The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18

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Certainly possible. One of the shocking elements of last night's special to me was how pitch black it was in that room without the lights. We've debated before about whether light could enter that room enough to see the body, and FW has been implicated based on that. But the reconstruction of the house proved so beneficial here to prove that no one would have noticed that body without the lights being on unless you already knew it was there​.

the detective saying JR made a beeline for the basement. When the entire house is available to search for where the body might be. That was not just a lucky guess JR went down there.
 
Quick question for the experts here. Opinions welcome.

I have always felt that PR had plans to remove the body. I am not sure when JR became involved with helping with the coverup so just talking about PR since most think she wrote the letter. I think JR getting the plane ready may have been how they were going to get rid of the body completely out of the state. I think they were going to carry body out maybe in suitcase and get it on that plane to dispose out of state.

Regardless of JR involvment.
Question is

Do people think PR original plan was to get rid of the body so that it always remained a mystery what happened to JBR?
 
I don't think they ever had plans to get rid of the body. PR would never have allowed that. She must have wanted JBR buried in her fine clothes and pageant tiara with a proper funeral. It was even stated in the ransom note if they didn't comply, they would be denied her body for a proper burial, so that was something important to her. It had to be planned in some scenario where they body would be found.

I believe the body wasn't found immediately when the police showed up, and JR moved her during the time he went missing for an hour and a half that morning. It's too coincidental he happened to find her with relative ease once he was given the go ahead to search from Det. Arndt.
 
I am stuck with the likeness between the cord around JonBenet's neck and the cord around the neck of the doll she received for Christmas, tied at the back. It was a doll that had been manufactured to look like JonBenet, from photographs, and she didn't like it. The cord around the neck was to secure the head in place.

It's always seemed like a really relevant detail and important clue to me. Maybe JonBenet was being made to look exactly like her identical doll by her brother?

Some of you may recall a duplicate of the doll was ordered by someone to be delivered to JR's work place around about the new year.

I'm so confused about the dolls. I thought JBR received a My Twinn doll on Christmas. Those dolls did not have the neck cord.

The doll delivered to Access Graphics after JBR's death was an American Girl doll. That's the doll with the neck cord. Maybe JBR already had an American Girl doll, but the one she got on 12/25/1996 was a My Twinn doll, I'm pretty sure.
 
I watched part 2 this morning. You know, I read Kohler's book Foreign Faction, and was very impressed with his theory. I felt like I got clearer picture of the historical facts and a new interpretation of the evidence. But I still had a hard time believing BDI. I know a lot of ppl here had already connected the dots that led to BDI, and presented their thoughts as to why. But still I couldn't go there.

But now I must admit that it makes sense. How else could the Ramsey's be so convincing, and how else would none of their closest friends betray them after all these years? It makes sense. how else did they never crack, turn on each other? Take it to the grave.

What is it that they say? The clean get cleaner and the dirtier get dirtier? Only one person is getting dirtier.
 
What about the older children from John's first marriage? Have they ever been interviewed? What do they think of Burke? What did they, as nearly adults, think about the entire thing at the time?

I read that JR hired attorneys for his two older children, as well as for his first wife... Who does this??

I also believe in Kolar's book that John Andrew (the elder son) stated that the killer deserved "forgiveness" for the crime on his younger half-sister when making initial statements to police.

If I remember correctly, Melinda is now a nurse, married to a doctor... Perhaps I get this from Kolar's book, also. Seems like anyone in this family would care about Jonbenet??????
 
I think Kolar looked uncomfortable mostly and sometimes very uncomfortable, and I don't blame him as the CBS production is astonishingly provocative. They must be hoping legal action will be taken.

James is still in LE- they can screw with him- we've all seen it. Just sayin'.
 
I don't think they ever had plans to get rid of the body. PR would never have allowed that. She must have wanted JBR buried in her fine clothes and pageant tiara with a proper funeral. It was even stated in the ransom note if they didn't comply, they would be denied her body for a proper burial, so that was something important to her. It had to be planned in some scenario where they body would be found.

I believe the body wasn't found immediately when the police showed up, and JR moved her during the time he went missing for an hour and a half that morning. It's too coincidental he happened to find her with relative ease once he was given the go ahead to search from Det. Arndt.

