The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18

[Tortoise]

I'm going through the thread now on last night's show (great posts, everyone!). I haven't gotten through all posts yet, so please excuse this if someone has already addressed this. My questions are about the whole sexual abuse thing that was covered last night, so I need some help from one of the Websleuth experts to help me understand this.

When I watched the show last night I was also in the chat room at the same time, and I think I initially misinterpreted what Spitz and Lee were saying. I'd *originally* thought they were say that after Spitz examined the microscope slide, he concluded that there was no evidence of *prior* sexual abuse before JonBenet's death. But when I went back later and rewatched this segment, I think I got that wrong and what Spitz and Lee were actually saying was that there was no evidence of sexual abuse/sexual trauma/sexual intrusion (whatever words you want to use) ON THE NIGHT she was killed. Do I have that right? (If so, my apologies to bubbiegirl because in the chat room I told her the opposite!)

So if I have that right, can fellow WS members help me with the following questions:

1. Am I correct that the experts *never* addressed on the show last night whether or not there was evidence of ongoing, recurring sexual abuse happening prior to the night JonBenet was killed?

2. If they are saying there was no sexual intrusion the night she was killed, where did the blood in JBR's underwear come from? (Kolar asks this as well on the show and I felt he wasn't given a very convincing answer). And as other posters have already stated, this was a fresh pair of underwear she was put in, so a prior pair of undies might have had even more blood on it. Plus, am I remembering correctly that the smear on JBR's thigh (which was found during the autopsy) was actually determined to be JBR's own blood that had been wiped away by something (a cloth or whatever)? So if no sexual intrusion that night (made by a paint brush or some other object), where did this blood come from?

3. If the experts last night are saying no sexual abuse the night she was killed, then how do they explain the inflamation and blood in the vaginal vault that was found and documented in the autopsy?

Thanks in advance for anyone's help in making sense of this for me!

My memory of it is they didn't deal with prior sexual intrusion at all and dismissed evidence of a sexual assault on the night of her death, and said the miniscule wood chip could have got there from transference ie. from the blanket and movement of her body upstairs. Seems very unlikely to me, it was inside her I believe. They didn't deal with the blood smearing on her legs, I only recall them talking about the blood in her underwear. I don't think this portion of the show was at all convincing, and my overall impression was that if an assault had occurred that night they thought it wasn't a killing with a truly sexual motive, but staging of an intruder.

 

[lonetraveler]

I've always had the view that this crime was staged and a major cover-up was put into place to protect a member of the family. I've held the belief that it was PR who killed JB but the recent interviews with BR are making me think otherwise. This said, I have always been surprised that PR did not give a death bed confession that she was responsible for JB's death in order to take suspicion away from her son. Or, to clear her own conscience before she died. The fact that she did not do this prior to her death intrigues me. I can't help but wonder if it is because neither she nor BR were responsible for JB's death and she absolutely refused to take the blame if JR was the responsible party.

 

[Hatfield]

I'm so frustrated that I could not view the CBS show. Does anyone know how I can view it now?

Some people will sometimes post Youtube videos of parts of it on youtube so you may try searching youtube for that today. Probably wont be the whole episode but you may get lucky there.

The only other way I can think of is you may try to see if "CBS All-Access" is going to carry it. If they have it on there, you have to subscribe to it to get internet streaming download of it. Its pretty cheap per month and you could always cancel once you view what you need. I am not sure if CBS All-access has it but CBS has websites about it and you should be able to find out before you subscribe if that episode is availlable there.

 

[andreww]

I want to see those two hours.

I'm calling BS on Lin Wood's claim that he was the one who got those 2 hours cut. They all said they thought BDI on national TV! My own guess is that CBS thought the 6 hours was too much and I suspect the edited-out material will appear on a DVD or streaming provider.

Don't under estimate Lin Wood. When he says jump, people tend to listen to him, Alex Hunter and Mary Lacy to name a few. And ask the National Enquirer or any of the other tabloids he sued if they wished they'd heeded LWs warnings.

 

[tweezybird]

No i don't think so.

