The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[puppyraiser]

I've always thought people with very low self-esteem are more likely to lash out like that. Those actions don't signal strength to me, they signal weakness - a desperate desire to assert themselves, in recognition that they will never achieve any of the successes in life that most of us take for granted. Owning a home or car, holding a job, raising a family.

Add Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, which I've got to think might be a factor.

There's a foster child living nearby - I suspect FAS. My son acted aloof around her when we moved here. I asked him why he wasn't nicer to her? He said, that when there were no grownups around, she would threaten that her father would kill our entire family at night while we slept. They were both 5 years old at the time.

He liked Dora the Explorer and Thomas the Tank Engine at the time, and really didn't know what to make of that.

I have a lot respect for the people who take on children like that, it can't be easy. I have a horrible feeling that FAS is behind a lot of our problems today.

There was an excellent documentary years ago about a family who adopted a child and later discovered he had FAS but for the life of me I can't remember the title of the film. Dad was a corrections officer who teased and taunted the inmates who were repeat offenders. He was not a kind man to the inmates. Son hit the teen years and all hell broke loose with him getting into trouble repeatedly. Son diagnosed with FAS and family learned strategies to more effectively deal with his behaviours. Dad went into work and encouraged a study be done on the inmates to see what percentage had signs of FAS. More than 50% showed numerous traits and characteristics. What I remember most about the film was the Dad, in tears, admitting things he had said to the inmates and how awful he felt knowing that most of them didn't stand a chance in the real world. The structure of prison life made it easier for them.

I mentioned weeks ago that I suspected TLM may be on the FAS/FAE spectrum- I have worked with individuals on both ends of the spectrum and IMO TLM has many of the characteristics. This in no way excuses what she has done in the past but it does explain why no "consequence" has been effective for her.

 

[Macright]

Yes, and there was an MSM article about some guy who said he was going to buy a sofa from TM, but decided he didn't want it and TM said that was okay because she was going to donate it to her friend TLM.

The last quote in that article you linked to...........is chilling.

JMO

yes I am sure I heard that sentence from another...chilling is correct...JMO

 

[crazyladi]

sorry I am not understanding the logic that if MR stood up and told his side that this would bring PEACE to RS and the rest.... what more could MR say that would be more horrific than what RS and others had to hear from the mouth of that evil sadistic TLM...she described how she murdered his daughter in graphic detail...the crown showed graphic detailed pictures of little Tori to the courts..RS and others were there and saw these..RS had to leave the court and more than likely throw up....knowing all of that which is about as bad as its gets didn't bring peace to RS and never will...It will haunt him to his last breath...He has some understanding of why this was done to his daughter what more could MR add...he could admit that he was involved or he could deny that he was involved...either way it will NOT bring any peace to RS.....he has heard the worst of worst and nothing MR can or would say would ever bring him peace... so why is it so important for MR to stand up and say anything...will it bring anyone peace...if he says he did it some will say..."I knew that all along...mark that off...if he says he didn't some will say LIAR...but either way no peace....it will make some smug that they "got it right" onwards...but it will never bring absolute PEACE to RS or others....JMO

What more could mr say? The truth!

 

[crazyladi]

Link, please. TIA
Nevermind, i see someone already provided it. Thank you, Alethea.

This is one article I remember as well from the beginning.

 

[Tahorn]

Thank-you for your post, Snoofer. Well said.

BBM: Naysayers of the Crown, should ask themselves 1 question.

Answer it honestly.

Naysayers of the Crown: Would YOU leave your 8 year old girl or grandaughter with Rafferty alone, right now?

Don't share your answer here. If you answer that question honestly, and are truly convinced in your answer, then, that's it then. You are without a reasonable doubt in this case. You truly believe in Rafferty and his innocence.

JMO

I wouldn't leave my eight year with you either ...

No offense, I don't know you ... Just saying

 

[maxfactor]

Naysayers of the Crown: Would YOU leave your 8 year old girl or grandaughter with Rafferty alone, right now?

Ummm I would NEVER leave my 8 year old daughter or granddaughter alone with ANY STRANGER THAT I DO NOT KNOW. That's the point. We all do not know Rafferty, so why would we be asked to leave our young girls with a stranger?

The question CANNOT be sincerely answered because he is a stranger to everyone that does not know him. JMO

IMO he is a stranger to everyone who did know him. I bet no one had any idea what kind of life he really led.

 

[Ardy]

Actually, it was Tara who called LE a few days after the video was released. She told them that she and JG believed they recognized the woman in the video ... that a friend had called them to say they thought it was TLM. (Also one of TLM's neighbours had called LE at some point .. not sure whether it was the same person who called TM or whether they had contacted LE before or after Tara reported it). TLM was hauled in almost immediately on the probation violation.

