The jonbenet Ramsey letter

[TizerisT]

If Patsy wrote the ransom note, surely her first instinct would be to destroy the pen, or at least get it as far away from the house as possible, as opposed to putting it back in its box?

 

[digiskunk]

I know this is only semi-related so please delete if it's too off-topic.

Months ago I remember hearing the news about Gary Oliva and the supporting evidence they had against them, which focused heavily on his personal statements and handwriting analysis. If you compare the note to his own handwriting, they're nearly identical (in my opinion at least), and the fact that he allegedly confessed to a close friend at the time (not to mention worshipped Jonbenet) doesn't help him neither. I remember there was a good YouTube video that covered it.

I know this might sound crazy since so many have said it before, but I have a good feeling about this suspect. Maybe it's just confirmation bias on my part but every allegation made against him (outside the handwriting analysis) puts him in a very suspicious light...

 

[TizerisT]

I know this is only semi-related so please delete if it's too off-topic.

Months ago I remember hearing the news about Gary Oliva and the supporting evidence they had against them, which focused heavily on his personal statements and handwriting analysis. If you compare the note to his own handwriting, they're nearly identical (in my opinion at least), and the fact that he allegedly confessed to a close friend at the time (not to mention worshipped Jonbenet) doesn't help him neither. I remember there was a good YouTube video that covered it.

I know this might sound crazy since so many have said it before, but I have a good feeling about this suspect. Maybe it's just confirmation bias on my part but every allegation made against him (outside the handwriting analysis) puts him in a very suspicious light...

Thank you! I've been on here for days trying to get people to realise this!

 

[digiskunk]

Thank you! I've been on here for days trying to get people to realise this!

There are just way too many coincidences to ignore... I really hope more comes of this.

 

[layer]

Rather than trying to validate Oliva's claims regarding Jonbenet, I wonder if anyone has ever followed up on all the other children he claimed to kill.

 

[digiskunk]

Rather than trying to validate Oliva's claims regarding Jonbenet, I wonder if anyone has ever followed up on all the other children he claimed to kill.

Right?! I'm really, really hoping law enforcement are taking him much more seriously now considering all the evidence that's stacked against him. I'm just surprised this is the first time we've ever heard of him!

 

[CloudedTruth]

Rather than trying to validate Oliva's claims regarding Jonbenet, I wonder if anyone has ever followed up on all the other children he claimed to kill.

This is likely one of the reasons why some of his tales have been dismissed. If there were a long string of unsolved murders of children that followed him wherever he went, that would be a huge red flag. But there isn't. There are a few concerning coincidences that are troubling and make Oliva the subject of questions and being looked at, which is entirely appropriate. For sure, he's a nutter, which calls into question the validity and truthfulness of the many claims he has made. And the facts/evidence simply do not support him breaking in and doing this. There really is very scant evidence against him, it's all circumstantial. The vast majority of the evidence from the scene points away from an intruder.

 

[Mlc]

If Patsy wrote the ransom note, surely her first instinct would be to destroy the pen, or at least get it as far away from the house as possible, as opposed to putting it back in its box?

I absolutely agree with you. Why would they murder their beautiful little girl? Write a ransom note that was sprinkled with quotes that Patsy was known to use, then leave some evidence to pointed at them. you know, except for the missing pages from the notepad, the rope that they could never source back to the home the tape that was found over JonBenet mouth was never sourced from the home, but Queen of Information Linda Hoffmann Pugh, Mervin Pugh handed over 3 rolls of black tape 1 used that also matched or was similar to the tape covering JonBenet Mouth. It only makes sense that somebody who was familiar with the families, behaviors and routine somebody who is desperate, jealous, and envious of Patsy. This Crime was about money and the Hate of Patsy. who ran around attacking Patsy, Linda Hoffmann Pugh that’s who. Who took the day before the crime off LHP, who knew about the Dog not being in the home that night LHP, it goes on and on.

