The Chair Blocking the Basement Door

^ Even if they did, you think PR would be able to differentiate by the code numbers? Who looks/pays attention to the code numbers?

They would wrap the gifts, and include a receipt that listed all of the gifts that were wrapped/purchased. I really don't think they would go much further than that. You know how difficult it would be for a company like FAO Schwarz to label all the presents with code numbers, with the amount of gifts they would be wrapping for Christmas? They would make the process as seamless and streamlined as possible; they would have to.
 
^ Even if they did, you think PR would be able to differentiate by the code numbers? Who looks/pays attention to the code numbers?

They would wrap the gifts, and include a receipt that listed all of the gifts that were wrapped/purchased. I really don't think they would go much further than that. You know how difficult it would be for a company like FAO Schwarz to label all the presents with code numbers, with the amount of gifts they would be wrapping for Christmas? They would make the process as seamless and streamlined as possible; they would have to.

Since there really is no way to know for certain whether the gifts were marked or not to help identify them, let's assume you are correct. That Patsy's statement that she opened them to check which gifts were which in order to give Burke the correct Christmas gifts and save the others for his birthday. Then would she leave the ones she opened laying partially unwrapped in the basement during the following day when her children were allowed to play freely in the house? And were the only presents found opened Burke's? Was that also where the large size Bloomies would have been kept wrapped and waiting prior to delivery if they were still a Christmas gift?
 
^ The partially opened gifts were found in the wine cellar, which was locked. The lock was makeshift and was specifically made to lock at the top of the door, so the children couldn't reach it. So in reality, it makes sense that the partially opened gifts would be "hidden" in this room.

The bloomies wouldn't need to be stored here, in that, it was a gift for a person completely outside of the home (i.e. not for BR or JBR). Some people suggest that the bloomies were here because it fits with their own perceived narrative, but that's nothing but conjecture. Is it possible they were stored here? Sure, just as possible as it would be that they were not.

To my knowledge, yes, BR's gifts were the only ones that were found to be partially un-opened in the wine cellar after Christmas, but again, that doesn't prove that other Christmas gifts were not partially un-opened. PR could have done so and simply re-taped the ones she wanted to put out for Christmas. Of course, BR's would be the only ones found after the fact because, he was the only one who was not supposed to get all of his gifts on that Christmas; he was to receive some of the presents on his Birthday the next month.
 
Since there really is no way to know for certain whether the gifts were marked or not to help identify them, let's assume you are correct. That Patsy's statement that she opened them to check which gifts were which in order to give Burke the correct Christmas gifts and save the others for his birthday. Then would she leave the ones she opened laying partially unwrapped in the basement during the following day when her children were allowed to play freely in the house? And were the only presents found opened Burke's? Was that also where the large size Bloomies would have been kept wrapped and waiting prior to delivery if they were still a Christmas gift?


Jolamom,
Patsy knew who the gifts were for. The size tells you what they were, it was Patsy who personally purchased them, so she knew they were Burke's gifts.

Patsy placed them into the wine-cellar, so she would not need to open them. IMO it was Burke or JonBenet who opened them, Patsy is simply covering for the person who opened them.

Just imagine Burke Ramsey was questioned regarding the wine-cellar and according to Kolar BR admitted being in the wine-cellar Christmas Day afternoon and to opening those gifts.

So we have both Burke Ramsey and Patsy wanting to take responsibility for opening those gifts, how so?

Anyone see the inconsistency here?

Maybe these are not Birthday gifts for BR, could they be Christmas gifts he rejected earlier that day? Just because Patsy says they are Birthday gifts does'nt make them so.

Kolar in his AMA says;
I believe the torn wrapping on the Christmas presents photographed in the wine cellar played a part in the circumstances surrounding the murder. I can’t say how, because it was a part of my hypothesis.
Minimally this must include JonBenet. Above we have both Patsy and Burke wanting to explain away the Partially Opened Gifts, i.e. to avoid implicating JonBenet?

After her pineapple snack did JonBenet go searching down in the basement and find the size-12's, why were the unused pairs removed, could JonBenet have used the chair to gain access to the wine-cellar?

If the Partially Opened Gifts were really part of Burke's Christmas Gifts, is this why there is no video and few photographs available, i.e. they show the Partially Opened Gifts upstairs?

.
 
So she memorized the size of every gift she bought?

Also, you don't know all of the gifts that were purchased, so how you could know that (she knew that) is mind-boggling.
 
A few of gifts were taken the winecellar to be hidden for B's upcoming birthday.
So P knew what was in them and thus chose and took those particular ones.
She prob. unwrapped them a little upstairs to peek inside but don't know why she didn't retape them before hiding. Maybe she did and a curious B digged in them.
The problem is they were so close to JB's dead body .

