The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[Alison]

another excellent post

bbm TLM was used, just like the other one that loaded up his account imo
I've always thought TLM was a victim as well as a predator. She was a victim in childhood that skewed her to the degree that she was prime to be prone to do anything for 'that little bit of love'. I read posts about her rage, journalling and past actions... they just don't make me think that she was out to get or kill a child... this was MR's plan and she went along with it. That is why I believe she attempted to assist LE in finding Tori as well as not go to trial, then take the blame for it all (for MR to get off lighter). My ideas may not be popular but they are my opinion. TLM is where she needs to be but I don't think she is a socialpath yet MR surely 'IS' imo.

I feel the exact same way. TLM was failed and she was an abused, afraid, tormented little girl. It is easy to hate her, but I think we should hate those who hurt her even more.It is a shame she was never given the tools she needed to succeed instead of becoming a murderer. JMO And no I do not feel sorry for her but I do feel sorry for the little girl who was abused. And even more sorry that she turned around and murdered a beautiful innocent little girl TS.

 

[Macright]

Was it mentioned in court about Tara wanting to give CM a couch?

don't think so but I remember her saying that....pity or what???? JMO

 

[crazyladi]

I would like to hear his side also but we may just hear that through his lawyer and that will do for me... JMO I am not that curious that I need to hear him speak or even see him in person...I don't get high on that...too many other important things in life...JMO

I don't get a high from it and I don't think that anyone else does. He was the other party involved and if he is innocent man up and tell these poor parents what happened. I'm sorry it's wrong and since he is so innocent what difference would it make to tell the truth?

 

[Heliotrope]

IMO the average weak Schmo is not capable of doing these things listed in Ardy's post:


TLM had a long, long history of violence. She stabbed a cab driver in the neck with a pen, stabbed a guy on the street, punched a police officer, beat up fellow inmates..........violence was second nature to her.

I've always thought people with very low self-esteem are more likely to lash out like that. Those actions don't signal strength to me, they signal weakness - a desperate desire to assert themselves, in recognition that they will never achieve any of the successes in life that most of us take for granted. Owning a home or car, holding a job, raising a family.

Add Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, which I've got to think might be a factor.

There's a foster child living nearby - I suspect FAS. My son acted aloof around her when we moved here. I asked him why he wasn't nicer to her? He said, that when there were no grownups around, she would threaten that her father would kill our entire family at night while we slept. They were both 5 years old at the time.

He liked Dora the Explorer and Thomas the Tank Engine at the time, and really didn't know what to make of that.

I have a lot respect for the people who take on children like that, it can't be easy. I have a horrible feeling that FAS is behind a lot of our problems today.

 

[Sillybilly]

There is no denying the defense theory is bizarre.

But, then the Crown theory is no less bizarre.

Bizarre is the trademark of this case, from the very beginning.

People have their daughter taken by people who sold them drugs, and happened to own the same breed of dog, and couldn't recognize them from videos or drawings............

That is about as far as I need go.....................

Want bizarre stories...........take your pick from the Crown or defense.

Glad I am not on the jury trying to decide which bizarre story is less bizarre than the other one.

JMO

Actually, it was Tara who called LE a few days after the video was released. She told them that she and JG believed they recognized the woman in the video ... that a friend had called them to say they thought it was TLM. (Also one of TLM's neighbours had called LE at some point .. not sure whether it was the same person who called TM or whether they had contacted LE before or after Tara reported it). TLM was hauled in almost immediately on the probation violation.

So, what's really bizarre here is somehow blaming the victim's family for their child's death.

Love dwells in cabins as well as in castles. Regardless of the family's lifestyle, it is not their fault that a sick and twisted duo decided to act out their frustrations or fantasies in a way that has torn the hearts out of the people who loved this child.