So, what's really bizarre here is somehow blaming the victim's family for their child's death.

Love dwells in cabins as well as in castles. Regardless of the family's lifestyle, it is not their fault that a sick and twisted duo decided to act out their frustrations or fantasies in a way that has torn the hearts out of the people who loved this child.

JMO

Tori's mother, meanwhile, told reporters she has no idea who the woman is.

"I've been staring at it all night and I don't have a clue at all. I don't even recognize the facial features," Tara McDonald said during a news conference outside her home.

McDonald also said she's not involved in her daughter's disappearance, but hasn't got back results of a police lie detector test she took.

"I know that at the end of the day, I have had nothing to do with this," she said.

The sketch of the woman -- she was seen walking with Tori after school April 8, in images from a nearby high school security video -- was based on a witness's memory, police said.

Who that woman is has baffled police and the public, and until the sketch was released late Tuesday, had no face.

"There are individuals in the family that have beliefs about the woman in the sketch. Our beliefs have been shared with the police," Rebecca Stafford said. "For me, personally, I can't say that I was completely taken aback by the picture. But at the same time I don't know the individual well enough."

Another family member said the woman looked a lot like a high school friend of Tori's father, Rodney Stafford.

http://intelligencer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1535825

 

[Alison]

I wouldn't leave my eight year with you either ...

No offense, I don't know you ... Just saying

Would you be comfortable next week if he moved in next door to you?
I would personally move my kids in with the grandparents while I scared him out of the nieghbourhood!

 

[Alison]

IMO we should take TM's first interviews with a grain of salt. She may have been asked by LE not to mention anything about who she suspected the person was so therefore she may have had to fly by the seat of her pants when giving interviews. Also we have to take into consideration that it was quite traumatizing for her. So maybe she said things like someone took tori to be mildly vindictive because this is what she wanted to believe, better to think that then what the reality of the situation actually was.

 

[Ardy]

I know her record is not sealed because she has reoffended but was her behaviour (such as stealing meds etc) mentioned on the stand? I also wonder about the stealing of the meds because youth go see the nurse for their meds, they never have access to their own meds and they have to be taken in front of the nurse. I am just wondering as I said I have some knowledge of how a youth facility is run and it is highly secure in the protection of ones identity. Everything even art work with ones name on it has to be shredded.
Do not get me wrong Andy I do not think you are making any of it up, I just do not remember these parts in her testimony, however I found what she was saying to be quite brutal and could barely stomache it so I admit I did skim some of her testimony.

I believe she would get the inmates to retrieve their own meds.........from the nurse as you say........but would hand them over to TLM.

Perhaps the nurse on duty wasn't making them take the meds in front of her...........or they stuck them in their mouth and didn't swallow or some form of distraction.

Inmates are ingenious...............

JMO

 

[Macright]

Would you be comfortable next week if he moved in next door to you?
I would personally move my kids in with the grandparents while I scared him out of the nieghbourhood!

it's funny you ask that question...we never know who is actually living next door to us...info like that can't be made public in Canada but in the states anyone can look it up and find out if your next door neighbour is a _________.
think about all the neighbours that lived in and around RW....they were stunned when the news broke.... who would have thought......I can't answer your question because I really don't believe he is a kidnapper or a rapist...sorry but that's my take on it...I just find him seedy in other ways and I don't think I would be comfortable having someone like him living next door to me but hey I do have a young guy living next door and he could be doing drugs for all I know ..the suit etc. that he leaves in everyday could just be a guise for all I know....JMO just saying......

 

[Alison]

I believe she would get the inmates to retrieve their own meds.........from the nurse as you say........but would hand them over to TLM.

Perhaps the nurse on duty wasn't making them take the meds in front of her...........or they stuck them in their mouth and didn't swallow or some form of distraction.

Inmates are ingenious...............

JMO

I guess I was not very concise what I wanted to know was did she testify to these behaviours on the stand?(Being top of the range, beating up people in youth jail, taking others meds etc) I just do not remember reading any of this. Like I said I skimmed some of her testimony.

 

[Tahorn]

That was actually the neighbour whose daughter was best friends with Tori. They had tea parties together all the time.

http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/plocal/CTVNews/20090521/090521_stafford/20090521/?hub=CalgaryHome

There is no way TLM did not know who VS was ... This case is so twisted ... I pray that no matters what happens one of them, TLM or RS have the balls to tell RS what really happened.

 

[Ardy]

That was actually the neighbour whose daughter was best friends with Tori. They had tea parties together all the time.

http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/plocal/CTVNews/20090521/090521_stafford/20090521/?hub=CalgaryHome

Thanks for that link.............

Gosh when you read that article.......all the lies...........man.