My understanding is that he works from home (Dr. Phil) in computers, somewhere in Indianapolis.

 

[chlban]

Yes, and they wouldn't have left BR ALONE in a bedroom if they thought there had been an intruder.

Or let him out of their sight to go with Fleet White that morning. I can see wanting to shield him (if he was innocent) from some of what was going on, but I would have a hard time letting my remaining child out of my sight, much less the house. I think I would ask a trusted friend to maybe take him upstairs or away from the commotion and stay with him. That would be when the house was full of friends and LE and even then it would be difficult.

 

[Deleted member 172065]

But the thing is given the totality of the evidence additional DNA does not rule out the Ramsey's. All it does is potentially add a person we are unaware of.There is too much that points directly to Ramsey involvement. A random person did not lurk in their home, fix their child a snack, find a note pad, practice a ransom note, write a final ransom note, whack JB on the head, strangle her, violate her with her mother's paintbrush,undress her, clean her off, decide hey these underwear won't do let me ramble around and find a new pair,redress her, stick her in a room and leave.

Innocent parents don't lie through their teeth like the Ramsey's did. Especially about simple things like whether she was awake when they got home or not. These people lied over and over again and it wasn't because it was a favorite family pastime.

If the killer was as concerned with leaving evidence behind as the obvious Ramsey staging wants us to believe the biggest piece of evidence of all would not be left behind. That evidence would be JonBenét herself. A random killer would have gotten that body out and made sure it was never found. Sometimes I think the Ramsey's were going to sneak her out but they soon realized that wouldn't be possible hence John "found her".Other times I think despite their many failings and what the need to protect Burke had already driven them to, they simply couldn't toss her out like trash. As we know "proper burial" was likely a big thing to Patsy.

Yes, and someone said the Ramsey's wouldn't leave BR in a bedroom by himself if they thought there was a real abductor. They'd keep him ((BR) within eyesight until the police came to search the place. After all, we know the 'abductor' was in no hurry to leave (3 page letter). And it was a so-called 'foreign faction' so more than one is implied.

 

[Deleted member 172065]

Btw, where were the grandparents?

 

[andreww]

I've always had the view that this crime was staged and a major cover-up was put into place to protect a member of the family. I've held the belief that it was PR who killed JB but the recent interviews with BR are making me think otherwise. This said, I have always been surprised that PR did not give a death bed confession that she was responsible for JB's death in order to take suspicion away from her son. Or, to clear her own conscience before she died. The fact that she did not do this prior to her death intrigues me. I can't help but wonder if it is because neither she nor BR were responsible for JB's death and she absolutely refused to take the blame if JR was the responsible party.

Why would she do that? Nobody was seriously considering Burke back then. A deathbed confession would only have confirmed what many of us have known all along, that the Ramseys were full of $hit since day one.

 

[Hatfield]

Why haven't we heard of ANYONE who knows or has been acquainted with BR?

The silence is stunning!!!

IMHO

I think JR has kept the boy sheltered his whole adult life. I think the boy lives a recluse life being sheltered from most people. I also think BR likes to be alone and does not want or need others in his life. He is a true loner who likes to be alone. JMO of course.

I think that would explain why there are no real other friends for BR. They dont exist.

No girlfriends that I am aware of unless someone knows of any.

 

[Boodles]

Plus people who would have possibly gone easy on him because he was a small child back when it happened are no longer going to go easy on him since he is now an adult. The whole thing would have been so much better for everyone if the truth had been told back when it happened. Sure he had a normalish life until now, but look what he's going through now! He could be totally anonymous if they'd admitted it and gotten him help back then.

It's ironic in that (if the CBS scenario is true) if the family did what they did to avoid stigma, for BR, themselves or all of them, it failed. And the stigma that continues is far worse than it would have been if they had been honest. But I can see wanting to protect your child. If BDI, I wonder if he ever wants to confess but can't because of pride and pressure from JR. I don't think I could stand the burden of carrying such a lie forever.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

:seeya:

Just "subscribing" to this thread.