I wonder why the lego set in the winecellar has no wrapping paper on it. It is the biggest one in size .and the only gift totally unwrapped. It seems it is torn out completely .

Another important point is that IIRC there was a crime scene photo in which a piece of wrapping paper could be seen on the floor but that was not the partially unwapped gifts sitting in front of the wall. That rather seemed a thorn out paper .
Patsy told she only unwrapped a little to see inside not that she tore them into pieces.

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Perhaps the lego one wasn't wrapped because it seems like a special gift that may have been purchased elsewhere. That, or perhaps it would have cost extra to have a gift that size wrapped? Maybe there is a store requirement that gifts exceeding a certain size will not be wrapped. I'm guessing here obviously.

PR was probably just too lazy to immediately wrap the presents after opening them -- I mean, look no further than the mess her house was when her maids were away. She may have just partially opened those gifts right before Christmas and she figured she'd re-wrap/tape them later when she had more time.
 
So she memorized the size of every gift she bought?

Also, you don't know all of the gifts that were purchased, so how you could know that (she knew that) is mind-boggling.

Userid,
So she memorized the size of every gift she bought?
Did I say that or did you imagine it?


Also, you don't know all of the gifts that were purchased, so how you could know that (she knew that) is mind-boggling.
Either do you know all the gifts that were purchased, so are in no position to judge.

Patsy purchased the gifts, she placed them into the wine-cellar, so patently knew what size they were.

.
 
A few of gifts were taken the winecellar to be hidden for B's upcoming birthday.
So P knew what was in them and thus chose and took those particular ones.
She prob. unwrapped them a little upstairs to peek inside but don't know why she didn't retape them before hiding. Maybe she did and a curious B digged in them.
The problem is they were so close to JB's dead body .

I wonder why the lego set in the winecellar has no wrapping paper on it. It is the biggest one in size .and the only gift totally unwrapped. It seems it is torn out completely .

Another important point is that IIRC there was a crime scene photo in which a piece of wrapping paper could be seen on the floor but that was not the partially unwapped gifts sitting in front of the wall. That rather seemed a thorn out paper .
Patsy told she only unwrapped a little to see inside not that she tore them into pieces.

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MURDERER_SERVANT;,
It might be not all the gifts in the wine-cellar were for BR's birthday, maybe some are discarded Christmas gifts?

I reckon Burke is in on the wine-cellar setup for him to be telling Kolar he opened the gifts, i.e. BR knows they should not be open so wants to offer an explanation, but he is doing this not realizing Patsy is also claiming it was really her who opened those gifts?

Kolar also refers to them as Christmas presents that really does not sound like a mistake, i.e. Patsy called them Birthday gifts, yet another inconsistency?

Whats going on here?

.
 
Userid,

Did I say that or did you imagine it?



Either do you know all the gifts that were purchased, so are in no position to judge.

Patsy purchased the gifts, she placed them into the wine-cellar, so patently knew what size they were.

.

You implied it by saying "PR knew what the gifts were." So in other words, she would have had to have memorized all of them. You should think before you speak.

I know that there were more gifts than less, which would make it all the more harder for her to have known which wrapped gifts were what.
 
You implied it by saying "PR knew what the gifts were." So in other words, she would have had to have memorized all of them. You should think before you speak.

I know that there were more gifts than less, which would make it all the more harder for her to have known which wrapped gifts were what.

You have to keep in mind you are trying to use the words of Patsy as though they are facts when you have no way of knowing whether they are the truth or not. You have only her word she bought both Birthday and Christmas gifts. Only her word she unwrapped them herself in order to figure out what gifts to give Burke. We know from other statements she has given she has not always been honest or forthcoming with the truth. She also has a tendency to change her story when the need arises. Now according to Kolar, Burke has also taken responsibility for opening the packages. So, you are back to square one. How do you know anything Patsy has stated is the truth? Logic says a child would be more likely to open an unopened gift then an adult. Also, an adult would be careful to unwrap them at taped places so as not to rip the paper for easy re wrapping. They would also most likely immediately rewrap them in order not to have unwrapped gifts laying around. Especially since, following your theory, Patsy would have also unwrapped gifts she was going to give Burke for Christmas and need to rewrap them right then in order to have them ready to go!
 
You implied it by saying "PR knew what the gifts were." So in other words, she would have had to have memorized all of them. You should think before you speak.

I know that there were more gifts than less, which would make it all the more harder for her to have known which wrapped gifts were what.