JMO

 

[Wondergirl]

sorry I am not understanding the logic that if MR stood up and told his side that this would bring PEACE to RS and the rest.... what more could MR say that would be more horrific than what RS and others had to hear from the mouth of that evil sadistic TLM...she described how she murdered his daughter in graphic detail...the crown showed graphic detailed pictures of little Tori to the courts..RS and others were there and saw these..RS had to leave the court and more than likely throw up....knowing all of that which is about as bad as its gets didn't bring peace to RS and never will...It will haunt him to his last breath...He has some understanding of why this was done to his daughter what more could MR add...he could admit that he was involved or he could deny that he was involved...either way it will NOT bring any peace to RS.....he has heard the worst of worst and nothing MR can or would say would ever bring him peace... so why is it so important for MR to stand up and say anything...will it bring anyone peace...if he says he did it some will say..."I knew that all along...mark that off...if he says he didn't some will say LIAR...but either way no peace....it will make some smug that they "got it right" onwards...but it will never bring absolute PEACE to RS or others....JMO

Rodney Stafford asked for the TRUTH.

IMO, one could also call MTR evil and sadistic, and, a coward.

What more could MR add you ask? Why is it so important for MR to stand up and say anything?

<modsnip>

He allegedly kidnapped, sexually assaulted, murdered and buried Rodney's 8 year old girl.

The LEAST he could do, is offer up some truth.

<modsnip>

JMO

 

[OhSoCurious]

Tori's mother, meanwhile, told reporters she has no idea who the woman is.

"I've been staring at it all night and I don't have a clue at all. I don't even recognize the facial features," Tara McDonald said during a news conference outside her home.

McDonald also said she's not involved in her daughter's disappearance, but hasn't got back results of a police lie detector test she took.

"I know that at the end of the day, I have had nothing to do with this," she said.

The sketch of the woman -- she was seen walking with Tori after school April 8, in images from a nearby high school security video -- was based on a witness's memory, police said.

Who that woman is has baffled police and the public, and until the sketch was released late Tuesday, had no face.

"There are individuals in the family that have beliefs about the woman in the sketch. Our beliefs have been shared with the police," Rebecca Stafford said. "For me, personally, I can't say that I was completely taken aback by the picture. But at the same time I don't know the individual well enough."

Another family member said the woman looked a lot like a high school friend of Tori's father, Rodney Stafford.

http://intelligencer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1535825

That was haunting to read and to refresh to my memory. JMO

 

[Ardy]

I guess I was not very concise what I wanted to know was did she testify to these behaviours on the stand?(Being top of the range, beating up people in youth jail, taking others meds etc) I just do not remember reading any of this. Like I said I skimmed some of her testimony.

I believe they are accurate, but don't mind if someone corrects me.

It was a long list of tweets to keep up. Her record was quite disturbing.

Interesting to note she was picked up on a breach of probation........for missing an appointment with a psychologist..........after being referred by her probation officer because of her violent tendencies.

Who knows how this might have changed had she kept the appointment.

But then..........people have to want to be helped............no?

JMO

 

[Macright]

Thanks for that link.............

Gosh when you read that article.......all the lies...........man.

JMO

either the reporter is making this up as she goes along or certain people are changing their story with each interview.....talk about lies....wow..one interview could not identify the lady in the coat (and I say that loosely) another could tell the walk a mile away....strange...interesting... Just saying.....JMO (as my dear departed Grandmother used to say.."what a crowd he died for".....

 

[Ardy]

Rodney Stafford asked for the TRUTH.

IMO, one could also call MTR evil and sadistic, and, a coward.

What more could MR add you ask? Why is it so important for MR to stand up and say anything?

Are you serious?

He allegedly kidnapped, sexually assaulted, murdered and buried Rodney's 8 year old girl.

The LEAST he could do, is offer up some truth.

If there are people here who would even question Victoria's loved ones right to that, then there isn't too much else to say, is there?

JMO

MR is on trial for his life......and he would be wise to listen to his lawyers.

There is nothing to stop him from telling RS everything he knows after the trial, regardless of the verdict.

JMO

 

[Alison]

I believe they are accurate, but don't mind if someone corrects me.

It was a long list of tweets to keep up. Her record was quite disturbing.

Interesting to note she was picked up on a breach of probation........for missing an appointment with a psychologist..........after being referred by her probation officer because of her violent tendencies.

Who knows how this might have changed had she kept the appointment.

But then..........people have to want to be helped............no?

JMO

Okay thanks Ardy I will go re-read some of those tweets. There are just some I would rather not re-read and it is difficult to know when I might see one. Thanks for your input.
Like I said I do not think you made anything up just wanted confirmation this was said on the stand, not written articles etc.
I agree she did not want help but I also believe she did not know how to accept help because she was just so damn angry.
Sorry Ardy I was calling you Andy, I need me some glasses.