Good points. Most parents would want a normal buriel no matter the circumstances of a close family members death.

Very good point about that.
Wonder if JR then could have been thinking more about not getting caught and maybe it was him that was insisting on removing the body at first but then he realized PR would never allow that and maybe that is why it became sloppy near the end as JR had to "find her" or someone else had to find her. It could explain some of the sloppiness with the coverup.
 
I watched part 2 this morning. You know, I read Kohler's book Foreign Faction, and was very impressed with his theory. I felt like I got clearer picture of the historical facts and a new interpretation of the evidence. But I still had a hard time believing BDI. I know a lot of ppl here had already connected the dots that led to BDI, and presented their thoughts as to why. But still I couldn't go there.

But now I must admit that it makes sense. How else could the Ramsey's be so convincing, and how else would none of their closest friends betray them after all these years? It makes sense. how else did they never crack, turn on each other? Take it to the grave.

What is it that they say? The clean get cleaner and the dirtier get dirtier? Only one person is getting dirtier.

This is exactly where I am at right now, YouWho. Exactly. That saying is spot on. The more time this case has to breathe, the more that it is investigated, the more that comes to light, the actual injury(ies) causing JBR's death point further away from PR and JR and more at BR. I don't think I would have gotten fully there without the Dr Phil special and the release of more details about BR's behavior and childhood interviews.
 
Quick question for the experts here. Opinions welcome.

I have always felt that PR had plans to remove the body. I am not sure when JR became involved with helping with the coverup so just talking about PR since most think she wrote the letter. I think JR getting the plane ready may have been how they were going to get rid of the body completely out of the state. I think they were going to carry body out maybe in suitcase and get it on that plane to dispose out of state.

Regardless of JR involvment.
Question is

Do people think PR original plan was to get rid of the body so that it always remained a mystery what happened to JBR?

I wondered about that also. If maybe that was what they first thought about doing, then eventually decided to call all their friends over to contaminate the scene and have the police or someone else searching the house find her. There were so many weird things going on. At times it sort of looked like two different plans morphed into one. I guess they couldn't be sure what the police officers would do once they got there. ...maybe had to change things on the fly
 
This wasn't covered in the CBS show, but I remember reading that as John saying to Melinda's boyfriend that he found the body at 1am and their being a lot of people in the house in the middle of the night?
 
Whatever else one comes away with after last night's final segment on CBS or the DP shows, Burke Ramsey has come across as an odd duck. Odd as a kid and odd as an adult.

He sneaked downstairs, alone, in the dark, after everyone else was in bed. Sorry, this is odd. Most kids get creeped-out in darkened houses at night and do not wander around, but Burke had no natural fear of even going into the basement alone in the dark. This is abnormal.

He had HiTech hiking boots. "I was always in the basement, what does that print prove?" eew He was defending the boot print which was at one time a major bit of evidence in Lou Smit's intruder theory. I guess Lou was never told that he had these hiking boots. Apparently, LW still hadn't heard about the boots since he claimed on DP that none of the Rs ever owned a pair of these boots. Burke contradicted him, the man who had defended the family for decades, with his own hubris. Why did the Rs lie about he boots? Because of the print in the WC. They never said "well, yes he had a pair of those boots but he was always playing in the basement so that print could have been put there at any time". They lied because they know he was in the WC THAT night.

He maybe had pineapple. "Can you remember what you ate 20 years ago?" I think yes, if that was the last thing you ate before you sister's murdered corpse was found in your house. At age 10, he froze in panic when shown the photo of the bowl of pineapple, knelt on his hands on the chair and went blank. When asked to ID what was in the photo, he ID'd the table, the iced tea glass but refused to ID the bowl of pineapple, saying only "oh". It was chilling. "What was JonBenet's favorite snack?" asked the interviewer, "she didn't have a snack" he replied. That was a wow moment for me. Why did he freeze at the sight of the bowl of pineapple? Because it was a big part of what happened that night and may have been the catalyst for the violent attack on JBR. She didn't have a snack, but he did. As in, "this is mine, not yours". He remembers that she didn't get a snack that night likely because she stole a chunk of pineapple form his bowl and it enraged him. She touched his food.