 

[Mlc]

I don’t even understand why nobody will get off the hamster wheel of Patsy did it, John did it, Burke did it, Patsy did it, Burke did it John did it, Patsy did it, Burke did it, John did it after almost 30 years. Writing an analysis is scored.1-5. 1 being most likely 5 being least likely Pasty Scored a 4.5 She couldn’t be excluded, but she most likely didn’t write the ransom. Do you know who else couldn’t be excluded Gary Oliver he scored a 1.75 but his DNA did not match. Linda Hoffman Pugh And now, by the time people started to hire lawyers, including the Ramsey, Linda Hoffman Pugh they were at that point hiring their own writing analysis. Linda Hoffman Pugh writing analysis her experts were determined to not even be experts. the original 2 experts who made their determination off of the original ransom and not copies determined that Patsy didn’t write the ransom. The first two experts in writing analysis are the only ones that weren’t paid by one side or another

 

[Meara]

Would that ink also be the same as ink from any other of the same type of pen? Same brand, same version, same tip, etc. would all have the same ink, and there'd be no way to tell which pen of that same type it came from. Yes, it could be an exact match to a pen Patsy normally used, but it should also be an exact match to lots of other pens as well, as long as they were the same type pen.

How many different types of inks could Sharpie pens of all types realistically use?

You might come up with countless exact matches if you were to test the note ink against enough pens of all sorts. Just as one example, I'd guess that more than one pen just in the Ramsey house alone would match. Could easily be more matches in the houses down their street. Sharpie pens are so common, might find one in every house, most all would be black and some fine tip, so some of them would be of the same type the note was written with, and those should also be a match if tested, imo. Again, I certainly see room for reasonable doubt on the pen. Imo, plenty of other, more ironclad bits of evidence pointing to the Ramseys than the pen.

sunspun: Would that ink also be the same as ink from any other of the same type of pen?

No. The Secret Service determined that the ink was unique to Patsy's pen. It could not have come from any other pen. This information was in my first reply to you at #160, copied below. Be sure to take a look at it this time!

sunspun:
no way to tell
could be
should be
might come up with
I'd guess
could easily
might find

Secret Service: The ink [on the notes] is unique in the collection of approximately 7,000 standards from the Ink Library.

Think I'll go with the Secret Service on this one.

post #160
The Sharpie keeps being used as evidence for PDI because investigators found an exact match between the ink in the pen, the ink used in the ransom note, and the ink in other items Patsy had written.

Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation; Kindle, p. 54
We were then brought up to date on a new discovery. Crime scene techs at the house had recovered three Sharpie felt-tip pens from an orange metal container on the kitchen counter beneath the telephone from which Patsy had made her 911 call, not far from where the ransom note tablet was found.....the U.S. Secret Service eventually determined that one of those pens, a pre-November 1992 water-based ink Sharpie, was used to write both the practice and actual ransom notes. The Secret Service, which maintains a huge database on inks because of its federally mandated assignment to chase forgers, told us, “The ink [on the notes] is unique in the collection of approximately 7,000 standards from the Ink Library.” That meant that whoever wrote the notes used that exact pen from that cup. They not only left the pad behind but, when they finished, neatly put the felt-tip pen in its container.

Perfect Murder, Perfect Town; Kindle, p.667
The police listed twenty-five indications that pointed away from an intruder: Lab tests showed that the fine-line Sharpie pen with which the note was written was one that Patsy had used before.

 

[TizerisT]

This is likely one of the reasons why some of his tales have been dismissed. If there were a long string of unsolved murders of children that followed him wherever he went, that would be a huge red flag. But there isn't. There are a few concerning coincidences that are troubling and make Oliva the subject of questions and being looked at, which is entirely appropriate. For sure, he's a nutter, which calls into question the validity and truthfulness of the many claims he has made. And the facts/evidence simply do not support him breaking in and doing this. There really is very scant evidence against him, it's all circumstantial. The vast majority of the evidence from the scene points away from an intruder.