JMO

 

[Wondergirl]

You could be absolutly right... But it should be also noted that even Victoria's father still feels he has not got the whole truth. This comes loud and clear in his last interview. Though I too, trust the crown... it would be my desire that all if not most of the actual "truth" were brought forward for the jury's consideration. Maybe, just maybe, what is giving me the hardest time in this whole process has been that I watched from the start. Read numerous articles and watched each and everyday the noon hour pressers... while we all hoped beyond hope that little Victoria would come home. There is still huge holes in this trial and a whole lot of missing information that the jury has not been given. All of that is to say... I'm just not convinced on the sexual assult. That is not to say that I don't feel that MR shouldn't spend the rest of is life in jail for his part in what happened - because I do. I feel similar to Rodney... I'd like the whole truth - for Victoria's sake.... afterall she is the one who paid the ultimate price !

BBM: Yes, I agree. Rodney made it loud and clear he hasn't gotten the truth.

Rodney directly stated that Rafferty is a COWARD who did not stand up and give him the TRUTH. Another example of his pathetic behaviour in not giving peace to Victoria's family.

Even if Rafferty "only" buried the child's half naked body, as Derstine suggested, where the hell is his conscience now? Why hasn't he spoken up? Why hasn't he offered some peace to the child's family? Where is his conscience?

<modsnip>.

In fact, Rafferty is a big zero everything, IMO.

As Rodney said, Victoria is the only one to speak the truth of April 8th.

JMO

 

[OhSoCurious]

Was it mentioned in court about Tara wanting to give CM a couch?

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/21/9530446.html

"McDonald confirmed she wanted to donate a couch to Carol the moment she entered the dingy apartment whose sole livingroom furniture, she said, seemed to be a futon."

 

[robynhood]

...I am not sure If this has been posted ...CP24 has just announced on late night NEWS....THE DEFENSE WILL NOT be delivering there closing Statement Tomorow...FRIDAY...More LEGAL ARGUEMENTS ....now Monday ...Imo...OMG ...robynhood!

 

[Alison]

TLM had a long, long history of violence. She stabbed a cab driver in the neck with a pen, stabbed a guy on the street, punched a police officer, beat up fellow inmates..........violence was second nature to her.

She rose to the top in young offender facilities by beating people up. She took their medications from them. She was the boss of the range......and you don't get to the top by being nice.

Other inmates may not like what TLM did............but what are they going to do about it? She beat up a woman at Grand Valley prison for women for saying things about her.

TLM targets the weak and the strong.........doesn't make any difference to her................anyone who gets in her way.

Given her record........it is pretty clear to me that TLM is a really tough girl, probably physically strong, and she knows how to fight to win.

JMO

I am just wondering how you know this information about her when she was in a youth facility as it is highly confidential with the weight of the Young Offenders Act behind it?

 

[Ardy]

Don't forget the donating of furniture between all parties involved. Tara giving to Carol and Terri-Lynn. Mike's Mom giving to Carol and Terri-Lynn.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/21/9530446.html

JMO

Yes, and there was an MSM article about some guy who said he was going to buy a sofa from TM, but decided he didn't want it and TM said that was okay because she was going to donate it to her friend TLM.

The last quote in that article you linked to...........is chilling.

JMO

 

[crazyladi]

I've always thought people with very low self-esteem are more likely to lash out like that. Those actions don't signal strength to me, they signal weakness - a desperate desire to assert themselves, in recognition that they will never achieve any of the successes in life that most of us take for granted. Owning a home or car, holding a job, raising a family.

Add Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, which I've got to think might be a factor.

There's a foster child living nearby - I suspect FAS. My son acted aloof around her when we moved here. I asked him why he wasn't nicer to her? He said, that when there were no grownups around, she would threaten that her father would kill our entire family at night while we slept. They were both 5 years old at the time.

He liked Dora the Explorer and Thomas the Tank Engine at the time, and really didn't know what to make of that.

I have a lot respect for the people who take on children like that, it can't be easy. I have a horrible feeling that FAS is behind a lot of our problems today.

