The Doe Network, Part 2: Who is Princess Blue?

[LionRun]

I am bringing this over from the original Doe Network thread.

How has this changed now to an unknown weight? Have you had the chance to talk to the person at TMPCH and asked WHY the weight was changed to unknown when before they estimated 175 lbs and based on other factors besides the ring?


In post # 82 Lion says:

Also, I spoke with the person at the Texas Missing Persons Clearinghouse in charge of Princess Blue's case. She said that although LE has and is still trying to contact everyone from the graduating class of 1975, she doesn't know if they have reached all of them. She said that LE has obtained pictures and notes from 1975 from the school; but, I was unclear as to whether or not they actually have a copy of the year book.

She said that out of respect for the family members(hopefully they will be found), they intentionally did not state the manner of death. However, she said that she has no notes about clothing found with Princess Blue's remains, and that would most likely have been posted to help ID her if clothes were found with her remains. I speculate that she may have been found with no clothes. We can speculate there may have been foul play because of this and the fact that she was found in a place, full of debris and considered a dump site for bodies.

She also confirmed our belief that the ring is a ladies ring. Good, at least that is finally out of the way, lol. She does not know if the ring was sized up or sized down; however, I believe it was most likely sized up.

She said emphatically that her weight was determined by other factors other than the ring size. She didn't specify what factors; but, connections on the bones for tendons are larger, the heavier a person is, and/or the more strength training exercises they do. There are several ways to estimate weight based on skeletal remains. So, I think we can assume her weight was somewhere around 175 at death.

I try to be as accurate as possible concerning facts--as everyone here has figured out by now. however, I did not take written notes of my conversation with the person at The Texas Missing Persons Clearinghouse. I went solely by memory, and I hope that I wasn't mistaken. But, my question began with, "I see that Princess Blue's size 9 1/2 ring size seem to have been what was used to determine her weight in life..". I was about to follow that up with, "Did a forensic anthropologist or a forensic pathologist also examine her remains to back that up:, when she stopped me to say that the ring would not have been the only method that was used to determine her weight. She went on to say that other methods including the use of a forensic team of some kind would have also been responsible for determining her weight.

I used the word emphatically in my post above because she stopped me in mid question. I was very grateful to her for taking so much time with me that day. She has over 400 cases to work on, she said. And, I could tell that she truly cared about what she was doing. If there was a mistake made, whether it was LE, the lack of funds from the gov. to initially do comprehensive testing, a mistake at the TX dps site, or me, at least we now have more information. Hopefully, we will get more in time.

Lion

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

Sloane, you are correct that the TXMPCH site has said that Princess Blue's weight was unknown as far back as 2003 according to the WayBack Machine.

http://web.archive.org/web/20031211...x.us/mpch/UnidentifiedDetails.asp?id=U0310014

By the way, to anyone who can remember, was the previous guess as to P.Blue's weight of 175# ever listed on the MPCH? I have a printout of the posting dating back to March 7, '07, and it was listed as "Unknown" at that time as well. When did it change, or did it?

Thanks all,

 

[LionRun]

Sloane, you are correct that the TXMPCH site has said that Princess Blue's weight was unknown as far back as 2003 according to the WayBack Machine.

http://web.archive.org/web/20031211...x.us/mpch/UnidentifiedDetails.asp?id=U0310014

I think that there has been confusion at least in part because I and perhaps others went on what is up on the doenetwork and what was in that news article from 9/2006. I thought that the TX dps site was recently changed; however, I was obviously mistaken. I am sorry about that.

Lion

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

I agree that the 175lbs estimate came from the article about the ring and that the Doe Network put that up on their site based on the article.

No need to be sorry We all thought that the weight estimate on the TX dps site had been changed recently.

ETA: Hopefully that autopsy report will shed a lot of light on things!

I think that there has been confusion at least in part because I and perhaps others went on what is up on the doenetwork and what was in that news article from 9/2006. I thought that the TX dps site was recently changed; however, I was obviously mistaken. I am sorry about that.

Lion

 

[MrsG728]

I'm going to begin looking into the local papers as you guys suggested. Thank you for the links- you guys are AMAZING sleuthers... what a great idea!

MG

 

[LionRun]

I'm going to begin looking into the local papers as you guys suggested. Thank you for the links- you guys are AMAZING sleuthers... what a great idea!

MG

Thank you MrsG! I am having extreme difficulty doing this research. It takes going to many, many different pages to find anything relevant. Because of my horrible internet connection it is taking me up to 5 minutes to load 1 page! And, sometimes it goes so slowly that it gives up, and I can't even load the page! I love wildlife and much about rural areas, but dinosaur dial-up is NOT one of them:crazy:!