He likes to brag about this stuff, and yeah, quite possibly he does exaggerate, but that's not good enough to discount him.
This also happened:
>1989 or 90 - Oliva sends a message to Micheal Vail (audio i think) 'pretending' that he was left alone babysitting a friend's daughter and simulating a rape.
>1990 - Oliva abuses 7 year old while babysitting her and is convicted for it

 

[CloudedTruth]

I don’t even understand why nobody will get off the hamster wheel of Patsy did it, John did it, Burke did it, Patsy did it, Burke did it John did it, Patsy did it, Burke did it, John did it after almost 30 years. Writing an analysis is scored.1-5. 1 being most likely 5 being least likely Pasty Scored a 4.5 She couldn’t be excluded, but she most likely didn’t write the ransom. Do you know who else couldn’t be excluded Gary Oliver he scored a 1.75 but his DNA did not match. Linda Hoffman Pugh And now, by the time people started to hire lawyers, including the Ramsey, Linda Hoffman Pugh they were at that point hiring their own writing analysis. Linda Hoffman Pugh writing analysis her experts were determined to not even be experts. the original 2 experts who made their determination off of the original ransom and not copies determined that Patsy didn’t write the ransom. The first two experts in writing analysis are the only ones that weren’t paid by one side or another

Because the majority of the evidence points to a family member, not an intruder. We now know much more about the handwriting analysis than we did when it was first done. PR could not be excluded and most concluded she was the writer. The person who did the most recent analysis on Oliva had originally pegged PR as the writer. Regardless, her “expertise” and credentials are very much in question. The institution where she claims she received her training does not exist. The R’s were lawyered up by late afternoon on 12/26, the day the body was found, and refused to be interviewed for over 4 months, wasting precious time and stalling LE efforts. Their actions are very much responsible for people thinking they’re guilty. And their PR machine has turned out mostly misinformation to continue to muddy the waters.

 

[CloudedTruth]

He likes to brag about this stuff, and yeah, quite possibly he does exaggerate, but that's not good enough to discount him.
This also happened:
>1989 or 90 - Oliva sends a message to Micheal Vail (audio i think) 'pretending' that he was left alone babysitting a friend's daughter and simulating a rape.
>1990 - Oliva abuses 7 year old while babysitting her and is convicted for it

I am unaware of any communication from any LE agency anywhere that he is a suspect in any other murders. He has been arrested and charged for crimes he committed, so he’s not particularly good at evading being caught for his crimes. I’ve agreed he should be looked at, and they have.

 

[TizerisT]

But evidently not close enough, as the following video shows us that Oliva has been recorded saying that he used a small yellow notepad that night.

 

[CloudedTruth]

LOL. Who is this guy? He sure likes to ramble and speculate. The notepad the RN was written on was 8.5 by 11. It was not a junior pad. Only two of the six experts used the numerical scale, this has been misrepresented by the R’s pr team since they started releasing the handwriting results. JR was a big movie buff, likely those references came from him for PR to include, which includes “listen carefully” from Dirty Harry and the Mindhunter book.

 

[Mlc]

Because the majority of the evidence points to a family member, not an intruder. We now know much more about the handwriting analysis than we did when it was first done. PR could not be excluded and most concluded she was the writer. The person who did the most recent analysis on Oliva had originally pegged PR as the writer. Regardless, her “expertise” and credentials are very much in question. The institution where she claims she received her training does not exist. The R’s were lawyered up by late afternoon on 12/26, the day the body was found, and refused to be interviewed for over 4 months, wasting precious time and stalling LE efforts. Their actions are very much responsible for people thinking they’re guilty. And their PR machine has turned out mostly misinformation to continue to muddy the waters.

The unknown Male DNA they staged that Yeah ok. And Linda Hoffman Pugh I do not believe and have not seen the amount of writing analysis that has been done against Patsy done on her. After all Patsy and her wrote notes to each other so she wouldn’t known some of the phrases that Patsy used she would’ve had samples on hand along with the Similar notepad and pens that she stole from the Ramsey‘s home.

 

[sunspun]

sunspun: Would that ink also be the same as ink from any other of the same type of pen?

No. The Secret Service determined that the ink was unique to Patsy's pen. It could not have come from any other pen. This information was in my first reply to you at #160, copied below. Be sure to take a look at it this time!

sunspun:
no way to tell
could be
should be
might come up with
I'd guess
could easily
might find

Secret Service: The ink [on the notes] is unique in the collection of approximately 7,000 standards from the Ink Library.

Think I'll go with the Secret Service on this one.

post #160
The Sharpie keeps being used as evidence for PDI because investigators found an exact match between the ink in the pen, the ink used in the ransom note, and the ink in other items Patsy had written.

Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation; Kindle, p. 54
We were then brought up to date on a new discovery. Crime scene techs at the house had recovered three Sharpie felt-tip pens from an orange metal container on the kitchen counter beneath the telephone from which Patsy had made her 911 call, not far from where the ransom note tablet was found.....the U.S. Secret Service eventually determined that one of those pens, a pre-November 1992 water-based ink Sharpie, was used to write both the practice and actual ransom notes. The Secret Service, which maintains a huge database on inks because of its federally mandated assignment to chase forgers, told us, “The ink [on the notes] is unique in the collection of approximately 7,000 standards from the Ink Library.” That meant that whoever wrote the notes used that exact pen from that cup. They not only left the pad behind but, when they finished, neatly put the felt-tip pen in its container.

Perfect Murder, Perfect Town; Kindle, p.667
The police listed twenty-five indications that pointed away from an intruder: Lab tests showed that the fine-line Sharpie pen with which the note was written was one that Patsy had used before.

I'm just saying that if tests proved the ink matched the ink in the pen of Patsy's, that it should also match the ink in all the pens that came in the multi-pack that Patsy's pen came from. And also match the ink in all the rest of the pens of the exact (discontinued) model version sold to whoever. They're not saying it had to be that one pen, but that it has to be a pen of the exact same brand, model etc. Which makes little difference in this case, I agree.

Oh, and I'm also saying that the fact that Patsy's pen was found to be in its usual place where she always put it, shouldn't be used as part of the evidence of PDI, since if that was NOT the pen used to write the note, it would ALSO be expected to be found in its normal place. That's kind of circular reasoning or something like that. Probably some fallacy that I don't know the name of.

 

[Meara]

I'm just saying that if tests proved the ink matched the ink in the pen of Patsy's, that it should also match the ink in all the pens that came in the multi-pack that Patsy's pen came from. And also match the ink in all the rest of the pens of the exact (discontinued) model version sold to whoever. They're not saying it had to be that one pen, but that it has to be a pen of the exact same brand, model etc. Which makes little difference in this case, I agree.

Ah.....yeah, actually, they are saying it had to be that one pen. That's what "that exact pen from that cup" means.

I understand what you're saying. In December 1996 there may have been other pens of the same model and vintage, with exactly the same type of ink, still in circulation; and it's possible that a SA killer was in Boulder on 12/25/96, had such a pen, B&E'd the Ramseys, and used it to write the ransom and practice notes. What we lack is the probabilities. The Secret Service was aware of those possibilities, too. And they had data from the manufacturer we don't have. From the fact that they claimed a unique match one may reasonably conclude that they calculated the killer-with-pen probability to be so small as to be statistically insignificant and for, all practical purposes, zero.

So, next argument up! Who's to say the guy didn't come in and just use Patsy's pen? Or hell, what if he swapped 'em out?
No. Not the hill I want to climb today, let alone die on.

Thanks for staying civil.

 

[ghettovet]

I dont post alot but this is the case that made me a true crime addict those many years ago.. I am sure the same can be said for many of you.. hundreds of hours reading and studying the strange events of this horrible holiday evening.. ultimately I came to the conclusion that many of you have.. BDI.. R's covered it up as best they were able with virtually zero street smarts.. fail as evidenced by the true bills.. but I digress..

here is what I want to ask.. how often has an CSA motivated kidnapping resulted in an attempt to recover a ransom from the family for return of the child alive?? All the time? Occasionally?? Never perhaps???

The perp knows he will be harming the child.. will he then collect money to return the damaged and broken results of this violation to the distraught parents?? Does that happen??

I believe that true ransom kidnappers such as the small foriegn faction types and CSA perps are not the same breed of criminal..

 

[Gunther Toody]

It's time to move past Oliva as the letter writer and the perp.
For one, Gary Oliva is a convicted pedophile, who, by definition has a sexual attraction to young children.

The object of his desire was JBR. He was obsessed with her, writing letters, poetry and even drawing pictures of her.
Then, according to intruder theorists, he devises a plan to be near her, risking capture and incarceration by breaking into her home.
Finally, when the object of his affection is close at hand and he can culminate his sexual fantasy...he doesn't!

She was not naked, no rape, no semen, no penetration, even though he is a convicted pedophile.
So what would have been the point of him going through all that trouble and risk?

No, he did not do this.
As further proof, here is the handwriting from one of his love letters to JBR compared to the writing on the ransom note.