Well look at the two foster parents that were just found guilty of second degree murder of that little girl I think from Toronto? Anyways the judges final statement was how disappointed he was with children's aid because this incident should have and could have been avoided. Cas needs to start changing because more children are being abused and it's just not right

 

[Alison]

Thank-you for your post, Snoofer. Well said.

BBM: Naysayers of the Crown, should ask themselves 1 question.

Answer it honestly.

Naysayers of the Crown: Would YOU leave your 8 year old girl or grandaughter with Rafferty alone, right now?

Don't share your answer here. If you answer that question honestly, and are truly convinced in your answer, then, that's it then. You are without a reasonable doubt in this case. You truly believe in Rafferty and his innocence.

JMO

Or ask yourself if he was acquited would you be okay with him being your neighbour next week?
Cause let me tell you, I sure as hell wouldn't want him in the same city let alone on the same street as my family. JMO.

 

[Alison]

Well look at the two foster parents that were just found guilty of second degree murder of that little girl I think from Toronto? Anyways the judges final statement was how disappointed he was with children's aid because this incident should have and could have been avoided. Cas needs to start changing because more children are being abused and it's just not right

Look at the family who adopted a person with a developmental disability and then burned down the garage with the adoptee in it. Guess what their biggest criminal charge was? Insurance fraud, because no one cared that they killed someone with a DD. The system fails all the time and it is easier to blame the people it has failed then for us to try and fix it. JMO

 

[Ardy]

I am just wondering how you know this information about her when she was in a youth facility as it is highly confidential with the weight of the Young Offenders Act behind it?

It was all testified to in court, during Derstine's cross examination.

A Young Offender record is sealed after 3 years for summary convictions, IF no further offenses are committed. The date of the last conviction, including any probationary period reset each time a crime is committed.

With an ongoing criminal record, TLM never had her records sealed.

If a person commits a crime as an adult (after the age of 18) before the time limit has expired on Young Offender convictions.................the Young Offender Record is merged with the adult record and becomes part of the adult record.

An adult record is never erased, but a pardon can be obtained.

If a person is convicted of a another crime..........the pardon is revoked.

JMO...........

 

[OhSoCurious]

Yes, and there was an MSM article about some guy who said he was going to buy a sofa from TM, but decided he didn't want it and TM said that was okay because she was going to donate it to her friend TLM.

The last quote in that article you linked to...........is chilling.

JMO

It's beyond chilling. It's not a premonition. What would that be called? When someone unknowingly blurbs out a thought but in fact it was what actually happened?

 

[Alison]

It was all testified to in court, during Derstine's cross examination.

A Young Offender record is sealed after 3 years for summary convictions, IF no further offenses are committed. The date of the last conviction, including any probationary period reset each time a crime is committed.

With an ongoing criminal record, TLM never had her records sealed.

If a person commits a crime as an adult (after the age of 18) before the time limit has expired on Young Offender convictions.................the Young Offender Record is merged with the adult record and becomes part of the adult record.

An adult record is never erased, but a pardon can be obtained.

If a person is convicted of a another crime..........the pardon is revoked.

JMO...........

I know her record is not sealed because she has reoffended but was her behaviour (such as stealing meds etc) mentioned on the stand? I also wonder about the stealing of the meds because youth go see the nurse for their meds, they never have access to their own meds and they have to be taken in front of the nurse. I am just wondering as I said I have some knowledge of how a youth facility is run and it is highly secure in the protection of ones identity. Everything even art work with ones name on it has to be shredded.
Do not get me wrong Andy I do not think you are making any of it up, I just do not remember these parts in her testimony, however I found what she was saying to be quite brutal and could barely stomache it so I admit I did skim some of her testimony.

 

[Macright]

BBM: Yes, I agree. Rodney made it loud and clear he hasn't gotten the truth.

Rodney directly stated that Rafferty is a COWARD who did not stand up and give him the TRUTH. Another example of his pathetic behaviour in not giving peace to Victoria's family.