Thank you RKnowley. It may have been me who thought that the info on the TX dps site was changed recently. If so, and if I caused folks extra work in figuring out that it was not a recent change, I am sorry.

Lion

 

[LionRun]

Hi fellow sleuthers. Sgt. Coffman emailed me again today. He said that there are unfortunately many unknowns in Princess Blue's case including body weight, clothing, and even cause of death. Manner of death is most likely homicide, I imagine, lest she walked into a known dump, died, and somehow her skull ended up in a tire. But, cause of death(strangulation, drowning, etc..) is apparently unknown.

He confirmed that Princess's weight was in fact originally determined by her ring size. At least we now know not to use 175LB to describe Princess Blue. That could have left out so many possible matches.

He also thanked us for helping him in this case.

Lion

 

[Jaded]

Have they ruled out Blanca as a match?

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

Does anyone know where we stand in regards to the yearbook? I noticed that Sable had entered a lot of names. How close are we to having it completed?

 

[KT Can]

Hello to all... I can't believe I haven't noticed this thread before now. :doh: Anyhoo, I live in Houston in and Princess Blue's case has been stuck in my head since I first heard about her years ago; it's that darn class ring - it seems so easily traceable. I did some sleuthing on this about five years ago, coming up with nothing, so I'm glad you guys started this thread and have been so diligently working on her case. Kudos to all of you! :clap: :clap: :clap:

A couple of thoughts just from having lived here all of my life and having traveled through Manvel more times than I can remember. First of all, Manvel is a blip on the map, an easy dumping ground for someone traveling on 288 or Highway 6, which are both major roadways. Highway 6 sort of runs parallel to I-45 starting right before Galveston and then kind of vears off to the west and takes you to 59. We had LOTS of girls missing and/or abducted and murdered here in the 70's, 80's & 90's along what is called the I-45 corrider, the stretch from Galveston to Houston and several miles to the east or west on either side. Highway 6 could very well fall under this umbrella. Highway 6, Highway 288 and I-45 are all routes used by truck drivers going to and from the refineries and chemical plants along the coast and a main theory throughout these abductions and murders has been that it was a truck driver(s) with regular routes through the area. Princess Blue could have been abducted or hitching a ride, but her having the class ring says to me that she is local, or that a relative was local at one time and handed the ring down to her. Of course her finding the ring is another option; I've often had the thought that the ring doesn't hold as much significance in identifying her as we would like.

The suggestion that this could be Blanca Roberson is a good one; I'm not clear if this has been checked out so I apologize if it has. Blanca disappeared from Aransas Pass, an area near a lot of refineries and chemical plants. Highway 35 begins near Aransas Pass and goes along the coast somewhat and runs into Highway 288 and ends at Highway 6 very close to Manvel. Highway 35 would again be a route used by truckers going to the refineries and chemical plants between Houston, Galveston, Corpus Christie and the cities in between along the coast.

A thought I've had about the Princess Doe not being a missing person from Houston is that with all the publicity the I-45 missing and murdered were receiving around the time Princess Blue was found, I would think that LE would have thoroughly compared her to everyone that had been reported. Who knows on that one though...

 

[LionRun]

Does anyone know where we stand in regards to the yearbook? I noticed that Sable had entered a lot of names. How close are we to having it completed?

Good question RKnowely. I think that MrsG was working on it, but she had a couple of things she needed to take care of before she was to continue adding names to the spreadsheet.

Lion

 

[KT Can]

Let me tell you about another case:

In March of 1997, the skeletal remains of a Hispanic (this time, for sure!!) or mixed Hispanic/ Caucasian young woman were discovered on private property in the Monaville area of Waller Co., Texas. Its location is near Irons Creek and FM359. There was no clothing or jewelry; she was wrapped in a mattress cover. She was believed to have been out there at least two years. She was between 5'0" - 5'4" tall, and would have weighed approx. 100-140 lbs. in life. She was between 23-35 yrs. old. She was believed to have been right-handed and had numerous dental restorations and dental crowding. DNA is on file w. the Nat'l. MP Database.

Another similar case to all the other UIDs in the general vicinity. Waller Co. borders Harris Co. just to the west.