Judith Phillips said that PR told her that Burke hit JonBenet with a golf club in anger. This is much different than what JR, PR and BR himself on DP have stated - that it was an accidental back swing. Why do I believe Judith over the Rs? Because she has no dog in this show and no reason to lie. Judith could not comprehend why the parents would request that none of their friends cooperate with LE in the murder investigation. She did and was shunned by the friends she had known since Atlanta. Why did they not want anyone to cooperate with LE in the investigation of their child's murder? Because they didn't want Burke's history of bizarre behavior to be known.

Dr. Glass, during her interview with Tricia, stated that Burke exhibited 'duping delight' meaning that he got pleasure out of lying about the events of JonBenet's murder. Chilling. She also stated that poop on the candy was an act of violence and hatred towards JonBenet. His smiling at the funeral, his giddiness during the interviews when he was a child and his laughing and smiling during the DP show made my skin crawl. He seems to be very delighted that no one has yet to figure out what happened that night and his hubris is making him leak out facts not previously known. He will never be able to withstand a withering cross examination.

I was shocked at the actions of Alex Hunter. It is as thought he knew that Burke was the murderer but since he could not be prosecuted, the Rs were going to be allowed to slide on the staging. Shocking.

Dr. Spitz proved beyond all doubt that a 10 year old (and Burke was just 2 weeks shy of being 10) could, in fact, deliver a deadly blow to the fragile skull of a 6 year old child. JR stated that it was laughable to even suggest a 9 year old had the strength to do such a thing, although Burke was 10 for all real purposes except prosecution, as he continued to distance Burke from the crime, even on the DP show. He is despicable.

The CBS investigators proved, without any room for doubt, that no one could go through the basement widow without destroying the spider web and disturbing the debris in the window well.

Dr. Lee proved that brand new clothing, right out of the package contains tDNA left over from the manufacturing and packaging process. He also explained how easy it is to transfer DNA from one place to another and that the minuscule amount of DNA was irrelevant to the crime. One can only imagine the amount of DNA that is transferred from workers in clothing sweat shops onto the clothing they make. DNA from fingers, sweat, saliva, even blood can be expected on even brand new clothing. Dr. Lee also proved that there will be DNA in the cord and possibly on the flashlight and batteries and they should all be tested again.

Most enlightening was that there was no sexual assault. None. Microscopic cellulose only. Could this have been from toilet paper? I think yes. No splinters of wood. This spins the staging into another realm altogether. I always assumed it was done to cover prior sexual abuse. Now I believe that the staging was done to cover an intentional act by a mentally disturbed and troubled kid and have rejected that this blow was done by a kid who didn't know his own strength. He knew and, IMHO, did this on purpose. He swung the flashlight into her head with as much force as he could muster because he has no control mechanisms.

What did Burke scream at Judith in an explosion of anger? "Go away! Don't touch me, leave me alone!"? She said that this came out of nowhere.

Lin Wood went on a twitter rampage last night, threatening to sue the world. Well, well, well. JR said this is the last interview he will ever give but I think not. The next ones will be under oath in depositions and Burke will find himself being grilled by a battery of attorneys. His smart alec answers won't fly in the big, cruel world of litigation and I hope LW does file suit so that BR has to squirm under intense pressure of withering examination. It is long overdue.

After all I have seen and read, I have formed an opinion and am 100% convinced that Burke killed JBR and has zero remorse. Zero. He was not held accountable and therefore thinks he did nothing wrong. No consequences equals no wrong doing to him.

Thanks so much TeaTime you said exactly what I wanted to say.

Since he was 2 weeks shy of his 10th birthday, BR could not be charged with murder in Colorado at that time per the law. Even now as an adult, he cannot be charged as I read somewhere on WS. BR can continue on as he has. If there is a lawyer reading, please correct me.

BR still needs to tell the truth, stop thinking he is so smart getting away with murder....no matter what disease or illness he may have, he knows right from wrong. That is evident by his coached interview answers then and with Dr. Phil (another issue all together...disgusting).

Now that many things were revealed last night by experts on the crime team that were assigned to the murder, I would hope that those involved who helped cover up JonBenet's murder, will be investigated and held accountable...that includes, JR, PR, their lawyer, family friends, Stan Garnett (DA) who had to go along with politics, any politicians involved and Dr. Phil (oh yes, him too)....and the list goes on....whether these people are living or dead they need to be held accountable.