Userid,
You implied it by saying "PR knew what the gifts were." So in other words, she would have had to have memorized all of them. You should think before you speak.
Nope, the implication is an inference you made. All Patsy needs to remember is the long tall gifts will be Burke's. i.e. not every gift so to make that distinction.

Anyway, maybe they were marked on the sales receipt with a code against each item which was then duplicated on the gift wrapping?

There is more going on here than our debate over how Patsy identified the gifts.

She says she opened them, Burke says he opened them, who do you vote for and why?

.
 
You have to keep in mind you are trying to use the words of Patsy as though they are facts when you have no way of knowing whether they are the truth or not. You have only her word she bought both Birthday and Christmas gifts. Only her word she unwrapped them herself in order to figure out what gifts to give Burke. We know from other statements she has given she has not always been honest or forthcoming with the truth. She also has a tendency to change her story when the need arises. Now according to Kolar, Burke has also taken responsibility for opening the packages. So, you are back to square one. How do you know anything Patsy has stated is the truth? Logic says a child would be more likely to open an unopened gift then an adult. Also, an adult would be careful to unwrap them at taped places so as not to rip the paper for easy re wrapping. They would also most likely immediately rewrap them in order not to have unwrapped gifts laying around. Especially since, following your theory, Patsy would have also unwrapped gifts she was going to give Burke for Christmas and need to rewrap them right then in order to have them ready to go!

Jolamom,
Spot on! Patsy is telling us one of her fairy tales. Its sounds passable until Burke says he also opened the gifts, but in the afternoon, really Burke?

So is Patsy covering for Burke, and is Burke making up an explanation to cover some other scenario?

Kolar seems to think so, and I kinda get where he is coming from?

.
 
I reckon Burke is in on the wine-cellar setup for him to be telling Kolar he opened the gifts
Burke told Kolar he opened the gifts? Why are you now including Burke rejecting Christmas presents into this scenario? Why on earth would a child reject a bunch of Christmas presents? Even if he considered them crappy presents he would just push them aside and play his N64.
Kolar also refers to them as Christmas presents that really does not sound like a mistake, i.e. Patsy called them Birthday gifts, yet another inconsistency?
Another inconsistency is how BDI keeps morphing these presents between Christmas presents and birthday gifts when it suits a particular discussion, yet claiming at the same time Patsy's description of them as birthday gifts is hogwash. Recently they were considered birthday gifts and Burke went in there to have a peak at his birthday gifts. Now they're reverting back to Christmas presents and to add an extra layer of confusion, Jonbenet might be the one who's sneaking into the WC to unwrap the presents...which as we all know....takes us back to them being birthday gifts for Burke which she apparently wanted to see. Then they morph back into Christmas presents. It takes a magician and a juggler to handle these BDI scenarios...
Patsy is telling us one of her fairy tales
If its a fairy tale, why are elaborate scenarios being created out of the telling of this fairy tale?
 
*snip*Just imagine Burke Ramsey was questioned regarding the wine-cellar and according to Kolar BR admitted being in the wine-cellar Christmas Day afternoon and to opening those gifts.

Just imagine? What do you mean "just imagine"? Since this happened as you claim, then there is no "just imagine". When did Burke say to Kolar "I was in the wine cellar Christmas day afternoon opening gifts"?

You know, let's say he did open some gifts in the wine cellar Christmas afternoon. That screws up the scenario of those BDIs who claim that Burke got angry when JonBenet caught him and struck her on the head because she was still alive in the afternoon. I imagine the BDIs think Burke striking JonBenet on her head looked something like what's depicted in 4:53-5:02, only with 100x the rage.

[video=youtube;-hh_f_3TLYo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hh_f_3TLYo[/video]
 
Burke told Kolar he opened the gifts? Why are you now including Burke rejecting Christmas presents into this scenario? Why on earth would a child reject a bunch of Christmas presents? Even if he considered them crappy presents he would just push them aside and play his N64. Another inconsistency is how BDI keeps morphing these presents between Christmas presents and birthday gifts when it suits a particular discussion, yet claiming at the same time Patsy's description of them as birthday gifts is hogwash. Recently they were considered birthday gifts and Burke went in there to have a peak at his birthday gifts. Now they're reverting back to Christmas presents and to add an extra layer of confusion, Jonbenet might be the one who's sneaking into the WC to unwrap the presents...which as we all know....takes us back to them being birthday gifts for Burke which she apparently wanted to see. Then they morph back into Christmas presents. It takes a magician and a juggler to handle these BDI scenarios... If its a fairy tale, why are elaborate scenarios being created out of the telling of this fairy tale?


singularity,
Nicee, how confusing all this gift stuff is, are they birthday gifts or christmas gifts, did Patsy open them or did Burke?