Does anyone know if Lorraine Migl Light has been compared to Princess Blue as well as the woman found in Waller County listed above? Not so sure about Lorraine being Princess Doe but there are A LOT of similarities to the Waller County girl. Lorraine went missing from an apartment complex just a few complexes over from mine when I was 19. Her disappearance hardly got any publicity, I mainly knew about her going missing because most of my friends upon graduation moved into a group complexes in a certain area that included hers and mine and word traveled.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1102dftx.html

 

[LionRun]

Hello to all... I can't believe I haven't noticed this thread before now. :doh: Anyhoo, I live in Houston in and Princess Blue's case has been stuck in my head since I first heard about her years ago; it's that darn class ring - it seems so easily traceable. I did some sleuthing on this about five years ago, coming up with nothing, so I'm glad you guys started this thread and have been so diligently working on her case. Kudos to all of you! :clap: :clap: :clap:

A couple of thoughts just from having lived here all of my life and having traveled through Manvel more times than I can remember. First of all, Manvel is a blip on the map, an easy dumping ground for someone traveling on 288 or Highway 6, which are both major roadways. Highway 6 sort of runs parallel to I-45 starting right before Galveston and then kind of vears off to the west and takes you to 59. We had LOTS of girls missing and/or abducted and murdered here in the 70's, 80's & 90's along what is called the I-45 corrider, the stretch from Galveston to Houston and several miles to the east or west on either side. Highway 6 could very well fall under this umbrella. Highway 6, Highway 288 and I-45 are all routes used by truck drivers going to and from the refineries and chemical plants along the coast and a main theory throughout these abductions and murders has been that it was a truck driver(s) with regular routes through the area. Princess Blue could have been abducted or hitching a ride, but her having the class ring says to me that she is local, or that a relative was local at one time and handed the ring down to her. Of course her finding the ring is another option; I've often had the thought that the ring doesn't hold as much significance in identifying her as we would like.

The suggestion that this could be Blanca Roberson is a good one; I'm not clear if this has been checked out so I apologize if it has. Blanca disappeared from Aransas Pass, an area near a lot of refineries and chemical plants. Highway 35 begins near Aransas Pass and goes along the coast somewhat and runs into Highway 288 and ends at Highway 6 very close to Manvel. Highway 35 would again be a route used by truckers going to the refineries and chemical plants between Houston, Galveston, Corpus Christie and the cities in between along the coast.

A thought I've had about the Princess Doe not being a missing person from Houston is that with all the publicity the I-45 missing and murdered were receiving around the time Princess Blue was found, I would think that LE would have thoroughly compared her to everyone that had been reported. Who knows on that one though...

Hi KTCan. How are you doing these days? I am glad to see you here. Coming from the standpoint of not living in the area but, researching it, I have come to see possible connections as you do. I have found many missing, UID girls and women, and identified (murdered) girls and women all from that area during that time period. If I had to take a flying guess I would say that the I 45 corridor actually includes areas from there through Texas 6, to 288, and to 59, as it seems you think, too.

I recently realized that there seemed to be an unusual number of similar cases, and yet I knew nothing of those cases until I just started research on it about a week ago. It is truly astounding. I have a gut feeling that there were possibly two or more killers wreaking havoc at the same time. There may have been three or four. Gosh, who knows at this point?

Lion

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

Lion, I know MrsG had been working on it but within the last 2 days or so Sable has added a ton of names to the spreadsheet from the yearbook. I know this because she stated she was going to do so on the SKM website. I also know because I have been working on the females (contact info) the last couple days since she added the names. I was just wondering how close we were.

Good question RKnowely. I think that MrsG was working on it, but she had a couple of things she needed to take care of before she was to continue adding names to the spreadsheet.

Lion

 

[LionRun]

Hi all-
Just wanted to let your know the rsults of my discussion w/ a for. anthro. (~35 yrs. in the field!)
In short, unfortunately, there is "no credible evidence" in the prediction of the decay rate of bone marrow...DARN!! Sorry guys. Yes, research has been done in this field, but results are "inconclusive," thus far. I told him everything I know about the case, the scene, the timeline and her for. anthrop. profile, but he said there just really isn;t a clear formula to say, "Okay, she was out in this temp., this humidity, under / in a tire, she's this age range and size, so she must have been out there for (example) 5 years." It's just not like that. He says it is probable that marrow can withstand many years though, esp. if not disturbed by scavenging. As horrible as it sounds, that is a part of the human body that some scavengers go for - the marrow. So MAYBE, just maybe she wasn't out there since the seventies.

I'm interested to see what other experts have to say. So teons, and others who were going to ask ppl., please DO post your findings.

thanks,

Thank you sloane. I guess that we still just don't know so unless we can get another fa or fp with different information or experience to elaborate even further or give us a different point of view. i imagine that the fa you spoke with is highly skilled. now wonder I couldn't find valuable info on the subject.

So I am going to continue to keep my eye out for girls/young women who disappeared from 1975 to 1990. What we do know; however, is that we cannot rule out that Princess died in 1975 or shortly thereafter--at least not by what info we have so far.

About the bones and the marrow in them being scavenged--it would have been more likely that they would have been scavenged while relatively fresh. If some marrow remained in one or more bones past the time that they were, "fresh" the bones with the marrow would have likely become less and less appealing to scavengers. So, it wouldn't surprise me if they made it that far in time--once they made it past the, "fresh" stage. I am sorry for being so gory. I don't know how else to say that.