AS for Patsy Ramsey, hell in this life time and hell in the next for all she has done. (I am not talking about the cancer hell either, I do not want to see anyone deal with cancer.)

AND for both JR and PR....they not only covered up a murder of their little girl, but did not get the proper treatment for their son, I mean proper treatment, not treatment that they wanted to hear....they lost both children because of their power hungry and lets be a perfect family lifestyle....no matter how it hurt the children. All about the adults.

CBS felt real strong about the case, evidence, misjustice and JonBenet to produce and show the truth. Media is not always fair and does not always get news correct, but this time CBS did what needed to be done, credit to them for justice for JonBenet.

Shame on JR throwing your weight, money and threats around. For once someone stood up to you.

JMO
 
I wondered about that also. If maybe that was what they first thought about doing, then eventually decided to call all their friends over to contaminate the scene and have the police or someone else searching the house find her. There were so many weird things going on. At times it sort of looked like two different plans morphed into one. I guess they couldn't be sure what the police officers would do once they got there. ...maybe had to change things on the fly

Yes, good point. I do think some of the planning morphed into something a little different than they first had planned.

Maybe calling the friends over was to be used as the distraction they needed to try to get the body out. They may have realized it was never going to work and someone would surely see them trying to remove the body.

Such a fascinating case. So many possibilitiies.
 
I'd be laughing my head off (if this story wasn't so damn tragic) that Dr Phil's "defense of Burke and the Ramsey's show" backfired on him- big time. Like... Hiroshima big.

Poor Jonbenet- she deserved so much better from her family.
 
JR allegedly told one of his older childen that JBR was found at 11 a.m., when in fact, she was "found" by him and FW around 1 p.m. What made it suspect is around 11 a.m. is when JR disappeared for an hour and a half from Det. Arndt's view.
 
That was exactly the point of the stat - that out of all CONVICTED MURDERERS - 92% had Asperger's and here is the source for that stat - http://witscience.org/new-study-shows-92-convicted-murderers-suffer-aspergers-syndrome/


This article was never published, the "Witscience" website was called out by the American Journal of Medicine for their hoax/fabrication. American Journal of Medicine tweeted that it was a hoax, and that no such article actually existed. You can see the tweet and the information here: https://www.elsevier.com/connect/hoax-blog-touts-fake-ajm-article-linking-aspergers-to-murder

There's also no such thing as the "Wyoming Institute of Technology." I mean, just so we're clear here. Do not try to fool a websleuth, it does not go over well. WITscience is a SATIRE site, or just a clickbait site for money, it's hard to tell because their satire isn't actually funny.
 
This wasn't covered in the CBS show, but I remember reading that as John saying to Melinda's boyfriend that he found the body at 1am and their being a lot of people in the house in the middle of the night?

IIRC, he told his older children that the body was found at 11:00 am.
 
Whatever else one comes away with after last night's final segment on CBS or the DP shows, Burke Ramsey has come across as an odd duck. Odd as a kid and odd as an adult.

He sneaked downstairs, alone, in the dark, after everyone else was in bed. Sorry, this is odd. Most kids get creeped-out in darkened houses at night and do not wander around, but Burke had no natural fear of even going into the basement alone in the dark. This is abnormal.

He had HiTech hiking boots. "I was always in the basement, what does that print prove?" eew He was defending the boot print which was at one time a major bit of evidence in Lou Smit's intruder theory. I guess Lou was never told that he had these hiking boots. Apparently, LW still hadn't heard about the boots since he claimed on DP that none of the Rs ever owned a pair of these boots. Burke contradicted him, the man who had defended the family for decades, with his own hubris. Why did the Rs lie about he boots? Because of the print in the WC. They never said "well, yes he had a pair of those boots but he was always playing in the basement so that print could have been put there at any time". They lied because they know he was in the WC THAT night.

He maybe had pineapple. "Can you remember what you ate 20 years ago?" I think yes, if that was the last thing you ate before you sister's murdered corpse was found in your house. At age 10, he froze in panic when shown the photo of the bowl of pineapple, knelt on his hands on the chair and went blank. When asked to ID what was in the photo, he ID'd the table, the iced tea glass but refused to ID the bowl of pineapple, saying only "oh". It was chilling. "What was JonBenet's favorite snack?" asked the interviewer, "she didn't have a snack" he replied. That was a wow moment for me. Why did he freeze at the sight of the bowl of pineapple? Because it was a big part of what happened that night and may have been the catalyst for the violent attack on JBR. She didn't have a snack, but he did. As in, "this is mine, not yours". He remembers that she didn't get a snack that night likely because she stole a chunk of pineapple form his bowl and it enraged him. She touched his food.

