going to take down everyone involved plus CBS itself. Good luck on that one, dude.

Probably just grandstanding. IMO

 

[minazoe]

This is my theory too!

 

[wildebeest]

Until someone else comes into the picture he is jealous of ....

Why haven't we heard of ANYONE who knows or has been acquainted with BR?

The silence is stunning!!!

IMHO

 

[leelee114]

I know you believe that and I respect your viewpoint even though I do not agree with it.

Touch DNA has long been proved as credible for many years and suspects have been arrested and convicted when touch DNA evidence was left behind. The touch DNA held up on appeals as well.

I haven't seen any proof this was transference. It is very consistent with it belonging to the murderer of JB especially the specific locations where the same male DNA was found on her garments.

But the thing is given the totality of the evidence additional DNA does not rule out the Ramsey's. All it does is potentially add a person we are unaware of.There is too much that points directly to Ramsey involvement. A random person did not lurk in their home, fix their child a snack, find a note pad, practice a ransom note, write a final ransom note, whack JB on the head, strangle her, violate her with her mother's paintbrush,undress her, clean her off, decide hey these underwear won't do let me ramble around and find a new pair,redress her, stick her in a room and leave.

Innocent parents don't lie through their teeth like the Ramsey's did. Especially about simple things like whether she was awake when they got home or not. These people lied over and over again and it wasn't because it was a favorite family pastime.

If the killer was as concerned with leaving evidence behind as the obvious Ramsey staging wants us to believe the biggest piece of evidence of all would not be left behind. That evidence would be JonBenét herself. A random killer would have gotten that body out and made sure it was never found. Sometimes I think the Ramsey's were going to sneak her out but they soon realized that wouldn't be possible hence John "found her".Other times I think despite their many failings and what the need to protect Burke had already driven them to, they simply couldn't toss her out like trash. As we know "proper burial" was likely a big thing to Patsy.

 

[Hatfield]

I'm going through the thread now on last night's show (great posts, everyone!). I haven't gotten through all posts yet, so please excuse this if someone has already addressed this. My questions are about the whole sexual abuse thing that was covered last night, so I need some help from one of the Websleuth experts to help me understand this.

When I watched the show last night I was also in the chat room at the same time, and I think I initially misinterpreted what Spitz and Lee were saying. I'd *originally* thought they were say that after Spitz examined the microscope slide, he concluded that there was no evidence of *prior* sexual abuse before JonBenet's death. But when I went back later and rewatched this segment, I think I got that wrong and what Spitz and Lee were actually saying was that there was no evidence of sexual abuse/sexual trauma/sexual intrusion (whatever words you want to use) ON THE NIGHT she was killed. Do I have that right? (If so, my apologies to bubbiegirl because in the chat room I told her the opposite!)

So if I have that right, can fellow WS members help me with the following questions:

1. Am I correct that the experts *never* addressed on the show last night whether or not there was evidence of ongoing, recurring sexual abuse happening prior to the night JonBenet was killed?

2. If they are saying there was no sexual intrusion the night she was killed, where did the blood in JBR's underwear come from? (Kolar asks this as well on the show and I felt he wasn't given a very convincing answer). And as other posters have already stated, this was a fresh pair of underwear she was put in, so a prior pair of undies might have had even more blood on it. Plus, am I remembering correctly that the smear on JBR's thigh (which was found during the autopsy) was actually determined to be JBR's own blood that had been wiped away by something (a cloth or whatever)? So if no sexual intrusion that night (made by a paint brush or some other object), where did this blood come from?

3. If the experts last night are saying no sexual abuse the night she was killed, then how do they explain the inflamation and blood in the vaginal vault that was found and documented in the autopsy?

Thanks in advance for anyone's help in making sense of this for me!

Good questions and I will let others more experienced with this case try to answer for you but I do want to point out one thing that dawned on me since the alleged sexual abuse has been made such a big deal of in the media.

IMO, the main thing to me about the alleged sexual abuse:
It does not fit in with the ransom letter or staging of JBR body to make it look like a kidnapping.

So what this tells me is if there was any evidence of sexual abuse then it was either due to the killer doing it before or after the murder or some sort of prior sexual abuse from a family member. I dont think the stagers of the body did it. It would not make sense to add that in. The letter just involves taking her for money.

 

[lonetraveler]

Thanks for pointing out that two hours was not shown. I had no idea about the not shown footage. I too now want to see those missing two hours of footage. I hope CBS puts it out at some point. They could put it on their CBS All-Access and be able to make some money off of it.

The CBS show was by far the best show I have seen so far. It was refreshing to see a show where they did not try to protect any of the Rs if the evidence pointed towards them.

I'm so frustrated that I could not view the CBS show. Does anyone know how I can view it now?

 

[minazoe]

The brother is almost exactly like Adam Lanza in mannerism, eyes, affect and what appears to be a highly psychotic personality to the degree of being almost demonic.

View attachment 101685


View attachment 101686


Those eyes are what I call helter-skelter eyes. Manson also has them - they're all over the place in searching, wide and crazed.

BR's eyes are also thick, red and bulging suggesting that he's on a full range of medication for what was probably diagnosed as a autistic spectrum disorder, maybe *Asperger's*. My feeling is that there is much more underneath this individual's psyche that would be important to peel back. Where does he live? Where did he go to school? Where is the father in all of this? More information on his early childhood but even more interesting to know is what kind of mental illness or criminality runs in both parents' families? My feeling is that this type of individual has appeared in one form or another throughout the generations, same affect, same detachment to reality.

This is truly creepy...shudder....

 

[andreww]

Yeah, he's fine. He just got on with his life. You kidding me?

Have you heard of any problems with Burke? He's got University education, a job, place to live, and has managed to stay clear of the law for 20 years. You may not like his F-ed up smile but he's doing better that 90% of kids in America right now.

 

[andreww]

Why haven't we heard of ANYONE who knows or has been acquainted with BR?

The silence is stunning!!!

IMHO

Why would you hear anything? Maybe he's a good kid and his friends are loyal.