Who do you reckon is telling the truth, Patsy, Burke or Kolar?

Maybe its a slip of the tongue by Kolar and he meant Birthday not Christmas, but given the context I think not. Its one of Kolars elliptical clues.

I'm only posting what is in the public domain.

.
 
Just imagine? What do you mean "just imagine"? Since this happened as you claim, then there is no "just imagine". When did Burke say to Kolar "I was in the wine cellar Christmas day afternoon opening gifts"?

You know, let's say he did open some gifts in the wine cellar Christmas afternoon. That screws up the scenario of those BDIs who claim that Burke got angry when JonBenet caught him and struck her on the head because she was still alive in the afternoon. I imagine the BDIs think Burke striking JonBenet on her head looked something like what's depicted in 4:53-5:02, only with 100x the rage.

[video=youtube;-hh_f_3TLYo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hh_f_3TLYo[/video]

icedtea4me,
When did Burke say to Kolar "I was in the wine cellar Christmas day afternoon opening gifts"?
God Only Knows, Beach Boys, I was not present!

That screws up the scenario of those BDIs who claim that Burke got angry when JonBenet caught him and struck her on the head because she was still alive in the aft
100% correct! Thats why I posted what Kolar is claiming, i.e. there might be another scenario?

Like I said months ago I'm flying with Kolar's BDI until it breaks down, so far it raises more questions.

.
 
You know, let's say he did open some gifts in the wine cellar Christmas afternoon. That screws up the scenario of those BDIs who claim that Burke got angry when JonBenet caught him and struck her on the head because she was still alive in the afternoon.
You've just highlighted one of many problems with BDI. Within the same theory it bounces back and forth between scenarios, jumps into rabbit holes it cant escape, and then it wants you to believe "it answers all questions" and "makes the most sense".

Now its got Jonbenet not only trying to open these gifts herself, but also dragging a chair in there to conveniently open what's on the verge of becoming her own tomb. But if this doesn't make sense to the reader and is on the verge of them realizing it doesn't fly, it can quickly morph back to Burke doing this part and they can magically become Christmas presents again!

Like I said in the other thread, on its razor thin surface it sounds possible and "makes sense" as they say. Once any digging into the theory starts, it all unravels to the point it needs multiple scenarios going on simultaneously in an attempt to keep it afloat.

One of BDI's biggest advocates here now says "the case looks PDI" yet at the same time says "PDI is dead in the water".

It doesn't compute.

Since the beginning, BDI's biggest problem of all is PDI in general. It cant explain away Patsy being all over this crime scene so it attempts to turn her into a background character. She's ignorant. She's asleep. She's not talking to him. It doesn't work. Patsy's head keeps appearing in the story telling them they're going down the wrong path...

Its like that old game whack-a-mole. As BDI goes over its theory, Patsy's head continually pops up and they have to hit her with a mallet to keep her out of the equation but she keeps popping back up. She'll always keep popping back up no matter how big the attempt to marginalize her and/or make it appear as if Burke outshines everyone else in the case.

It also uses this tactic with John. He is completely clueless and it offers two scenarios(that sometimes intertwine):

He's in on the coverup with Patsy

He is completely clueless to the unfolding events until he finds her body even though he's been doing some basement spring cleaning hours earlier

Follow the evidence as they say. No need to jump through hoops with a basket on your head while working a Rubix cube in each hand while riding a unicycle.

UK....



I'm flying with Kolar's BDI until it breaks down, so far it raises more questions.

Its already crashed and burned.

I thought BDI said it answers all questions? All its doing is raising more questions than it answers. As it continues to dig holes it cant possibly get out of, it starts burying itself in questions that can never be answered and simply leads to more questions. Now some BDI say no matter which DI is true, Burke's in on it somehow.

The theory is quickly smothering itself in its outlandish scenarios.
 
i know this thread is getting off topic but just want to add.
burke is guilty of being a strange insensitive little boy. who can say honestly they don't know a kid just like him!
last week my bestie had a very serious car accident, her car was written off miracle she walked away with just some bruising. she was on her way to mcdonalds to get her boy at home a slushie after she finished work. so she rang me to come pick her up.
we walked in her home and mr 12 says" did you still get my slushie?"
(he was aware via his dad that mum was in an accident).

I couldn't believe it.

BR is definitely part of the conspiracy.
imo he has spent his lifetime protecting his beloved mum and dad from being taken away.
he isn't a very good liar. he knows 100% what went down and it must be extremely difficult carrying that load for ever. lucky for him his personality enjoys the darkness of it all though....double edged sword I guess
 

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