Judith Phillips said that PR told her that Burke hit JonBenet with a golf club in anger. This is much different than what JR, PR and BR himself on DP have stated - that it was an accidental back swing. Why do I believe Judith over the Rs? Because she has no dog in this show and no reason to lie. Judith could not comprehend why the parents would request that none of their friends cooperate with LE in the murder investigation. She did and was shunned by the friends she had known since Atlanta. Why did they not want anyone to cooperate with LE in the investigation of their child's murder? Because they didn't want Burke's history of bizarre behavior to be known.

Dr. Glass, during her interview with Tricia, stated that Burke exhibited 'duping delight' meaning that he got pleasure out of lying about the events of JonBenet's murder. Chilling. She also stated that poop on the candy was an act of violence and hatred towards JonBenet. His smiling at the funeral, his giddiness during the interviews when he was a child and his laughing and smiling during the DP show made my skin crawl. He seems to be very delighted that no one has yet to figure out what happened that night and his hubris is making him leak out facts not previously known. He will never be able to withstand a withering cross examination.

I was shocked at the actions of Alex Hunter. It is as thought he knew that Burke was the murderer but since he could not be prosecuted, the Rs were going to be allowed to slide on the staging. Shocking.

Dr. Spitz proved beyond all doubt that a 10 year old (and Burke was just 2 weeks shy of being 10) could, in fact, deliver a deadly blow to the fragile skull of a 6 year old child. JR stated that it was laughable to even suggest a 9 year old had the strength to do such a thing, although Burke was 10 for all real purposes except prosecution, as he continued to distance Burke from the crime, even on the DP show. He is despicable.

The CBS investigators proved, without any room for doubt, that no one could go through the basement widow without destroying the spider web and disturbing the debris in the window well.

Dr. Lee proved that brand new clothing, right out of the package contains tDNA left over from the manufacturing and packaging process. He also explained how easy it is to transfer DNA from one place to another and that the minuscule amount of DNA was irrelevant to the crime. One can only imagine the amount of DNA that is transferred from workers in clothing sweat shops onto the clothing they make. DNA from fingers, sweat, saliva, even blood can be expected on even brand new clothing. Dr. Lee also proved that there will be DNA in the cord and possibly on the flashlight and batteries and they should all be tested again.

Most enlightening was that there was no sexual assault. None. Microscopic cellulose only. Could this have been from toilet paper? I think yes. No splinters of wood. This spins the staging into another realm altogether. I always assumed it was done to cover prior sexual abuse. Now I believe that the staging was done to cover an intentional act by a mentally disturbed and troubled kid and have rejected that this blow was done by a kid who didn't know his own strength. He knew and, IMHO, did this on purpose. He swung the flashlight into her head with as much force as he could muster because he has no control mechanisms.

What did Burke scream at Judith in an explosion of anger? "Go away! Don't touch me, leave me alone!"? She said that this came out of nowhere.

Lin Wood went on a twitter rampage last night, threatening to sue the world. Well, well, well. JR said this is the last interview he will ever give but I think not. The next ones will be under oath in depositions and Burke will find himself being grilled by a battery of attorneys. His smart alec answers won't fly in the big, cruel world of litigation and I hope LW does file suit so that BR has to squirm under intense pressure of withering examination. It is long overdue.

After all I have seen and read, I have formed an opinion and am 100% convinced that Burke killed JBR and has zero remorse. Zero. He was not held accountable and therefore thinks he did nothing wrong. No consequences equals no wrong doing to him.

Awesome post! Re "Duping delight" - this is the first time I am hearing the phrase yet it describes precisely what I observed during BR's interviews and attempted to express in a previous post It seems to me that this is a game he is enjoying immensely While I see socially awkward behavior, he doesn't appear to be anxious but rather insolent and haughty. In many of his answers he came across as a smart alec (sp?) My opinion only
 
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