Another way that I know of to possibly determine TOD in a case where only skeletal remains are present is to note if any of the bones are still articulated(attached by soft tissue such as tendons) and to note things such as bone scatter, which bones are present(small bone decompose or are lost, first), and more. But, I don't know if Sgt. Coffman knows exactly what condition Princess Blue's remains were found in. Again, he inherited this case and others. I understand that they may not have been able to do as much when her remains were first found. And, I don't know how detailed the original records were.

Lion

 

[LionRun]

Lion, I know MrsG had been working on it but within the last 2 days or so Sable has added a ton of names to the spreadsheet from the yearbook. I know this because she stated she was going to do so on the SKM website. I also know because I have been working on the females (contact info) the last couple days since she added the names. I was just wondering how close we were.

Oh, okay. I understand.

Lion

 

[Jaded]

Thank you sloane. I guess that we still just don't know so unless we can get another fa or fp with different information or experience to elaborate even further or give us a different point of view. i imagine that the fa you spoke with is highly skilled. now wonder I couldn't find valuable info on the subject.

So I am going to continue to keep my eye out for girls/young women who disappeared from 1975 to 1990. What we do know; however, is that we cannot rule out that Princess died in 1975 or shortly thereafter--at least not by what info we have so far.

About the bones and the marrow in them being scavenged--it would have been more likely that they would have been scavenged while relatively fresh. If some marrow remained in one or more bones past the time that they were, "fresh" the bones with the marrow would have likely become less and less appealing to scavengers. So, it wouldn't surprise me if they made it that far in time--once they made it past the, "fresh" stage. I am sorry for being so gory. I don't know how else to say that.


Another way that I know of to possibly determine TOD in a case where only skeletal remains are present is to note if any of the bones are still articulated(attached by soft tissue such as tendons) and to note things such as bone scatter, which bones are present(small bone decompose or are lost, first), and more. But, I don't know if Sgt. Coffman knows exactly what condition Princess Blue's remains were found in. Again, he inherited this case and others. I understand that they may not have been able to do as much when her remains were first found. And, I don't know how detailed the original records were.

Lion

Hopefully the ME report will clarify some of these questions with regard to the discovery. *crosses fingers*

 

[sloane]

Good Morning!
Just can't keep my mind off of Lion, Jole', and 3-6 possible fluffy, adorable puppies! Any news on the delivery?
My best,

 

[Sable]

Just to put this out there in case it helps, even though we've already been over it, I found out yesterday that my younger sister's class ring is a size 9. She's roughly 165lbs, and wears it on her middle finger. I tried it on and it fits on my thumb (I weigh 130-135lbs). I looked the ring over, inside and out. The style of it looks somewhat similar to Princess's ring. It has a pink stone (instead of her birthstone which would be red) Alton High School lettering around the stone, an angel on one side (her father's side of the family nicknamed her Angel) and an Indian on the other (she has some Indian heritage on her dad's side of the family), her first name printed above one of the pictures, and on the inside of the band she has her name engraved. I asked her about it, and she's pretty sure it came standard at no extra cost. (MrsG - If you haven't already spoken to the people with Jostens, ask them if this is the case. If so, it would be interesting to know when started offering the engraving at no extra cost.) Also, it's possible that we got lucky if the ring, or more specifically the re-sizing of it, is what helps us identify Princess Blue. I got a promise ring from my boyfriend for Christmas, and last month I sent it in to have it resized. I finally got it back today, but should have gotten it sooner. The reason it took longer, is because something happened during the resizing process, that more or less ruined it, and it had to be replaced.

I updated Princess Blue's MySpace page. I put "no answer" for ethnicity, because of the changes to the TXMPCH page, and I included more information in the "about me" section. If there's anything I should omit, or anything else I should add, let me know. Oh! And I updated the pictures. I added captions to the ones already up, and added the composite of Princess Blue with short hair. (I put a little disclaimer of sorts towards the bottom of the "about me" section saying things such as hair style, eyebrows, and fullness of her lips may differ from how she looked in life.) I have one more thing to add to the "about me" section, and that is discriptions of the other rings and bracelet she was found with that we don't have pictures of.

 

[Sable]

We might have someone new joining us soon. I recieved a message today from someone on MySpace who asked who I was and what I have to do with this case. She also said she has been working on this case for 8 years, has had many leads, and is working on a new way to possibly help identify Princess Blue. I explained to her that I'm a member here at WebSleuths and we are trying to help identify Princess Blue. I included a link to the forum and a link to someoneknowsme.com, and invited her to join us. I'm still waiting to hear back from her, and will let all of you know when I do.