:tyou:

 

[Sphinx]

O.K., all good questions. They all kinda beg the big question, where did this happen, as you suggest. If it happened in the kitchen, why go all the way down to the basement to get a piece of train track to poke her with? Lots of things in the kitchen to do that. Now, if it happened in the basement close to the train room, I can see that. I agree, I don't think Burke moved the body...unless it happened in the basement and he dragged her across the floor. Iircc, when JR brought the body upstairs, the arms were stretched out above the head?

Good point about the arms being in that position after death. That probably means that if the parents staged it, they found JBR before rigormortis set in, and they were able to position the body, with the arms tied above the head. I think maybe the investigators on CBS were correct that JBR might have taken a piece of Burke's pineapple, and he could have chased her with the flashlight. JBR would be afraid, and might have run down the basement stairs. In early reports back in 1996 didn't a neighbour say she heard a blood curdling scream around midnight ? Could that have been when BR hit her on the back of the head, or when she saw him coming and tried to run and get away ? Likely the parents heard it too, and were on the scene quickly, but too late. If they sent BR away, while they tried to help JBR, then realized it was hopeless, that could account for him being heard on the 911 phone call saying, " What did you find ? " He could have tried to say when they found him that he did not do it, and was looking for her too. Psychopaths lie by nature, and they always act in their own best interests. IMO

 

[rojamom]

My memory of it is they didn't deal with prior sexual intrusion at all and dismissed evidence of a sexual assault on the night of her death, and said the miniscule wood chip could have got there from transference ie. from the blanket and movement of her body upstairs. Seems very unlikely to me, it was inside her I believe. They didn't deal with the blood smearing on her legs, I only recall them talking about the blood in her underwear. I don't think this portion of the show was at all convincing, and my overall impression was that if an assault had occurred that night they thought it wasn't a killing with a truly sexual motive, but staging of an intruder.

Thanks, Tortoise! These are my thoughts as well -- although I found most of the show to be extremely well done, this segment was not convincing to me and left unanswered questions that failed to jive with my understanding at least of this portion of the evidence. Perhaps there was a much longer discussion of the whole sexual abuse angle (including whether or not the evidence points to prior sexual injury in the weeks/months leading up to JBR's death), but this was part of the 2 hours that was cut from the show?

 

[andreww]

I think JR has kept the boy sheltered his whole adult life. I think the boy lives a recluse life being sheltered from most people. I also think BR likes to be alone and does not want or need others in his life. He is a true loner who likes to be alone. JMO of course.

I think that would explain why there are no real other friends for BR. They dont exist.

No girlfriends that I am aware of unless someone knows of any.

There was a blonde girl that he was photographed with ant Patsy's funeral and several times after.

 

[Tortoise]

I am stuck with the likeness between the cord around JonBenet's neck and the cord around the neck of the doll she received for Christmas, tied at the back. It was a doll that had been manufactured to look like JonBenet, from photographs, and she didn't like it. The cord around the neck was to secure the head in place.

It's always seemed like a really relevant detail and important clue to me. Maybe JonBenet was being made to look exactly like her identical doll by her brother?

Some of you may recall a duplicate of the doll was ordered by someone to be delivered to JR's work place around about the new year.

 

[johnjay]

Why haven't we heard of ANYONE who knows or has been acquainted with BR?

The silence is stunning!!!

IMHO

Yes, you'd think the girlfriend would want to say a few words about how wonderful he is.

 

[shanaya]

How do you know this?

 

[rojamom]

I'm so frustrated that I could not view the CBS show. Does anyone know how I can view it now?

Lonetraveler - I have DirectTV, and CBS On Demand has it available now for free! If your dable/TV provider has CBS On Demand, look for it there!

 

[Tortoise]

I think JR has kept the boy sheltered his whole adult life. I think the boy lives a recluse life being sheltered from most people. I also think BR likes to be alone and does not want or need others in his life. He is a true loner who likes to be alone. JMO of course.

I think that would explain why there are no real other friends for BR. They dont exist.

No girlfriends that I am aware of unless someone knows of any.

Funny enough I saw a photograph of him in a newspaper with a girl who was purported to be his girlfriend, only yesterday I think. It could have been an old article, not sure.