Even if Rafferty "only" buried the child's half naked body, as Derstine suggested, where the hell is his conscience now? Why hasn't he spoken up? Why hasn't he offered some peace to the child's family? Where is his conscience?

How on earth does anyone stand by this guy, at this point in time? He has zero honour, zero integrity, zero conscience, zero decency, zero humanity.

In fact, Rafferty is a big zero everything, IMO.

As Rodney said, Victoria is the only one to speak the truth of April 8th.

JMO

sorry I am not understanding the logic that if MR stood up and told his side that this would bring PEACE to RS and the rest.... what more could MR say that would be more horrific than what RS and others had to hear from the mouth of that evil sadistic TLM...she described how she murdered his daughter in graphic detail...the crown showed graphic detailed pictures of little Tori to the courts..RS and others were there and saw these..RS had to leave the court and more than likely throw up....knowing all of that which is about as bad as its gets didn't bring peace to RS and never will...It will haunt him to his last breath...He has some understanding of why this was done to his daughter what more could MR add...he could admit that he was involved or he could deny that he was involved...either way it will NOT bring any peace to RS.....he has heard the worst of worst and nothing MR can or would say would ever bring him peace... so why is it so important for MR to stand up and say anything...will it bring anyone peace...if he says he did it some will say..."I knew that all along...mark that off...if he says he didn't some will say LIAR...but either way no peace....it will make some smug that they "got it right" onwards...but it will never bring absolute PEACE to RS or others....JMO

 

[otto]

I too, have followed this case from the minute the breaking news came on my tv on April 9th, 2009, the day after Tori was taken. I have read much of these posts as well, though I have never posted. This case has pretty much taken over my life for the past three years, as im sure it has with most of you as well. I have travelled from Toronto to London three times thus far, to watch justice for Victoria first hand. I can say that a lot of what is said in that courtroom, is not neccisarily reported by the media. They are scrambling to jot down everything that is being said, and I believe they report the main points rather then every little detail. Rafferty sits in the prisoners box along the right side of the courtroom. There was discussion previous to his trial as to whether he would be able to sit with his lawyers as you mentioned, but was denied. His lawyers occasionally walk over to the box to speak with him, thats about it.

IMHO, I do believe TS knew TLM by passing.... they lived right around the corner from each other. It would have made TS feel that much more comfortable walking away with TLM. I know "of" people, not necisarrily "KNOW" them, and I see them around with their children, friends of friends have talked about them, etc. I find it very hard to believe that TLM knew both TM and JG but didnt know who their children were. Again, JMO. But I dont think TS was chosen over a drug debt.. JMO... Maybe TS did see TLM with her dog... Maybe when MTR told TLM to talk about candy or DOGS, TS came into TLMs mind? TLM also knew TM and JG's history... maybe she thought TS was an easy target, and already knew she loved dogs.. and knew TS would have a better chance walking away with her then a random child? JMO...


Sorry for the long post, Ive been reading for so long and never had the courage to say my own opinions.

Thanks for the info about MR sitting in the prisoner's chair. That appears to be a very uncomfortable chair to be in ... an humiliation appropriate for people in MR's position.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Yes, and there was an MSM article about some guy who said he was going to buy a sofa from TM, but decided he didn't want it and TM said that was okay because she was going to donate it to her friend TLM.

The last quote in that article you linked to...........is chilling.

JMO

That was actually the neighbour whose daughter was best friends with Tori. They had tea parties together all the time.

http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/plocal/CTVNews/20090521/090521_stafford/20090521/?hub=CalgaryHome

 

[brighidin]

Yes, and there was an MSM article about some guy who said he was going to buy a sofa from TM, but decided he didn't want it and TM said that was okay because she was going to donate it to her friend TLM.


JMO

Link, please. TIA
Nevermind, i see someone already provided it. Thank you, Alethea.